In the same vein as other recent threads, I'm curious which RPG system the ever humble and perspicacious posters here consider to be the best, or to have the best system, for mass battles? Please discard any genre prejudices at the door to the thread, as mass battles might be ranked armies on a faux-medieval battlefield, but could just as easily be attack-ships off the shoulder of Orion, tough hombres packing state-of-the-art firepower, or 30ft tall humanoid metal titans that dominate the battlefield. What RPG system or supplement provides the most fun, the most carnage, or the best RPG experience for mass battles, and why?
Its a bit of a sentimental favorite for me because it was my gateway drug for the whole hobby, but I'm still in love with Chainmail. Short, sweet, fun, complete. What else do you want?
Well, if you include miniature wargames, then i'd say either Hordes of the Things or Lion Rampant.
But if were talking strictly RPGs, then Army of Darkness, hands down.
I know a lot of people like the old Battlesystem rules for D&D... letting you take PCs into massive fights. I've never tried them myself.
For big space battles I've usually gone with a miniatures game, Full Thrust... which isn't all that different from the Mayday system we used to use for Traveller, but doesn't rely on hexes.
Quote from: Simlasa;828765I know a lot of people like the old Battlesystem rules for D&D... letting you take PCs into massive fights. I've never tried them myself.
I've used Daniel Collins' "Book of War" (as in deltasdnd.blogspot.com) which resolved a couple of battles in my D&D campaign very well. It is quick to play yet "statistically consistent with what would happen if D&D were played out with hundreds of men per side".
His approach is solid, but it ends up with simple rules, and although based upon OD&D you could apply the principles to any other RPG system. I changed it to fit my house rules quite easily. The key success was that the whole playing group remained engaged throughout the battle, when all but one of them have zero interest in a standard slow moving wargames.
In GM'ing TFT and GURPS, I would sometimes do large battles (up to about 200 fighters) and I considered them really fun because they were so grandiose and enormous. They could take multiple sessions to play out, but that just means more fun... for me. I'm a wargamer as well as a roleplayer. For really large-scale battles, I tend to use or make my own wargame rules, and if PC's are involved, play those out in TFT/GURPS and apply an appropriate effect (if any) at the wargame level.
I expect Warhammer could be a good system to use for mass battles, since it was first a miniatures battle game before it was a wargame, but I've never liked the style of Warhammer much, except for certain details.
Quote from: Skarg;828830since it was first a miniatures battle game before it was a wargame
that statement confuses the hell out of me
Oh whoops, because I wrote it wrong.
Warhammer was a miniatures battle game before they made role-playing game versions.
Quote from: Skarg;828834Oh whoops, because I wrote it wrong.
Warhammer was a miniatures battle game before they made role-playing game versions.
Yeah WFB 3rd and WHFR were made in tandem, and the two systems work together beautifully and share a number of supplements. Its not my favourite miniatures battle system, but I play it regularly in both its 3rd and most recent incarnation. Mordheim blends the line between skirmish game and rpg. Its a significant investment for people, but theres nothing quite like playing a game on a board with full terrain
(http://www.tabletophell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/0002.jpg)
Quote from: TristramEvans;828835Yeah WFB 3rd and WHFR were made in tandem, and the two systems work together beautifully and share a number of supplements. Its not my favourite miniatures battle system, but I play it regularly in both its 3rd and most recent incarnation. Mordheim blends the line between skirmish game and rpg. Its a significant investment for people, but theres nothing quite like playing a game on a board with full terrain
(http://www.tabletophell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/0002.jpg)
Oh, hubba, hubba- that's a beaut.
Quote from: TristramEvans;828762But if were talking strictly RPGs, then Army of Darkness, hands down.
Which also shows up in Savage World, same mechanic.
Quote from: TristramEvans;828762Well, if you include miniature wargames, then i'd say either Hordes of the Things or Lion Rampant.
Nah, no wargames divorced from RPGs. I'm talking about things that are part of, or at least written for, an RPG.
Quote from: TristramEvans;828762But if were talking strictly RPGs, then Army of Darkness, hands down.
I've never played Army of Darkness, but it seems to be much beloved. Why? What's so great about it for mass battles?
Quote from: TristramEvans;828835Yeah WFB 3rd and WHFR were made in tandem, and the two systems work together beautifully and share a number of supplements. Its not my favourite miniatures battle system, but I play it regularly in both its 3rd and most recent incarnation.
Yeah, this is one of the ones I was thinking of (i.e. WFB 3rd and WHFR). I also like WHFB, and still occasionally play 6th edition, but it's by no means my favourite miniatures game, either.
Quote from: TristramEvans;828835Mordheim blends the line between skirmish game and rpg. Its a significant investment for people, but theres nothing quite like playing a game on a board with full terrain
(//image%20of%20amazing%20Mordheim%20terrain)
Please tell me that's not actually your Mordheim table - I'd really rather not hate you.
Nice table!
I designed my own Mook/Mass Combat system for Earthdawn, based on groking that the oD&D adventures ran the groups of monsters w/ the same stats as "units" (just throw Xd20), and some of the concepts from Feng Shui, Reign, and Savage Worlds.
It's Unit Size scale is 2-20, so not used for Huge mass battles, but I wanted the PCs and other "Adept" characters to be important, but also to have hirelings. Also added Morale to the mechanics (no stock "morale" rules in Earthdawn). The system should be able to scale up to medium sized encounters (maybe a few hundred on each side).
My 3rd edition notes are here: http://www.earthdawncompendium.com/articles/show/4fdfd916db33ac2e42000013
Currently re-working them for 4th edition. Especially Morale.
I've used a mass battles boxed set called "War Law" that works with Rolemaster.
http://www.amazon.com/War-Law-Rolemaster-BOX-SET/dp/1558060995
It's very detailed, but quite fun and used it a few times in a RM Shadow World campaign set in Tanara.
A war broke out and the PCs were involved, so it was an excuse to use War Law.
It was a lot of fun actually.
Quote from: danskmacabre;828929I've used a mass battles boxed set called "War Law" that works with Rolemaster.
Ah! My eyes are bleeding! I actually own, and have attempted to use,
War Law. Calling it detailed is something of an understatement. Good to hear it's actually fun.
Quote from: Bobloblah;828901Please tell me that's not actually your Mordheim table - I'd really rather not hate you.
I wish, it'll be about a year before I get to that point. But I'm working on it. I'm doing 15mm scale for Mordheim though, so bigger city, smaller figs. Found a company that does great 15mm Ratmen, for my Skaven contingent.
Quote from: Bobloblah;828900I've never played Army of Darkness, but it seems to be much beloved. Why? What's so great about it for mass battles?
It's very good at simulating mass battle while simultaneously making player choice count for something and allow player characters to get involved in fantastic one on one battles with heavies amidst the action. I adapted the system for my FASERIP retrovamp, Phaserip, as can be seen in the thread of that title.
Quote from: TristramEvans;828941It's very good at simulating mass battle while simultaneously making player choice count for something and allow player characters to get involved in fantastic one on one battles with heavies amidst the action. I adapted the system for my FASERIP retrovamp, Phaserip, as can be seen in the thread of that title.
If I remember correctly, the man who created it went on to create Savage Worlds. Shane Lacy Hensley is the writer of both games. So if you can't find a copy of the Army of Darkness book (wish I still had my hard copy) you can get the same mass combat system from any Savage World's Core Book.
Quote from: Bobloblah;828935Ah! My eyes are bleeding! I actually own, and have attempted to use, War Law. Calling it detailed is something of an understatement. Good to hear it's actually fun.
Yeah, I hear you. Fortunately, all the people I was running RM for knew RM very well, so took to War Law fairly quickly, as it wasn't just me trying to work out how it worked.
Also, some of the players in my RM campaign played a lot of wargames anyway.
The nice thing about War Law is that it can be played with counters on an 8.5 x 11 hex grid. Sure you might want to do bigger battles but for a lot of games it makes for a nice little side board to the roleplaying action rather than requiring a full table.
Quote from: TristramEvans;828941I adapted the system for my FASERIP retrovamp, Phaserip, as can be seen in the thread of that title.
Yes, I've been following your Phaserip thread. I'll have a closer look at that section to get a sense of it. I'm a huge fan of
FASERIP (although I've been using
ICONS these days), and I like a lot of what you've done.
Quote from: danskmacabre;828952Yeah, I hear you. Fortunately, all the people I was running RM for knew RM very well, so took to War Law fairly quickly, as it wasn't just me trying to work out how it worked.
Also, some of the players in my RM campaign played a lot of wargames anyway.
No doubt that helped. I think I'm the only one left in our group who has ever played
Chartmast-I mean,
Rolemaster. You know, I love the game, particularly in its
MERP incarnation, and wanted to run it again, but character generation alone is a real barrier to entry (as I derail my own thread).
Have you ever used
Sea Law?
Quote from: David Johansen;828984The nice thing about War Law is that it can be played with counters on an 8.5 x 11 hex grid. Sure you might want to do bigger battles but for a lot of games it makes for a nice little side board to the roleplaying action rather than requiring a full table.
This is very true, and is one of things that originally convinced me to buy
War Law.
Birthright is one of my players favorite for mass battles.
I know another player who liked the mass combat system in BECMI or Cyclopedia. Not sure what it was called. Warmachine?
Another player liked the Melee/Wizard combat rules for before it evolved into the TFT RPG.
Yet another was really into Mighty Empires from GW. GW rethemed it into Planet Empires apparently.
Quote from: Omega;829149Birthright is one of my players favorite for mass battles.
Oh, yeah! Forgot about this one.
Birthright, as a complete package, was pretty cool. Definitely an interesting departure for TSR, and it turned the game into something resembling Diplomacy.
Quote from: Omega;829149I know another player who liked the mass combat system in BECMI or Cyclopedia. Not sure what it was called. Warmachine?
Yup,
Warmachine (and
Siege Machine). Loved this at the time, particularly as compared to
Battle System. Very light, abstract system for resolving battles between fantasy kingdoms. It did have a few quirks, but still...
Speaking of
War Machine and
Battle System, my go to replacement for these is now
Domains at War from Autarch. It's nominally for
Adventurer Conqueror King, but it would work for any TSR-era version of D&D or close clone. It has two possible ways of resolving battles, one more abstract in the
War Machine vein, the other a hex-and-counter wargame as 1st edition
Battle System was (although the two games don't really resemble each other).
I haven't yet used the hex wargame as part of an ongoing campaign, only the abstract resolution. However, I have played the hex version as a standalone wargame, and it is excellent. With the PDF of D@W: Battles (covers the detailed wargame) only $7.50, I'd say it's potentially worth picking up on its own for the fantasy hex wargame
Domains at War also has really good coverage of topics beyond the battles themselves (e.g. manoeuvring, scouting, supplying, and sabotaging armies, and so on) which can be used to really ground the battles in the larger campaign (or ignored, if you just want a straightforward clash of arms). It handles heroes leading armies, and the impact they can have on battles. Sieges, and how to resolve them abstractly, in detail, or a combination of the two. Different scales, from 30-man units up to units nearly 2,000 men strong. Dozens of standard units. Rules for building
any arbitrary unit from D&D statted monsters (e.g. ghouls riding nightmares, an orc chieftain riding a wyvern, a unit of elven spellcasters, an elephant carrying ballistae, a mixed unit of dwarven spearmen and centaur bowman... you get the idea). I really can't say enough good things about it.
Full Disclosure: I was a backer of the Kickstarter, and I offered and did some of the proofreading and editing on D@W.
Quote from: Omega;829149Yet another was really into Mighty Empires from GW. GW rethemed it into Planet Empires apparently.
I'm not sure about this. Originally, Mighty Empires was a standalone, big-box game from GW that could be used as a campaign system for WHFB. You built a map out of cardboard hexes, moved plastic unit markers around, built capitals and other structures, engaged in espionage and magic (oh, yeah... you could also fight battles); it was pretty cool, although not great as a standalone game (and campaigns with WHFB took forever due to the length of a game of Warhammer and no enforced endgame).
More recently, GW put out a box of injection-molded plastic hex tiles with which you could make a campaign map for WHFB. They also included some incredibly minimalist campaign rules in the box, but the new Mighty Empires had none of the charm of the original. The components themselves are decent, though. They've also since made a WH40k version, which included different tiles (e.g. hive cities, manufactorums, space ports, etc.). This would be the Planetary Empires you're referring to. It's also nothing like the original Mighty Empires game.
Another good skirmish wargame set is Heroscape. And it has that D&D extension as well.
The 3d terrain is pretty neet too. Was a great buy for the price when it came out for those starters.
The D&D set was geared for cavern/underdark adventuring. Later sets expanded indoor and out.
(http://www.toytitan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Campaign-2.jpg)
Dark Albion will have a very simple, very abstract system of handling large-scale battles.
GI Joes and BB guns is still the best way. Plus the occasional book of matches and can of hairspray to simulate flamethrowers.
Quote from: Matt;829337GI Joes and BB guns is still the best way. Plus the occasional book of matches and can of hairspray to simulate flamethrowers.
That is how my little brother lost all the hair on his arm. Except he was using a can of bug spray...:nono:
Quote from: Omega;829340That is how my little brother lost all the hair on his arm. Except he was using a can of bug spray...:nono:
And for urban warfare we used Lego men in a Lego city plus BB guns, etc. indoors--pockmarked walls from ricochets was an unintended consequence.
We used to have the Crossbows & Catapults game. Apparently its been re-released as Battlegrounds. Now with cannons!
Rubber bands are superior because they don't destroy the army men.
You get one thin one for a rifle, three for a machine gun, a thick one for a tank gun or a bazooka. Figures can move one popsicle stick length tanks can move two and airplanes four. But you have to get properly sized airplanes and not those stupid little out of scale ones, which can be thrown from the edge of the battle field as one shot cruise missiles.
...and is anyone using rubber bands or BB-guns for resolving RPG mass-combat? I'm thinking the answer is no...
Another one I've had good success with is Lightning Strike. While technically not an RPG supplement, Lightning Strike 2nd Edition is broadly compatible with the Jovian Chronicles RPG, a game which cries out for large space battles in the anime tradition. Lightning Strike lets you do this without getting bogged down by the Silhouette Tactical rules during really large battles, as Silhouette Tactical is really a skirmish scale system. I will say that it's important to be aware of the lethality of the system (true of Silhouette generally), and it helps enormously if one simply doesn't make the assumption that destroyed units automatically result in dead pilots.
Lightning Strike, much like Domains at War: Battles, is also a really good standalone (space) wargame.
We're entering into H.G. Wells' "Little Wars" territory here.
Quote from: RPGPundit;829915We're entering into H.G. Wells' "Little Wars" territory here.
Speaking of, I saw this at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry on the shelf in the gift shop:
http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Weapons-Mass-Destruction-Build/dp/1613745486/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=10HE469EVH7MA9GHNBCS
I expect the effective ranges may be a bit on the high side for miniature warfare.
Quote from: koewn;829926Speaking of, I saw this at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry on the shelf in the gift shop:
http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Weapons-Mass-Destruction-Build/dp/1613745486/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=10HE469EVH7MA9GHNBCS
I expect the effective ranges may be a bit on the high side for miniature warfare.
Neat!
For a while it looked like Hasbro was going to market the D&D Kree-O as a sort of Crossbows & Catapults battler. But havent seen a peep on that in months and its not in stores locally that I've seen.
Quote from: Bobloblah;828985No doubt that helped. I think I'm the only one left in our group who has ever played Chartmast-I mean, Rolemaster. You know, I love the game, particularly in its MERP incarnation, and wanted to run it again, but character generation alone is a real barrier to entry (as I derail my own thread).
Have you ever used Sea Law?
In the early days, character gen took ages.
It helped we were all there to run someone through char gen though.
Later, when decent excel spreadsheet character generators came out, character gen was really easy. and levelling up was even easier.
No recalculating stat bonuses, it was all automatic.
All in all, I had a great time playing and running RM. I ran RM2 and RMSS and loved both versions.
I have since collected most of the RMFRP books (Which are very similar to RMSS, just modularised), but just to read for fun. I don't think I could be bothered to run it again, even if I COULD find players for it, which I doubt.
I know they're working on a new version of RM and I'll be interested to see how that goes.
It'll have to be slimmed down a lot for me to run it, although I'll probably buy it for old times sake and a good read.
I never got, read or used Sea Law. By the time that came out, I was more often running Spacemaster than Rolemaster.
I DID buy Star Strike, Armored Assault and most of the material that came out for both of them and used them a lot in my Spacemaster campaign.
They were both great fun. I probably used Star Strike more than Armored Assault though and it worked very well with Spacemaster.
Quote from: Omega;829273Another good skirmish wargame set is Heroscape. And it has that D&D extension as well.
The 3d terrain is pretty neet too. Was a great buy for the price when it came out for those starters.
The D&D set was geared for cavern/underdark adventuring. Later sets expanded indoor and out.
(http://www.toytitan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Campaign-2.jpg)
I've played that quite a few times when I lived in the UK.
A friend there owned loads of the pieces for that.
It was really fun actually.
The terrain and how it worked looked and played out very well.