In BECMI/AD&D, the 2 for 1 exchange isn't terribly crippling since losing a couple points out of a stat that was average generally wouldn't apply a penalty. If you needed a one point bump to push you over into the +10% XP range or to boost to the next point of bonus to whatever, it was generally a good deal.

Quote from: mightybrain on July 01, 2021, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 29, 2021, 07:43:08 PMYes, to an extent; but why would someone with 11, 8, 9, 7, 9, 6 ever leave the farm to go place their life in constant peril?  I understand why someone with 17, 14, 15, 11, 12, 10 would.

Obviously both of these stats are possible with just 3d6 (if somewhat unlikely.) The chances of rolling no stat (out of 6) greater than 11 are the same as rolling no stat lower than a 10. And those chances are about 6%.

On the other hand, the chances of rolling a character better than [17 14 15 11 12 10] in at least one stat with just 3d6 is about 80%, believe it or not.

I believe that what you are saying is that if you roll 3d6 in-order, there is a an 80% chance that one of the stats you roll will be higher than its corresponding value in [17 14 15 11 12 10]. For example if you rolled [3 3 3 3 3 11], you would have met your success criterion. I ran 10,000,000 trials for three replicates and calculated a probability of 80.0%

However, the probability of rolling a better PC where at least one stat was better than [17 14 15 11 12 10] (for example if you rolled [17 14 15 12 12 10] is 0.0001%, calculated with 10,000,000 trials for three replicates.

The probability of rolling a PC with a better stat array than [17 14 15 11 12 10] (for example [17 15 14 13 12 10] is better than [17 15 14 12 11 10]) is 10%, calculated with 10,000,000 trials for three replicates. Note that in this instance the stat order does not matter, so [11 11 12 14 15 17] is better than [17 15 14 12 11 10].

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 01, 2021, 08:19:18 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 01, 2021, 11:27:47 AMThe Roman army did not recruit based on the pay and retirement plan.  They sold the fact that winning armies get to LOOT!!  But, they also had some requirements for stature and build.  they were not so interested in the dude who was sickly and weak.

Yes, this is why a fighter must have at least Str 9 and Con 7 in AD&D1e.

It's not until you hit Con 6 that you get a malus to hit points - which is about when someone might perceive you as "sickly."

Strength likewise has no malus until 6, but the army would also be concerned about your being able to move equipment and your encumbrance, too. Remember that you can do a strict overhead press of 10lb for each point of Strength (with some more complex rules for percentile) which means a minimum press of 90lb. It's that sort of level you'd need to be able to put a heavy pack on your back, help move around tent poles and fortification stakes, and so on.

   I remember using that funky formula they had in the Phb for YEARS while I was in high school to track my real life strength "stat".   I can even remember knowing I had finally hit a 18/62 Str when I was 25 and thinking to myself that was likely my cap of all time. And it was.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 02, 2021, 02:21:08 PMwhen I was 25 and thinking to myself that was likely my cap of all time. And it was.

That's why Gygax put that age chart in the DMG. I hope you levelled up before you aged!

You cant change your stats by exercising or studying!

Only by sucking the sweet sweet xps from your defeated foes.

Quote from: Shasarak on July 02, 2021, 07:59:04 PM
You cant change your stats by exercising or studying!

Only by sucking the sweet sweet xps from your defeated foes.

   Actually, back in first edition, wasnt there a book you could read, and do the exercises and gain constitution and strength (Tome of gainful exercise??). 

Quote from: Shasarak on July 02, 2021, 07:59:04 PM
You cant change your stats by exercising or studying!

Only by sucking the sweet sweet xps from your defeated foes.

In Classic Traveller, you can take up gym work and get a +1 to your Strength, Dexterity and Endurance - all at once! This bonus will remain, but after four years you must make a "dedication throw" of 8+ on 2d6 to make it stick. No word on whether you can stack it, getting +1 every four years. This gives a 42% chance of a permanent +1 to Str/Dex/End.

In my gym experience, that understates the benefit (stat bonus) and overstates the chances of the person sticking with it. Even those who work out a few months get a huge leap in ability, more like +2 or +3 - but very few do it for more than a few months, and most of those who come to the gym go through the motions and aren't getting further stat improvements.

Of course, we could say the same for academic pursuits. CT also allows you to take courses to improve Education, each taking about a year - up to your level of Intelligence.

Lifting and running are a lot of effort. It'd be much easier if I could just hit people and level up.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 08:51:20 AMIn BECMI/AD&D, the 2 for 1 exchange isn't terribly crippling since losing a couple points out of a stat that was average generally wouldn't apply a penalty. If you needed a one point bump to push you over into the +10% XP range or to boost to the next point of bonus to whatever, it was generally a good deal.

Using straight 3d6 in order and adjusting in this way you can expect 40% of characters you roll to have a 10% bonus, and another almost 40% to have a 5% bonus. Although the rules allowed for negatives for low stat values in your prime requisite I think that was only to cater for stat reduction effects in play. Most low roll stats would get rejected by one of the two rules: 2 or more stats of less than 6, or a highest stat of 8 or less. And even then, the chances of rolling that badly were less than 3%.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 02, 2021, 08:05:10 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on July 02, 2021, 07:59:04 PM
You cant change your stats by exercising or studying!

Only by sucking the sweet sweet xps from your defeated foes.

   Actually, back in first edition, wasnt there a book you could read, and do the exercises and gain constitution and strength (Tome of gainful exercise??).

Yeah, I remember that one

Been rolling a bunch of character / npc / villain stats; using 4d6 drop the lowest, straight down the line.

Just rolled up a dandy.

10 Str
15 Dex
16 Con
15 Int
16 Wis
17 Cha

An honest to goodness ringer, of a character.  Using modern modifiers (18 = +4); that's a +2 or +3 for all 3 main saves, and extra HP.  Heck, a +2 or +3 for 5 of the 6 Ability Scores.

I promise, it has taken dozens and dozens of characters to get this one; straight down the line.

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 02, 2021, 09:27:02 PM
Been rolling a bunch of character / npc / villain stats; using 4d6 drop the lowest, straight down the line.

Just rolled up a dandy.

10 Str
15 Dex
16 Con
15 Int
16 Wis
17 Cha

An honest to goodness ringer, of a character.  Using modern modifiers (18 = +4); that's a +2 or +3 for all 3 main saves, and extra HP.  Heck, a +2 or +3 for 5 of the 6 Ability Scores.

I promise, it has taken dozens and dozens of characters to get this one; straight down the line.

You character's stats add up to 89.

I just rolled up 10,000 characters using 4d6 best 3. Only 119 of those characters had an ability score total of 89 or higher. Your character is 1 in 100.

Quote from: Pat on July 02, 2021, 09:51:23 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 02, 2021, 09:27:02 PM
Been rolling a bunch of character / npc / villain stats; using 4d6 drop the lowest, straight down the line.

Just rolled up a dandy.

10 Str
15 Dex
16 Con
15 Int
16 Wis
17 Cha

An honest to goodness ringer, of a character.  Using modern modifiers (18 = +4); that's a +2 or +3 for all 3 main saves, and extra HP.  Heck, a +2 or +3 for 5 of the 6 Ability Scores.

I promise, it has taken dozens and dozens of characters to get this one; straight down the line.

You character's stats add up to 89.

I just rolled up 10,000 characters using 4d6 best 3. Only 119 of those characters had an ability score total of 89 or higher. Your character is 1 in 100.

Thank you, for putting that into perspective.  Definitely not a Strength-based dynamo, but rock solid otherwise.  I have rolled some dandy characters before, on rare occasions; with a 17 and 18, or 16 and 18.  But this one is about as versatile top to bottom, as I can remember.

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 02, 2021, 10:10:26 PM

Thank you, for putting that into perspective.  Definitely not a Strength-based dynamo, but rock solid otherwise.  I have rolled some dandy characters before, on rare occasions; with a 17 and 18, or 16 and 18.  But this one is about as versatile top to bottom, as I can remember.

Most of the other 89s (and a lot of those 119 characters were 89s) had more 18s. Your character is more of a generalist.

If you're curious, the best character out of 10,000 was 18, 17, 17, 15, 15, 15 (97 points).

Quote from: Pat on July 02, 2021, 10:14:28 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 02, 2021, 10:10:26 PM

Thank you, for putting that into perspective.  Definitely not a Strength-based dynamo, but rock solid otherwise.  I have rolled some dandy characters before, on rare occasions; with a 17 and 18, or 16 and 18.  But this one is about as versatile top to bottom, as I can remember.

Most of the other 89s (and a lot of those 119 characters were 89s) had more 18s. Your character is more of a generalist.

If you're curious, the best character out of 10,000 was 18, 17, 17, 15, 15, 15 (97 points).

Looking back through old 4d6 stat sets I had rolled in the past, I found one character with a total of 90.  A total dynamo, but not a single 18.

17 Str
15 Dex
13 Con
15 Int
17 Wis
13 Cha

I think I wrote War Priest beside that stat set.  That will be tough for anyone to beat.


I also found one set with a total of 91, believe it or not.  Lots and lots of rolling stats.

14 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
13 Int
18 Wis
17 Cha

More reasonable stats, but still an awesome fighter:

17 Str
14 Dex
17 Con
13 Int
11 Wis
9 Cha