There's a pretty interesting discussion over at tBP in a thread (a spin off actually) started by Jack Spencer  :

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=342993

Some interesting questions are being asked :

QuoteJack Spencer wrote:
What sort of things that happen in play help you to give a crap about your character?

What sort of things that happen in play don't help you to give a crap about your character and may even cause you to lose interest??

and follow up:

QuoteNjorhg wrote:
1, What makes you actually give a crap about your character? (Covered here?)
2, What makes you actually give a crap about about another player's character?
3, What makes you actually give a crap about one of your players' characters?

Also check out Jack's post about "informed attributes" :

QuoteJack wrote:
In bad movie circles, there is the term Informed Attribute:
"Informed Attributes (n): When a character displays a mediocre or even inept level of skill in some discipline (anything from dancing to writing to fighting), yet we are shown other characters lauding their talents. This is to signal the audience that, at least in the universe presented in the film, these people are to be considered as highly proficient at their craft, however much this belies the evidence of our eyes and/or ears. EXAMPLE: When we watch actor 'Frankie Fane' chew up the scenery in The Oscar, yet learn through dialog that his performance was considered to be skilled. Informed Attributes can also pertain to non-apparent character traits, as when one character notes another's purportedly high intelligence or sexual magnetism."

Pretty much everything on the character sheet or in the character background is an informed attribute. Unless it manages to actually work in play. This doesn't happen very often IME.

Regards,
David R

Of course Jack has not experienced PCs doing cool things in play "very often IME" - he hasn't had a gaming experience for several years. He is the BNG poster child at tBP.

It's certainly the case that many gamers will say, "but my character is X, it says so on my character sheet." This is why I give XP awards for roleplaying well, which I define as "we know what your character's traits are without looking at your character sheet". Some things which are sometimes but not always showing a character's abilities are rewarded with XP: bravery - defined as doing anything personally confronting to your character, which often may be not fighting - and for constructive ideas and actions which help the mission to completion or keep the game moving.

It takes a good player to find opportunities to display their character's traits and abilities, and to then display them in a fun and interesting way, and it takes a good GM to make sure the players have opportunities.

Because Jack has not gamed for several years, he confuses some past bad gaming experiences with gaming in general. For example, he says, "rpg combat is sitting there waiting for your turn to miss." This is talking about bad gaming experiences, really.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron- he hasn't had a gaming experience for several years. He is the BNG poster child at tBP.

/Offtopic

Give it a rest. You and Bitter Non-Gamers are becoming like Pundy and his Swine.  :pundit:
It's distracting from the rest of your posts.

Quote from: O'Borg/Offtopic

Give it a rest.

Exactly.

I posed these questions to my players and I got some very interesting responses. The main theme was that what makes them give a "crap" about their characters is the interaction between "all" the characters in the campaign. They gave various examples of the relationships between their characters and other pcs which I had very little to do with.

So I think there are two forces at play here. The "stuff" I do - the campaign, npcs etc and the relationships/interactions they forge on their own. Rewards earned, failure suffered, long term play etc were part of it but the main thing was how their characters interacted with each other.

Regards,
David R

Jack Spencer does not game. When asked, he responds that he does not wish to game. He is, then, not a gamer. When asked his opinions of gaming and gamers, these opinions are entirely negative and angry. He is, then, bitter.

Thus, Bitter Non-Gamer.

Would I ask a misogynist for advice on my love life? Would I ask an anti-semite for advice on halachah? Would I care for the opinion of a PETA member on how well-done my steak should be? Would I ask a Red Sox fan what he thought of the the new captain of the Yankees?

I stand by my point: his comments are simply talking about bad gaming. Bad gaming is bad; this gives us no particularly profound insights into gaming.

If you think my posts have points of silliness and stupidity, by all means put me down for them; but respond to my points of substance.

Is it not true that a player whose roleplaying consists of pointing to what's on their character sheet is an unusually bad roleplayer? Are not most roleplayers better than that? If most roleplayers are better than that, is it not the case that this "informed attributes" business is a load of old bollocks?

If any of this is wrong, then by all means, abuse me - but correct me also. Or did you go to the RPGPundit/TonyLB School of Debating, and you confuse abuse for argument?

What the hell are you talking about Kyle ? I posted these questions because I think they are interesting questions. If you got nothing to add except shit on Jack Spencer well then, go ahead, this seems to be the site for it. Like I said, to me these are interesting questions and  hopefully others find them interesting too, no great loss if they don't.

Regards,
David R

I pretty much agree that the informed attribute spiel is a load of bollocks. I also think that it shows an inexperience with systems in general. In d&d, are feats really informed attributes? Do they really have no affect on play beyond what is written on the character sheet? Or is he really talking about about play experiences that don't match genre conventions or his own expectations?

Wow, i've got a +5 to making wickerwork chairs! I rock!...then i always fail my skill checks 'cos the difficulty is set too high all the time. I can stunt doing a flying mantis kick! But my stunts fail some of the time, bummer...Informed attribute.

I wonder which he is really talking about.

Quote from: One Horse TownI pretty much agree that the informed attribute spiel is a load of bollocks. I also think that it shows an inexperience with systems in general.

I'm not 100% clear, but I think Jack as quoted in the orignal post was referring to Movies rather than games, and informed attribute is one where the other characters in the movie stand around saying "Wow, he really knows how to " when quite clearly they don't have any particular skill in it.

Flipping that to gaming, I think he means that having an attribute or skill that says "Is an expert pistol shot" is like an "Informed Attribute" until the character has demonstrated the skill in actual play.
So if the character sheet says "Expert Pistol shot" but the character is afflicted with bad luck and poor die rolls, then you have to play the character as such.
Er, possibly. :confused:

What Kyle's doing is known in rhetoric as "poisoning the well".

But...in this case I agree that the claim about "informed attributes" (and the generally disbelieving tone of his comments on what other people offer) is a result of just not understanding the games or style of gaming Jack's ragging on.

The style: drop your preconceived notions, play the f'ing game and take what comes to you. You aren't entitled to be cool because of some numbers on the sheet.

What you're talking about David, the developments in play, I agree with, however that doesn't mean that the sheet is worthless.

I think what makes me give a crap about the game is a few interrelated things:

1. Being able to alter the game world in some way. Not necessarily large ways, but enough so that I feel my actions make a difference.

2. Getting enough of what I want. If I set a goal and put enough into effort into it, I can achieve it.

3. Not getting everything I want. Somethings just don't work out, adding conflict to the game and giving me a goal to move toward.

Seanchai

I like Seanchai's list.

As a player what keeps me coming back:

1) I want to see what events and encounters my character will run into, and I want to find out what he does in response. I'm interested in finding out how my character's story*turns out.

2) I want my character to use his cool abilities, and I want to get a few more cool abilities as time goes on. I think characters (as they develop in game) are interesting structures.








*Story is what happens when a character goes places and does stuff. Despite the abuse and re-definitioning this word has seen in recent years, thats what it means.