Interesting posts on the role of choices in character development/changes.(BTW Maddman makes gaming sound as if one is fucking if not the cheerleader captain, the kinky  cheerleader who smokes in the corner and most of the time can be found watching Pedro Almodovar movies -you are a cool cat, Maddman )

Elliot's point on pacing is one skill that I may be lacking when it comes to short term play...but..

A couple of things. Yeah, choices are important but how do you add that added impact of history (what has gone on before) to the mix, which makes those choices seem more urgent to the character and not to the plot/storyline/game ?

Also stuff like betrayal - pc or npc. This IMO has more of an impact when it is a slow burning issue (informed by history...experience?) rather than an unexpected twist...well at least in rpgs. This is one of the problems my players have with short term play. Interest in the storyyline/plot becomes the focus and not their characters.

According to them, long term play is more condusive to character changes because they get to form relationships with numerous npcs. They live in the setting for a time, discover what makes it tick, discover how their characters fit into the general scheme of things and discover what's worth fighting for from a character point of view.

Now I'm pretty sure that this may seem true to them but..

I've run four sessions of IHW and the changes in their characters have been extremely explicit. So short term play can bring about change is an extremely dramatic fashion - even though this is the first time I've ever seen it. Now I been going over what we do differently, and I've come up with nothing...

Interest in the genre? Nope, they have interest in every game we play and if not, they will tell me so. Something I'm doing differently? I've gone over my game and am coming up empty. I thought they had a "satori" moment of roleplaying enlightenment, but in our just started Cyberpunk campaign, it's back to the normal getting our feet wet...

Now IHW is supposed to be a long term campiagn*, but like I've said, I've witnessed some big changes in just four adventures...

*Long term play. Once a week every week for a year or more.

Regards,
David R

QuoteYeah, choices are important but how do you add that added impact of history (what has gone on before) to the mix, which makes those choices seem more urgent to the character and not to the plot/storyline/game ?

You can't, man. That's like asking how we can get twenty years of Days of Our Lives into a two-hour movie. It's a different experience.

Quote from: Elliot WilenNot quite: he tried to do the same thing in the comic as in the movie (though the girlfriend was Gwen Stacy), so his actions didn't reveal anything about him.

Looking over this, I realize this isn't what I meant to say. Of course it revealed something about him: it revealed that he didn't want to choose, and then he found out that he couldn't always win.

Quote from: David RBut here's the thing. Is short term play really not condusive to character development?

David, I agree with Droog here - it's apples and two-by-fours; different experiences.  Admittedly, I'm way at the end of the number-line away from short-term games; I only run them at cons and as filler when someone's missing for an important session of my long-term games.  In any event, it sounds like your players have pretty specific opinions about the question, and they're the most important:

Quote from: David RAccording to them, long term play is more condusive to character changes because they get to form relationships with numerous npcs. They live in the setting for a time, discover what makes it tick, discover how their characters fit into the general scheme of things and discover what's worth fighting for from a character point of view.

Now I'm pretty sure that this may seem true to them but..

The only way you can get that feeling of history, that they're looking for and you're describing, from a short-term game is if the players will buy into it whole-heartedly.  You can give them a boat-load of juicy past history situations and choices and motivations and character change and various mechanical constraints and aids and a cool-ass laser light show and personalized virtual reality past history cortex jacks and fresh-baked background event brownies, but if they won't play those conditions (or don't feel like they can play them) with that level of history, it's a non-starter.  But very cool with the VR cortex jacks - I'd like someone to do that for me.

It just sounds like they think that long-term campaigns are more fun and preferable to them.

Quote from: ReimdallDavid, I agree with Droog here - it's apples and two-by-fours; different experiences.  

Yeah, the both of you are right. Please remember my posts are not fully thought through

QuoteThe only way you can get that feeling of history, that they're looking for and you're describing, from a short-term game is if the players will buy into it whole-heartedly.  You can give them a boat-load of juicy past history situations and choices and motivations and character change and various mechanical constraints and aids and a cool-ass laser light show and personalized virtual reality past history cortex jacks and fresh-baked background event brownies, but if they won't play those conditions (or don't feel like they can play them) with that level of history, it's a non-starter.  But very cool with the VR cortex jacks - I'd like someone to do that for me.

You had me at "...various mechanical constraints..."

But I do get your point.

QuoteIt just sounds like they think that long-term campaigns are more fun and preferable to them.

Sure, but I think there is something about roleplaying in specific games that can bring about character changes in a short span of time. There are a lot of factors. Maybe genre, interest, rules, player interaction...whatever it is, I intend to discover it.....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RYou had me at "...various mechanical constraints..."

Yeah, but I had to get the background history brownies out of my brain.  Sorry I had to vomit them on the unsuspecting.

Quote from: David Rwhatever it is, I intend to discover it.....

Rock on.  I'll be the first in line to buy the first printing, believe me.  Forward, soldier!:hatsoff:

Quote from: ReimdallSorry I had to vomit them on the unsuspecting.

Not at all. One of my players who read that after which she said "how come you never talk to us like that...? "

QuoteRock on.  I'll be the first in line to buy the first printing, believe me.  Forward, soldier!:hatsoff:

Heh, it's for my game man, I don't think I have the commitment or creativity to be a designer. (But I'm a damn competent thief of cool ideas :deviousgrin: )

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAccording to them, long term play is more condusive to character changes because they get to form relationships with numerous npcs. They live in the setting for a time, discover what makes it tick, discover how their characters fit into the general scheme of things and discover what's worth fighting for from a character point of view.

Now I'm pretty sure that this may seem true to them but..

I've run four sessions of IHW and the changes in their characters have been extremely explicit. So short term play can bring about change is an extremely dramatic fashion - even though this is the first time I've ever seen it. Now I been going over what we do differently, and I've come up with nothing...

Interest in the genre? Nope, they have interest in every game we play and if not, they will tell me so. Something I'm doing differently? I've gone over my game and am coming up empty. I thought they had a "satori" moment of roleplaying enlightenment, but in our just started Cyberpunk campaign, it's back to the normal getting our feet wet...

Now IHW is supposed to be a long term campiagn*, but like I've said, I've witnessed some big changes in just four adventures...

*Long term play. Once a week every week for a year or more.

Regards,
David R

That's because I designed IHW to work for both/either short or long term play. The default play is broken up by character year, which encourages short arcs, but the years are combined into a long term campaign. The short year-arcs are propelled by the pressure to excel given by the need for Notice, while the long term goals of the career give substance for history and long term play. Like I said, I like both types of play. Short term play can get very intense, while long term play gives a fuller satisfaction.

-clash