The people who leave the farm and go out to find adventure aren't always those with the highest Str., they are those with the greater determination.

Rolling higher stats will not make you a better D&D player. Ordinary characters who achieve extraordinary things will be remembered. Extraordinary characters are expected to achieve extraordinary things, they will be remembered most for their failures.

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 13, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Supposedly; Gygax himself -

- grew soft in his old age. It happens.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 13, 2021, 08:21:33 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 13, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Supposedly; Gygax himself -

- grew soft in his old age. It happens.

2E did away with the 'character with a stat this low can only be X class'. Which was a good thing, since as I illustrated, poor Ackshually can't actually be a PC because he can't take any class.

Evaluating data and revising systems isn't exactly 'going soft'. But I mean, if you have that much desire to buttfuck a player in chargen, why not play Traveller?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 13, 2021, 08:21:33 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on July 13, 2021, 02:28:24 PM
Supposedly; Gygax himself -

- grew soft in his old age. It happens.

No.  I don't think so?  I think the books were meant for "the rest of us".  People kept asking him how they ought to play make believe; so he sold them 3 core books, plus many more.  He ran primarily what he was running back in the OD&D days, prior to AD&D.  There were others at TSR who also weren't running AD&D, even though it was their flagship product line.  They already knew how they wanted to play make believe at their own tables.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2021, 10:36:16 AMAnd that, friends, is why sometimes 'the old style' isn't necessarily the best.

The hireling would make a perfectly serviceable magic-user -- but because of the 'must be an assassin' rule for low Charisma, he's actually (ackshually?) locked out of everything. He can't be an assassin, because his other attributes aren't high enough.

I consider it simply a way to moderate the worst rolls. Some groups of rolls will be set aside. You'll lose the worst rolls (5 and under), and there may be some good rolls (15 and above) as collateral damage. We take the bad with the good, such is life.

When GMing, I do away with all the minimums. If you really want to play a Cha 5 MU, go for it. You can play a Str 6 Int 12 fighter if you want, as well. Maybe dad is friends with the chief instructor, gave him 100gp and said, "Graduate him no matter what, he's such a bookworm, too soft, some time in the line of battle will toughen him up."

This is based on Method V from 1e's Unearthed Arcana. Unlike all the other methods, you have to choose your race and class first, and then you roll the number of dice specified on a table. This method is notorious for the number of dice -- it ranges from 9d6 (best 3) in your class's most important stat, down to 8d6 in the next most important, and so on terminating at 3d6 in your least important stat.

Yes, that works out to 7 different abilities. This was in the brief interval when Comeliness was a stat. Since nobody uses Comeliness anymore, I'm going to adapt the method a bit. The obvious solution is to just ignore Com and use the number of dice in the table, but that ends up penalizing the thief (8d6 Com) and rewarding everyone else (all the other classes roll 3d6 to 5d6). The solution I'll use is to drop Comeliness and fill in the gap by shifting the other dice totals up or down 1. There are two ways to do this, ending up with either 9d6...4d6 or 8d6...3d6.

As a side note, the official version of Method V can only be used by single class humans, but it's not hard to generalize to multi-class characters or demihumans. If anyone's interested, I could go into details.

Here are four characters, randomly generated using Method V. The default uses the 9d6...4d6 variation, but if dropping the first die (8d6...3d6) changed anything, it's noted in parentheses.

Cleric: S 17, I 10, W 15, D 12, C 15, Ch 12 (S 16, Ch 10). Fairly low Wis, nice Str.

Fighter: S 9, I 12, W 17, D 15, C 9, Ch 11 (I 8, W 15, D 13, C 8, Ch 10). The total of 73 points is very low, and the arrangement is even more bizarre (yes it's possible to roll a 9 using 9d6 [112222251]). I can't imagine any player being happy with those rolls.

Magic-user: S 10, I 17, W 15, D 17, C 15, Ch 14 (I 15, D 16, C 13, Ch 10). Solid.

Thief: S 18, I 17, W 12, D 17, C 13, Ch 11 (no changes). Smart and strong. A lazy natural.

With all those dice, I only managed to roll a single 18, and it wasn't in the class's prime requisite (a thief rolls strength using 6d6 adjusted up to 7d6 to account for the loss of Comeliness). That corresponds with my memories of using Method V -- rolling all those dice led players to expect multiple 18s, and they were always disappointed with the results. Ironically, this led to more pressure to allow rerolls than with less generous methods.

Based on 10K random characters, the average for 9d6...4d6 is 15.8, 15.4, 14.9, 14.3, 13.4, 12.2. Converted to the integer array closest to the total, that's 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 12. The mode (most common results for each stat) is 16, 16, 16, 15, 14, 13. Nice, but much lower than most people would expect. 8d6...3d6 is 15.4, 14.9, 14.3, 13.4, 12.3, 10.5, array 15, 15, 14, 14, 12, 11, mode 16, 16, 16, 14, 12, 11.

If a player doesn't like the stats they've rolled, they could always make up the character and give it to the DM to use as an NPC before rolling a new one.

Last night, I rolled up straight down the line:

16 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
11 Int
16 Wis
10 Cha

That would be a very interesting character to play.  Not a super hero, but doesn't suck either.  Either a solid Fighter; or a pretty good Cleric, limited by their Int and Cha scores.  Just think of them as more of a scrappy Cleric.  Like a Fighter; but with fewer HP, in exchange for some Healing ability.  Good saves for Dex, Con, and Wis too.

Quote from: mightybrain on July 14, 2021, 06:26:58 PM
If a player doesn't like the stats they've rolled, they could always make up the character and give it to the DM to use as an NPC before rolling a new one.

The DM could always use this NPC to stalk and kill their "better" character. 
I'm not being serious, but the thought did occur to me.

Quote from: DocJones on July 14, 2021, 07:29:33 PMI'm not being serious, but the thought did occur to me.

You read my mind. As a DM I'd most certainly make the character into the PC's nemesis.

Quote from: mightybrain on July 14, 2021, 07:44:14 PM

Quote from: DocJones on July 14, 2021, 07:29:33 PMI'm not being serious, but the thought did occur to me.

You read my mind. As a DM I'd most certainly make the character into the PC's nemesis.

"They called me... Mr. Glass..."

There you go. And now you have a legitimate and believable reason to use that wheelchair in an encounter.

Today we played in Bill's stream. With straight 10s and 6hp my fighter walked into the gym and fell in a twenty foot pit, and died.

This could have happened even if he'd had 18/00 strength

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 15, 2021, 03:31:09 AM
Today we played in Bill's stream. With straight 10s and 6hp my fighter walked into the gym and fell in a twenty foot pit, and died.

This could have happened even if he'd had 18/00 strength

What, was the pool drained? Why was there a 20' pit in the gym?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 15, 2021, 03:31:09 AM
Today we played in Bill's stream. With straight 10s and 6hp my fighter walked into the gym and fell in a twenty foot pit, and died.

This could have happened even if he'd had 18/00 strength

Would have survived with an 18 Con.