Quote from: Omega on July 10, 2021, 08:59:40 PMFor a one off BX session I got a character with this for stats.
STR:8, INT:5, WIS:9, DEX:8, CON:9, CHA:13
Feeble Fighter was tempting. Barely Literate Elf though was too funny to pass up. We dub thee Death, the Elf! 

The important thing is to have fun playing the character. Going strictly by the book a character must have an intelligence of 9 or greater to be an elf. But a barely literate dwarf or cleric might be just as amusing to play.

Quote from: mightybrain on July 11, 2021, 08:30:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on July 10, 2021, 08:59:40 PMFor a one off BX session I got a character with this for stats.
STR:8, INT:5, WIS:9, DEX:8, CON:9, CHA:13
Feeble Fighter was tempting. Barely Literate Elf though was too funny to pass up. We dub thee Death, the Elf! 

The important thing is to have fun playing the character. Going strictly by the book a character must have an intelligence of 9 or greater to be an elf. But a barely literate dwarf or cleric might be just as amusing to play.

um... No such restriction in BX. All the INT 5 there means is the character is totally illiterate regarding common. (But apparently can read and write Elven.)
STR 8 is just a -1 to hit and damage in melee. and -1 on open doors.
DEX 8 is a +1 penalty to AC, and a -1 penalty to ranged to hit and to initiative.

I could drop the WIS 9 down to a 7 to bump STR or DEX up to 9 and thus remove the penalty.

In AD&D though assigning those rolls allows for a small bit of leeway in what could play.

And heres another oddball for BX.
STR:9, INT:9, WIS:9, DEX:11, CON:11, CHA:11
I get weird patterns like that with surprising frequency when rolling 3d6 in order for some reason.

Quote from: Omega on July 12, 2021, 10:06:51 PM

And heres another oddball for BX.
STR:9, INT:9, WIS:9, DEX:11, CON:11, CHA:11
I get weird patterns like that with surprising frequency when rolling 3d6 in order for some reason.

Not that oddball. It's a very normal set of stats, and humans are good at recognizing patterns, so it's likely that a high proportion of normal rolls will seem ordered in some way. After all, one of the most common arrays is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

That's very different from the the four 18s and two 17s, which is so unlikely we can safely dismiss it.

I admit I've threatened to field-execute my dice on a couple of occasions

Using this.

Hireling: Str 11, Int 15, Wis 9, Dex 10, Con 13, Cha 5. This could be a decent if unlikable magic-user, but Cha 5 - "here or lower the character can only be an assassin," and they don't have the stats to be an assassin, so this character cannot have a class, and is set aside to be an NPC hireling. Well-educated and smart, but fucking annoying. Let's call him Ackshually.

Thief: Str 6, Int 10, Wis 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Cha 11. A weakling, but otherwise ordinary, and could be an ordinary magic-user, cleric or thief. As an MU they'd struggle a bit with spells beyond their starting ones, as a cleric they'd be unremarkable, a thief would probably be the best choice, though they can't carry much loot, and will have the overhead press of a small female. Perhaps that's what she is? She takes the gems, someone else can carry the coin. We'll call her Slight.

Fighter: Str 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Dex 7, Con 14, Cha 7. This one qualifies as a fighter, tough but clumsy and a bit of an annoying bastard. We'll call him Mongrel.

Cleric: Str 15, Int 13, Wis 15, Dex 11, Con 10, Cha 11. This qualifies for any of the basic four classes, but the 15s tempt me to say he'd be either a wise fighter or a strong cleric. But Strength 15 offers nothing but some increased encumbrance and slightly better BB/LG, whereas Wis 15 gives 2x 1st and 1x 2nd extra spells daily, which could help the party a lot. I think I'd make this one a cleric, give him a club and call him Bludgeon.

Magic-User: Str 7, Int 11, Wis 8, Dex 11, Con 6, Cha 15. I'm a bit worried about this one. They qualify for either magic-user or thief, but won't be able to carry much loot, and with Con 6 they could be slain by a dodgy curry. A thief is expected to fight a bit, which this one definitely shouldn't, and magic-users don't have many hit points anyway, so MU is the way to go, I think. With Charisma 15 they'll get +15% on reaction rolls, so can talk their way out of some fights, and they'll get +15% for their men-at-arm followers - and what does a 1st level magic-user spend their starting coin on but men-at-arms? Let's call her Elvira.

With a player who has been sensible and read the back of the PHB as outlined by Bill, any of the four could be quite playable and useful characters. And the funny thing is, the ones with good stats tend to get killed more often than those with poor or ordinary stats. That's because the player with the Str 18/00 and 10 hit point fighter has him take risks, the player with the Str 11 and 5 hit point fighter tends to be more cautious and think about what he's doing. Avoid unnecessary encounters - especially if you're created using 3d6 in order.

Quote from: Omega on July 12, 2021, 10:06:51 PMum... No such restriction in BX.

Page B9. Elves, paragraph 3 in my copy.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 13, 2021, 08:37:57 AM
Using this.

Hireling: Str 11, Int 15, Wis 9, Dex 10, Con 13, Cha 5. This could be a decent if unlikable magic-user, but Cha 5 - "here or lower the character can only be an assassin," and they don't have the stats to be an assassin, so this character cannot have a class, and is set aside to be an NPC hireling. Well-educated and smart, but fucking annoying. Let's call him Ackshually.

Thief: Str 6, Int 10, Wis 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Cha 11. A weakling, but otherwise ordinary, and could be an ordinary magic-user, cleric or thief. As an MU they'd struggle a bit with spells beyond their starting ones, as a cleric they'd be unremarkable, a thief would probably be the best choice, though they can't carry much loot, and will have the overhead press of a small female. Perhaps that's what she is? She takes the gems, someone else can carry the coin. We'll call her Slight.

Fighter: Str 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Dex 7, Con 14, Cha 7. This one qualifies as a fighter, tough but clumsy and a bit of an annoying bastard. We'll call him Mongrel.

Cleric: Str 15, Int 13, Wis 15, Dex 11, Con 10, Cha 11. This qualifies for any of the basic four classes, but the 15s tempt me to say he'd be either a wise fighter or a strong cleric. But Strength 15 offers nothing but some increased encumbrance and slightly better BB/LG, whereas Wis 15 gives 2x 1st and 1x 2nd extra spells daily, which could help the party a lot. I think I'd make this one a cleric, give him a club and call him Bludgeon.

Magic-User: Str 7, Int 11, Wis 8, Dex 11, Con 6, Cha 15. I'm a bit worried about this one. They qualify for either magic-user or thief, but won't be able to carry much loot, and with Con 6 they could be slain by a dodgy curry. A thief is expected to fight a bit, which this one definitely shouldn't, and magic-users don't have many hit points anyway, so MU is the way to go, I think. With Charisma 15 they'll get +15% on reaction rolls, so can talk their way out of some fights, and they'll get +15% for their men-at-arm followers - and what does a 1st level magic-user spend their starting coin on but men-at-arms? Let's call her Elvira.

With a player who has been sensible and read the back of the PHB as outlined by Bill, any of the four could be quite playable and useful characters. And the funny thing is, the ones with good stats tend to get killed more often than those with poor or ordinary stats. That's because the player with the Str 18/00 and 10 hit point fighter has him take risks, the player with the Str 11 and 5 hit point fighter tends to be more cautious and think about what he's doing. Avoid unnecessary encounters - especially if you're created using 3d6 in order.

And that, friends, is why sometimes 'the old style' isn't necessarily the best.

The hireling would make a perfectly serviceable magic-user -- but because of the 'must be an assassin' rule for low Charisma, he's actually (ackshually?) locked out of everything. He can't be an assassin, because his other attributes aren't high enough.

The thief is... okay, I guess?

Fighter's no great shakes as Con 14 means he doesn't even get a HP bonus. His system shock and resurrection chances are pretty good, though.

Cleric is definitely the rough gem in this lot. With a Wisdom 15, Bludgeon gets a +1 to save against magical effects as well as extra spells. While his Str 15 won't give him any attack bonuses, it does buff his carrying capacity enough to kit him out in heavier armor.

The magic-user... if you could swap Int and Cha, you'd have a pretty effective one. But that Int 11 means Elvira has a 45% chance to learn spells, and can only learn seven spells per level. She won't be casting spells above 5th level, either.

Method IV from the 1st edition DMG involves rolling 3d6 in order, 12 times, and picking your favorite.

Here's a 4 member party randomly rolled that way:

Half-elf fighter/magic-user: S 15, I 17, W 7, D 8, C 16, Ch 11 (74 points). That's a really good roll, with the scores in useful stats. (The second best option was a 73 point character with two 15s, which doesn't amount to much.). The obvious choice would be an elf fighter/magic-user, but that would drop Con to 15, and halve the hp bonus. A half-elf fighter/magic-user, then. Maximum levels f 6/mu 7.

Cleric: S 10, I 9, W 11, D 11, C 12, Ch 16 (69 points). Completely unexceptional, except for Charisma. Which, if you use hirelings and henchmen, is kind of the god stat. It's a toss-up between fighter and cleric, but I'll pick cleric because Strength isn't that great. The second-best alternative (68 points, S 13, I 10, W 14, D 10, C 16, Ch 5), is also a good choice, if I wanted to play a fighter with no personality. But I'll stick with the cleric.

Fighter: S 11, I 10, W 13, D 11, C 14, Ch 15 (74 points) is the best total, but completely uninspiring. Fortunately, I also rolled two 72 point characters, and one of them has an exceptional score: S 14, I 13, W 9, D 11, C 7, Ch 18. So I'll use the that array, instead. How about a fighter? A natural leader of men-at-arms, and strong enough to wear decent armor, but a little sickly. Which might not be the worst situation for a fighter, because it's not low enough to affect hp (Con 6 or less needed to get a penalty to hp).

Magic-user: S 7, I 18, W 11, D 15, C 12, Ch 18 (81 points) just shows how swingy the process can get. That's a full 7 points higher than any of the other sets of 12 characters, and I didn't cheat or reroll multiple times to get that result. Not to mention, I'm ending up with 3 out of 4 characters with Charisma as their highest stat. In any case, a clear magic-user. Can't carry a lot, but wizard robes don't weigh much. The Dex bump to AC is nice. The maxxed out Int means they can learn new spells easily, and can potentially learn to cast 9th level spells. The high Cha would make them a good vizier-type, excelling at politics and manipulation.

The four of them can recruit a total of 41 henchmen (with normal Cha, I'd be limited to 4 per PC). It's an interesting group, and one that I would have never ended up with with point buy.

Supposedly; Gygax himself allowed 4d6 drop the lowest, and arrange as desired at his table.  Players also started out at 3rd Level.  Gygax also allowed a Balrog PC in one of his games.  Therefore, I say just do whatever makes you happy.

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 13, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Supposedly; Gygax himself allowed 4d6 drop the lowest, and arrange as desired at his table.  Players also started out at 3rd Level.  Gygax also allowed a Balrog PC in one of his games.  Therefore, I say just do whatever makes you happy.

Many people either really enjoy the whole experience of "play what fate has dealt to me and see how it goes" or the other extreme of playing the character they have in mind.  Some like a mix of that--often a very specific mix, such as, "fate handed me 1, 2, 3 and from there I take control." 

Problem is that it's not at all rare for a given group to have some of both extremes and 1 or 2 in the middle.  So "do whatever makes you happy" is a plural you.  It's fairly rare to find a player that is happy to play all of those approaches.  The longer the game is planning to run, the more it matters, too.

My problem is that I want those surprise parties like Pat rolled up above, that you would never do with point buy, but I've got a couple of regular players that want a lot of control and others that leans more towards control.  (And one players that is just happy to play, doesn't care how we make characters.)  Otherwise, we are highly compatible.  In practice, this means that we switch it up a lot so that we all get what we want sometimes. 

I have sometimes flirted with the idea of building a highly random character generation method (much more random than most games), where the players gets to assert control at any 3 points but otherwise plays what they are dealt.  That is, the normal game is you roll for your character race, but you can instead use that as one of your 3 picks and simply assert your race choice.  It would be a hassle for something that I'm not sure would work.  The idea is that most of the players that don't like random stuff tend to focus on particular aspects that they don't like as random, and those vary by the player.

Watching all these useless characters being created, doomed to never ever hit the game table, certainly gives me a hit of nostalgia.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2021, 10:36:16 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 13, 2021, 08:37:57 AM
Using this.

Hireling: Str 11, Int 15, Wis 9, Dex 10, Con 13, Cha 5. This could be a decent if unlikable magic-user, but Cha 5 - "here or lower the character can only be an assassin," and they don't have the stats to be an assassin, so this character cannot have a class, and is set aside to be an NPC hireling. Well-educated and smart, but fucking annoying. Let's call him Ackshually.

Thief: Str 6, Int 10, Wis 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Cha 11. A weakling, but otherwise ordinary, and could be an ordinary magic-user, cleric or thief. As an MU they'd struggle a bit with spells beyond their starting ones, as a cleric they'd be unremarkable, a thief would probably be the best choice, though they can't carry much loot, and will have the overhead press of a small female. Perhaps that's what she is? She takes the gems, someone else can carry the coin. We'll call her Slight.

Fighter: Str 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Dex 7, Con 14, Cha 7. This one qualifies as a fighter, tough but clumsy and a bit of an annoying bastard. We'll call him Mongrel.

Cleric: Str 15, Int 13, Wis 15, Dex 11, Con 10, Cha 11. This qualifies for any of the basic four classes, but the 15s tempt me to say he'd be either a wise fighter or a strong cleric. But Strength 15 offers nothing but some increased encumbrance and slightly better BB/LG, whereas Wis 15 gives 2x 1st and 1x 2nd extra spells daily, which could help the party a lot. I think I'd make this one a cleric, give him a club and call him Bludgeon.

Magic-User: Str 7, Int 11, Wis 8, Dex 11, Con 6, Cha 15. I'm a bit worried about this one. They qualify for either magic-user or thief, but won't be able to carry much loot, and with Con 6 they could be slain by a dodgy curry. A thief is expected to fight a bit, which this one definitely shouldn't, and magic-users don't have many hit points anyway, so MU is the way to go, I think. With Charisma 15 they'll get +15% on reaction rolls, so can talk their way out of some fights, and they'll get +15% for their men-at-arm followers - and what does a 1st level magic-user spend their starting coin on but men-at-arms? Let's call her Elvira.

With a player who has been sensible and read the back of the PHB as outlined by Bill, any of the four could be quite playable and useful characters. And the funny thing is, the ones with good stats tend to get killed more often than those with poor or ordinary stats. That's because the player with the Str 18/00 and 10 hit point fighter has him take risks, the player with the Str 11 and 5 hit point fighter tends to be more cautious and think about what he's doing. Avoid unnecessary encounters - especially if you're created using 3d6 in order.

And that, friends, is why sometimes 'the old style' isn't necessarily the best.

The hireling would make a perfectly serviceable magic-user -- but because of the 'must be an assassin' rule for low Charisma, he's actually (ackshually?) locked out of everything. He can't be an assassin, because his other attributes aren't high enough.

The thief is... okay, I guess?

Fighter's no great shakes as Con 14 means he doesn't even get a HP bonus. His system shock and resurrection chances are pretty good, though.

Cleric is definitely the rough gem in this lot. With a Wisdom 15, Bludgeon gets a +1 to save against magical effects as well as extra spells. While his Str 15 won't give him any attack bonuses, it does buff his carrying capacity enough to kit him out in heavier armor.

The magic-user... if you could swap Int and Cha, you'd have a pretty effective one. But that Int 11 means Elvira has a 45% chance to learn spells, and can only learn seven spells per level. She won't be casting spells above 5th level, either.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Very true, my friend!

I myself love random generation for stats, though I prefer 4d6 drop the lowest, so that players on average will get reasonably competent characters. The game world--at least my world of Thandor--is a very brutal, harsh place, with many challenges and things to worry about. I've seen players get fairly despondent over the fact that they have to fight against a suite of inherent problems and deficiencies with weak, pathetic, retarded characters--in trying to deal with the horrendous challenges of such a harsh and brutal world. A decent argument can be made that such pathetic characters should more than likely stay home safe on the farm--and leave the heroic adventuring to people that aren't so pathetic, weak, and incompetent. Playing such deficient characters can be fun for some--but many others aren't terribly amused by their character's consistent failures, fuck-ups, and constant mediocrity.

Being consistently mediocre can *drain* the fun from playing the game for many players, as their pathetic character experiences a weekly diet of "The wondrous ways I failed" instead of experiencing any kind of consistent success. I can sympathize with such players. Players definitely don't need to be "superheroes"--but being stuck with a drooling, incompetent buffoon isn't something I think a lot of players want to sign up for.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on July 13, 2021, 05:07:10 PM
Watching all these useless characters being created, doomed to never ever hit the game table, certainly gives me a hit of nostalgia.

Greetings!

*Laughing* So true, huh Shasarak?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 13, 2021, 03:13:11 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 13, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Supposedly; Gygax himself allowed 4d6 drop the lowest, and arrange as desired at his table.  Players also started out at 3rd Level.  Gygax also allowed a Balrog PC in one of his games.  Therefore, I say just do whatever makes you happy.

Many people either really enjoy the whole experience of "play what fate has dealt to me and see how it goes" or the other extreme of playing the character they have in mind.  Some like a mix of that--often a very specific mix, such as, "fate handed me 1, 2, 3 and from there I take control." 

Problem is that it's not at all rare for a given group to have some of both extremes and 1 or 2 in the middle.  So "do whatever makes you happy" is a plural you.  It's fairly rare to find a player that is happy to play all of those approaches.  The longer the game is planning to run, the more it matters, too.

My problem is that I want those surprise parties like Pat rolled up above, that you would never do with point buy, but I've got a couple of regular players that want a lot of control and others that leans more towards control.  (And one players that is just happy to play, doesn't care how we make characters.)  Otherwise, we are highly compatible.  In practice, this means that we switch it up a lot so that we all get what we want sometimes. 

I have sometimes flirted with the idea of building a highly random character generation method (much more random than most games), where the players gets to assert control at any 3 points but otherwise plays what they are dealt.  That is, the normal game is you roll for your character race, but you can instead use that as one of your 3 picks and simply assert your race choice.  It would be a hassle for something that I'm not sure would work.  The idea is that most of the players that don't like random stuff tend to focus on particular aspects that they don't like as random, and those vary by the player.

My game's default gives players a choice of three arrays; balanced (3, 2, 2, 1, 1, -1), strong (3, 3, 1, 1, 0, -1) and focused (4, 2, 1, 0, 0, -1).

One of the available optional rules; this one not even requiring the GM's permission to use in normal play; randomizes which array you use and then randomly assigns each score to an attribute.

Since I spent a LOT of work making every attribute matter in some fashion to every class (each class has one or two primary attributes and a class feature choice that grants options based on your choice of another stat) you're guaranteed a viable character that will probably even be at least okay at any class you wish to take; you just won't know what form that "okay" will take.

Quote from: SHARK on July 13, 2021, 05:59:34 PM
Being consistently mediocre can *drain* the fun from playing the game for many players, as their pathetic character experiences a weekly diet of "The wondrous ways I failed" instead of experiencing any kind of consistent success. I can sympathize with such players. Players definitely don't need to be "superheroes"--but being stuck with a drooling, incompetent buffoon isn't something I think a lot of players want to sign up for.

I don't tend to use straight 3d6 in D&D, but I regularly play Call of Cthulhu, where the PCs are typically not very heroic and frequently experience failure, insanity, and/or death. I've often used straight 3d6 in CoC, though I've also used point buy which still leaves characters quite average. Despite this - or perhaps because of this - CoC is very popular as a horror game.

Consistent success almost never happens in CoC, in my experience, but players still really enjoy the "hard mode" aspect of horror play. For example, my second-to-last PC in our last Masks campaign died after I rolled a critical failure when throwing dynamite at the enemy. I dropped it in the middle of our firing line, and it could have killed a bunch of us, but I elected to jump on the stick and killed myself to protect the others. That was a heroic and well-remembered death.

I think there's a lot of fun to be had playing all three of hapless investigators, heroic adventurers, and superheroes.