What a surprise the bad guys are American fascists led by a populist influential radio figure.
Links!
And should this thread should be in RPG main page?
I can't believe I'm gonna toss CoC. It's been my horror go-to forever.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090102What a surprise the bad guys are American fascists led by a populist influential radio figure.
Oh brother. Does it come with a free " Punch a Nazi " t-shirt?
Quote from: Gagarth;1090102What a surprise the bad guys are American fascists led by a populist influential radio figure.
Does it anchor it in the historical precedent of folks like Fr. Coughlin, or in contemporary progressive fears?
As a nearly lifelong fan of Mythos fiction, this "progressive" viewpoint has started to seep into Mythos fiction in the last decade or so, to the point where it is becoming unenjoyable. It's sad to see Chaosium encouraging this even further with CoC.
As much as I'm tired of leftist propaganda showing up in pop culture (especially my favorite hobby), I'd like to see some more information and confirmation of this.
Quote from: jeff37923;1090164As much as I'm tired of leftist propaganda showing up in pop culture (especially my favorite hobby), I'd like to see some more information and confirmation of this.
As would I. I can attest only to it showing up in fiction, but some authors are certainly pushing it. I also don't believe it unlikely, since a good chunk of the Mythos material comes from Chaosium. It certainly wouldn't surprise me that it is seeping over into their RPG's.
PDF is on sale here - https://www.chaosium.com/a-cold-fire-within-pdf/
Quote from: S'mon;1090198PDF is on sale here - https://www.chaosium.com/a-cold-fire-within-pdf/
Thank you, S'mon. I'm not seeing any "bad guys are American fascists led by a populist influential radio figure" in this adventure at first glance. Does anybody have a better link?
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1090138Does it anchor it in the historical precedent of folks like Fr. Coughlin, or in contemporary progressive fears?
Why would that matter? Since the latter uses the former as a tool in their propaganda. But since you ask the organisation is the League of Forgotten Men lifted straight from Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here. Here is a take on the book probably not unlike New Chaosium's views. http://viridislumen.blogspot.com/2017/08/it-cant-happen-here-last-lament-of.html (http://viridislumen.blogspot.com/2017/08/it-cant-happen-here-last-lament-of.html) and the author's since he loves wallowing in Lovecraft's racism https://csmithadair.com/2016/07/01/lovecraft-in-his-grave-pondering-race/ (https://csmithadair.com/2016/07/01/lovecraft-in-his-grave-pondering-race/)
Quote from: jeff37923;1090209Thank you, S'mon. I'm not seeing any "bad guys are American fascists led by a populist influential radio figure" in this adventure at first glance. Does anybody have a better link?
You will not find any because as far as I can see New Chaosium has been very tight lipped about the actual content of the campaign. In case you are in any doubt who the bad guys are one of them has a copy of Mein Kampf.
So it's Pulp Cthulhu, it's set in the 1930's, and people are surprised the bad guys are nazi's?
I have a big problem with people "interpreting" Lovecraft with a modern lens. Sadly, his views were pretty commonplace then, and his extreme xenophobia, in large part contributed to his view of other cultures and his racism. While it is lamentable that such talented artists could be in some aspects horrible people, it is not surprising. Though often, this "judgement" is very selectively applied much like leftists today hold their opponents to far more stringent standards than they hold themselves to.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090212You will not find any because as far as I can see New Chaosium has been very tight lipped about the actual content of the campaign. In case you are in any doubt who the bad guys are one of them has a copy of Mein Kampf.
I hate to do this, but I'm hitting the heresay barrier pretty hard on this one. While I don't doubt that the authors can take advantage of Lovecraft to virtue signal, I personally need more proof before I condemn.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090212You will not find any because as far as I can see New Chaosium has been very tight lipped about the actual content of the campaign. In case you are in any doubt who the bad guys are one of them has a copy of Mein Kampf.
Chaosium is so far behind the curve, now you can tell who the real bad guys are if they have a copy of 12 Rules for Life.
Quote from: Shasarak;1090351Chaosium is so far behind the curve, now you can tell who the real bad guys are if they have a copy of 12 Rules for Life.
Yes, taking stock of your life, and taking on the burden of your own responsibilities is so fascist... it truly beggars belief that anyone could make this leap of illogic.
Quote from: shuddemell;1090379Yes, taking stock of your life, and taking on the burden of your own responsibilities is so fascist... it truly beggars belief that anyone could make this leap of illogic.
That is because in their minds it is everyone else who is at fault and no fault can come from them. They are perfect angels fighting for the cause to bring about the new world order that would be utopia. Which by the way Utopia is a lie and the pursuit of it always leads to more harm than good. If the road to hell is paved in good intentions, then Utopia is the bait that the Devil dangles before these people of good intentions to chase after. Always with no heed to the slaughter of innocents in their way to self damnation, ruin, and eventual death.
Quote from: jeff37923;1090219I hate to do this, but I'm hitting the heresay barrier pretty hard on this one. While I don't doubt that the authors can take advantage of Lovecraft to virtue signal, I personally need more proof before I condemn.
Are you accusing me of spreading hearsay? If so you are wrong I am reading the fucking product. They are beyond virtue signalling since the injection of Cubicle 7 staff they are outright activists. Proof? Have your read any New Chaosium Call of Cthulhu products released in the last couple of years?
Quote from: Gagarth;1090399Are you accusing me of spreading hearsay? If so you are wrong I am reading the fucking product. They are beyond virtue signalling since the injection of Cubicle 7 staff they are outright activists. Proof? Have your read any New Chaosium Call of Cthulhu products released in the last couple of years?
It's certainly plausible and in character for the current management. I'm going to hold on tightly to my Kickstarted copies of Paladin when they arrive, because I doubt this iteration of Chaosium is likely to reprint them. But details and citations are always important when making a case like this.
Here's the first paragraph of the introduction of the bad guys.
(blah blah quoted for review blah blah no challenge blah blah).
QuoteThe League of Forgotten Men is a fictional organization
appearing in Sinclair Lewis' 1935 novel, It Can't Happen
Here, about the transformation of the United States into a
fascist state after the election of amiable populist Berzelius
"Buzz" Windrip in 1936. It becomes the foundation of the
Minute Men, Windrip's private army and police force. The
League is largely inspired (both in reality and in the novel)
by the National Union for Social Justice, organized by radio
preacher Father Coughlin. Buzz Windrip is inspired in part
by Huey Long (the State Senator for Louisiana, assassinated
in September 1935) and cites William Dudley Pelley's
inspirational writings.
I'm not seeing anything particularly problematic with this so far. I suppose if you look hard enough, you can see anti-Trumpism in the shadows. Is the SJW stuff further in?
Also I had never heard of "National Union for Social Justice" but I find the name of the outfit just plain hilarious.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090399Are you accusing me of spreading hearsay?
Not yet.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090399If so you are wrong I am reading the fucking product. They are beyond virtue signalling since the injection of Cubicle 7 staff they are outright activists. Proof? Have your read any New Chaosium Call of Cthulhu products released in the last couple of years?
Quote from: Gagarth;1090212You will not find any because as far as I can see New Chaosium has been very tight lipped about the actual content of the campaign. In case you are in any doubt who the bad guys are one of them has a copy of Mein Kampf.
This is the problem for me. I do not doubt that Chaosium staff can use a product to virtue signal. Before I condemn a product, I must have a reason why it should be condemned, like proof that it is just a virtue signal and not a viable campaign worth the money used to purchase it in this case. Since I don't have the product to read, I can't easily judge it (and no, I'm not going to blow my money on a product just to support my stance in a forum argument).
I don't go by posts on message boards as cause to condemn, because then I would be behaving just like the knee-jerk SJWs who flock around Stacy D and her ilk shitting up the hobby. I need proof to substantiate the condemnation.
Quote from: jeff37923;1090422I don't go by posts on message boards as cause to condemn, because then I would be behaving just like the knee-jerk SJWs who flock around Stacy D and her ilk shitting up the hobby. I need proof to substantiate the condemnation.
Then why bother commenting at all and who asked for your condemnation ?
Quote from: Godfather Punk;1090213So it's Pulp Cthulhu, it's set in the 1930's, and people are surprised the bad guys are nazi's?
From Reading it it is obvious they are using the League of Forgotten Men as an allegory for Trump and his supporters. As for 1930's baddies do you really think that new Chaosium would put out a campaign were CPUSA agitators are the bad guys?
Quote from: Gagarth;1090430As for 1930's baddies do you really think that new Chaosium would put out a campaign were CPUSA agitators are the bad guys?
Despite the fact this is an excellent idea, if I called the shots at Chaosium, I'd have to can it because it would be a poor business decision.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090429Then why bother commenting at all and who asked for your condemnation ?
Well, if your claim is both true and able to be verified, it is something to be condemned since most people game for fun and not for pursuing a political or social agenda.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090430From Reading it it is obvious they are using the League of Forgotten Men as an allegory for Trump and his supporters.
OK, how do you prove this?
Chaosium spouting SJW idiocy is very believable, but we need proof.
It's like the T-shirt says. I don't believe men or women. I believe facts and evidence.
Quote from: Godfather Punk;1090213So it's Pulp Cthulhu, it's set in the 1930's, and people are surprised the bad guys are nazi's?
I am surprised by the really shitty art.
But 1930s villains = Nazis is a no-brainer.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1090409I suppose if you look hard enough, you can see anti-Trumpism in the shadows.
No need to look hard. It's obvious if you're familiar with the liberal narrative that the USA 2019 is just like Germany in the 1930s. Its been a popular social media narrative, echoed by celebs and the MSM. Just last week, a "news show" had Jeff Daniels from Dumb and Dumber saying that if Trump wins in 2020, that's end of democracy.
Because winning an election ends democracy in today's liberal parlance. But somehow Obama's election didn't end democracy. Funny that.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1090409Also I had never heard of "National Union for Social Justice" but I find the name of the outfit just plain hilarious.
That is hilarious!
Hi all -
Creative Director of Chaosium here.
The big influence on this book is Sinclair Lewis rather than the politics of the early 21st century. It is at least in part a mash-up of Lovecraft's (ghost-written for Bishop) story "The Mound" with Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here," the strange overlap of groups like the Silver Shirts with occult groups like the I Am movement, plus loads of other historical and literary elements of the 1930s. The National Union for Social Justice was, as you know, a real historical political movement founded by Rev. Coughlin - which was anti-communist AND anti-capitalist. The Forgotten Men actually comes from a speech of FDR (actually the concept is older, but FDR re-popularized the idea). In short, the adventure is not intended as a parable for 21st century politics any more than Masks of Nyarlahothep is intended to be - it is perhaps easier to say that The Forgotten Men can represent whatever "populist" movement YOU find threatening, since as we know everyone likes "the right kind" of populism (whatever that is) and dislikes the "wrong kind" (again whatever that is).
Quote from: richaje;1090700Hi all -
Creative Director of Chaosium here.
The big influence on this book is Sinclair Lewis rather than the politics of the early 21st century. It is at least in part a mash-up of Lovecraft's (ghost-written for Bishop) story "The Mound" with Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here," the strange overlap of groups like the Silver Shirts with occult groups like the I Am movement, plus loads of other historical and literary elements of the 1930s. The National Union for Social Justice was, as you know, a real historical political movement founded by Rev. Coughlin - which was anti-communist AND anti-capitalist. The Forgotten Men actually comes from a speech of FDR (actually the concept is older, but FDR re-popularized the idea). In short, the adventure is not intended as a parable for 21st century politics any more than Masks of Nyarlahothep is intended to be - it is perhaps easier to say that The Forgotten Men can represent whatever "populist" movement YOU find threatening, since as we know everyone likes "the right kind" of populism (whatever that is) and dislikes the "wrong kind" (again whatever that is).
Very classy of you to show up and discuss the matter, sir. Kudos.
Quote from: richaje;1090700Hi all -
Creative Director of Chaosium here.
The big influence on this book is Sinclair Lewis rather than the politics of the early 21st century. It is at least in part a mash-up of Lovecraft's (ghost-written for Bishop) story "The Mound" with Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here," the strange overlap of groups like the Silver Shirts with occult groups like the I Am movement, plus loads of other historical and literary elements of the 1930s. The National Union for Social Justice was, as you know, a real historical political movement founded by Rev. Coughlin - which was anti-communist AND anti-capitalist. The Forgotten Men actually comes from a speech of FDR (actually the concept is older, but FDR re-popularized the idea). In short, the adventure is not intended as a parable for 21st century politics any more than Masks of Nyarlahothep is intended to be - it is perhaps easier to say that The Forgotten Men can represent whatever "populist" movement YOU find threatening, since as we know everyone likes "the right kind" of populism (whatever that is) and dislikes the "wrong kind" (again whatever that is).
Thank you for dropping in and clarifying that. Dan is right, it is a very classy move and is greatly appreciated.
Quote from: richaje;1090700Hi all -
Creative Director of Chaosium here.
The big influence on this book is Sinclair Lewis rather than the politics of the early 21st century. It is at least in part a mash-up of Lovecraft's (ghost-written for Bishop) story "The Mound" with Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here," the strange overlap of groups like the Silver Shirts with occult groups like the I Am movement, plus loads of other historical and literary elements of the 1930s. The National Union for Social Justice was, as you know, a real historical political movement founded by Rev. Coughlin - which was anti-communist AND anti-capitalist. The Forgotten Men actually comes from a speech of FDR (actually the concept is older, but FDR re-popularized the idea). In short, the adventure is not intended as a parable for 21st century politics any more than Masks of Nyarlahothep is intended to be - it is perhaps easier to say that The Forgotten Men can represent whatever "populist" movement YOU find threatening, since as we know everyone likes "the right kind" of populism (whatever that is) and dislikes the "wrong kind" (again whatever that is).
I'll third the forum thanks for giving your input, and responding classily.
Personally I think we can put this one to bed.
Quote from: S'mon;1090773I'll third the forum thanks for giving your input, and responding classily.
Personally I think we can put this one to bed.
I'll fourth it, though I was humming "Fools Rush In" and Don Quixote's theme as I read it. This forum really is outlaw country. Not a bad thing, but a poster who denies charges of SJWism is in for a grilling. ;)
And no the thread isn't done, because we haven't had a chance to decide to examine the evidence behind the charge. Because a corp spokesman saying "nothing to these allegations" doesn't particularly refute the charge.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1090409Also I had never heard of "National Union for Social Justice" but I find the name of the outfit just plain hilarious.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1090674That is hilarious!
Quote from: richaje;1090700Hi all -
The National Union for Social Justice was, as you know, a real historical political movement founded by Rev. Coughlin - which was anti-communist AND anti-capitalist.
Yes I do. That is what is so funny - comparing the modern SJW movement with a group founded by Coughlin!
Quote from: Gagarth;1090430From Reading it it is obvious they are using the League of Forgotten Men as an allegory for Trump and his supporters.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1090409I'm not seeing anything particularly problematic with this so far. I suppose if you look hard enough, you can see anti-Trumpism in the shadows. Is the SJW stuff further in?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1090674Chaosium spouting SJW idiocy is very believable, but we need proof.
No need to look hard. It's obvious if you're familiar with the liberal narrative that the USA 2019 is just like Germany in the 1930s.
Quote from: richaje;1090700Hi all -
Creative Director of Chaosium here.
The big influence on this book is Sinclair Lewis rather than the politics of the early 21st century. It is at least in part a mash-up of Lovecraft's (ghost-written for Bishop) story "The Mound" with Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here,"...it is perhaps easier to say that The Forgotten Men can represent whatever "populist" movement YOU find threatening, since as we know everyone likes "the right kind" of populism (whatever that is) and dislikes the "wrong kind" (again whatever that is).
And I agree. The point I am making is that everyone,
everyone, occasionally sees "what that
really means." At You Know Where they see any attempt to clarify a statement as concern trolling or sea lioning. A few years back, someone posted how they hated Tolkien. He (the poster) was firmly anti-aristocratic, and saw
Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for the passing of the aristocracy (elves) to be replaced by rule by commoners (humans). Not an invalid interpretation, but not a common one either. Here Gargath seems to be saying that a Huey Long homage is really a Trump metaphor. Like SpinachChat, I too am waiting for a more concrete example.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1090827And I agree. The point I am making is that everyone, everyone, occasionally sees "what that really means." At You Know Where they see any attempt to clarify a statement as concern trolling or sea lioning. A few years back, someone posted how they hated Tolkien. He (the poster) was firmly anti-aristocratic, and saw Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for the passing of the aristocracy (elves) to be replaced by rule by commoners (humans). Not an invalid interpretation, but not a common one either. Here Gargath seems to be saying that a Huey Long homage is really a Trump metaphor. Like SpinachChat, I too am waiting for a more concrete example.
I'm sure it is easy to read the Sinclair Lewis elements as being an anti-Trump (or anti-Le Pen, or whoever else you want to put up) swipe if you are so inclined to do so (maybe you hate Trump or maybe you hate the folk that hate Trump). My suggestion is to just enjoy the campaign, have a rollicking romp through literary tropes and historical themes of the 1930s and let it be about whatever your players make it.
Quote from: richaje;1090839I'm sure it is easy to read the Sinclair Lewis elements as being an anti-Trump (or anti-Le Pen, or whoever else you want to put up) swipe if you are so inclined to do so (maybe you hate Trump or maybe you hate the folk that hate Trump). My suggestion is to just enjoy the campaign, have a rollicking romp through literary tropes and historical themes of the 1930s and let it be about whatever your players make it.
Goddamn, but its refreshing to hear such common sense being spoken on the internet.
Quote from: richaje;1090700Hi all -
Creative Director of Chaosium here.
The big influence on this book is Sinclair Lewis rather than the politics of the early 21st century. It is at least in part a mash-up of Lovecraft's (ghost-written for Bishop) story "The Mound" with Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here," the strange overlap of groups like the Silver Shirts with occult groups like the I Am movement, plus loads of other historical and literary elements of the 1930s. The National Union for Social Justice was, as you know, a real historical political movement founded by Rev. Coughlin - which was anti-communist AND anti-capitalist. The Forgotten Men actually comes from a speech of FDR (actually the concept is older, but FDR re-popularized the idea). In short, the adventure is not intended as a parable for 21st century politics any more than Masks of Nyarlahothep is intended to be - it is perhaps easier to say that The Forgotten Men can represent whatever "populist" movement YOU find threatening, since as we know everyone likes "the right kind" of populism (whatever that is) and dislikes the "wrong kind" (again whatever that is).
This might hold water if the previous New Chaosium Call of Cthulhu publications and statements from your staff about prior editions of campaigns being racist did not show exactly what direction the company is heading.
Quote from: jeff37923;1090450Well, if your claim is both true and able to be verified, it is something to be condemned since most people game for fun and not for pursuing a political or social agenda.
Why should they be condemned? It is their company they can produce whatever they want but potential purchasers should be made aware of it and maybe New Chaosium should be more upfront about it like the other activist game companies.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090864This might hold water if the previous Call of Cthulhu publications and statements from your staff about prior editions of campaigns being racist did not show exactly what direction the company is heading.
Individual writers and editors are perfectly entitled to believe and say that. Chaosium has always been an ideologically diverse group from gun-toting hippie shamans to Mormon elders, libertarian lawyers, and chain-smoking French communists. My goal as Creative Director is to produce stuff that I think makes cool and interesting stories. Some of that may lean left, some of that may lean right, some of that may lean upside down and inside out.
Quote from: richaje;1090867Individual writers and editors are perfectly entitled to believe and say that. Chaosium has always been an ideologically diverse group from gun-toting hippie shamans to Mormon elders, libertarian lawyers, and chain-smoking French communists. My goal as Creative Director is to produce stuff that I think makes cool and interesting stories. Some of that may lean left, some of that may lean right, some of that may lean upside down and inside out.
Apparently I've mistaken the preponderance of progressive thought among recent creatives for official company policy; my apologies for overgeneralizing. I'm thoroughly sick of Lovecraft and never had any interest in Runequest, but I look forward to seeing what you'll do with Pendragon.
A simple Google search of "Windrip and Trump" will show that it's a pretty common idea on the left that Sinclair Lewis predicted Trump when he wrote Windrip. There are articles on the linkage in Time Magazine and the New York Times. It's even in the book's Wikipedia page.
However, I don't see how that proves that a fictional take on Coughlin equals a fictional take on Trump. There would have to be elements in the campaign that went beyond Coughlin and Windrip to prove the authors are making a modern political statement.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090865Why should they be condemned? It is their company they can produce whatever they want but potential purchasers should be made aware of it and maybe New Chaosium should be more upfront about it like the other activist game companies.
Since you obviously didn't read my statement that you quoted the first time, here it is again. I'll even
bold the relevant part.
Quote from: jeff37923;1090450Well, if your claim is both true and able to be verified, it is something to be condemned since most people game for fun and not for pursuing a political or social agenda.
EDIT: I will just add this. You were wrong and saw something there that wasn't. If you man up and admit your mistake, it'll be a lot easier for you in the long run.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090430As for 1930's baddies do you really think that new Chaosium would put out a campaign were CPUSA agitators are the bad guys?
I was a Cultist for the FBI?
Quote from: Gagarth;1090430As for 1930's baddies do you really think that new Chaosium would put out a campaign were CPUSA agitators are the bad guys?
Dude, it's
Cthulu. Any mortal enemies you face are ultimately irrelevant.
Sounds like Chaosium needs another financial crisis to slap the stupid out of their mouth.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1090886However, I don't see how that proves that a fictional take on Coughlin equals a fictional take on Trump. There would have to be elements in the campaign that went beyond Coughlin and Windrip to prove the authors are making a modern political statement.
It's being published in 2019, not 2014, and since 2016, the MSM has been inundated with "It's the 30s again! Trump is Hitler!" so the sudden appearance of "CoC: Rise of Nazis in America" isn't too hard to figure out. Especially since the rise of Communism in the USA, not Nazism, was a major concern during the Great Depression.
But guess what Chaosium publishes
exactly when the Left is praising Communism and declaring anything right of Mao to be Nazism???
Do we have every fact about the product? Nope, but connecting dots isn't rocket science. More importantly, let's not forget Chaosium has no monopoly on Lovecraftian horror, nor control of D100. It's VERY easy to vote with your wallet elsewhere.
Silent Legions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions)by Sine Nomine gives me all the Cthulhu, but none of Chaosium's political bullshit.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1091008Sounds like Chaosium needs another financial crisis to slap the stupid out of their mouth.
It's being published in 2019, not 2014, and since 2016, the MSM has been inundated with "It's the 30s again! Trump is Hitler!" so the sudden appearance of "CoC: Rise of Nazis in America" isn't too hard to figure out. Especially since the rise of Communism in the USA, not Nazism, was a major concern during the Great Depression.
But guess what Chaosium publishes exactly when the Left is praising Communism and declaring anything right of Mao to be Nazism???
Do we have every fact about the product? Nope, but connecting dots isn't rocket science. More importantly, let's not forget Chaosium has no monopoly on Lovecraftian horror, nor control of D100. It's VERY easy to vote with your wallet elsewhere.
Silent Legions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions)by Sine Nomine gives me all the Cthulhu, but none of Chaosium's political bullshit.
A book we commissioned a year before the 2016 election managed to predict the media mood after the election? I am ever impressed with our writer's far-seeing perspicacity!
Joking aside, I think the Cthulhu for President 2016 campaign better reflects our "political bullshit": https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-9zhx02uo/products/573/images/2173/CHA0091_-_Cthulhu_for_President_Front_Cover__54717.1468239059.500.659.jpg?c=2
Quote from: jeff37923;1090942Since you obviously didn't read my statement that you quoted the first time, here it is again. I'll even bold the relevant part.
EDIT: I will just add this. You were wrong and saw something there that wasn't. If you man up and admit your mistake, it'll be a lot easier for you in the long run.
It was rhetorical.
Quote from: richaje;1090867Individual writers and editors are perfectly entitled to believe and say that. Chaosium has always been an ideologically diverse group from gun-toting hippie shamans to Mormon elders, libertarian lawyers, and chain-smoking French communists. My goal as Creative Director is to produce stuff that I think makes cool and interesting stories. Some of that may lean left, some of that may lean right, some of that may lean upside down and inside out.
Lean right? Who are they since most have died, or only get trotted out when you need a figure head. It was very nice that you admitted some (and no doubt the majority) of your staff believe MON to be racist and and given the left believe that if you write a racist product you are a racist did any of your left leaning staff have the courage to say that to Larry DiTillio? Given your ok with staff publicly stating that MON is racist would you be ok with a staff member who voted for Trump saying publicly that the groups in A Cold Fire were a reference to the sort of people who support Trump?
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1090955Dude, it's Cthulu. Any mortal enemies you face are ultimately irrelevant.
Dude, that would have more impact if you could spell Cthulhu correctly.
Quote from: Gagarth;1091044Lean right? Who are they since most have died, or only get trotted out when you need a figure head. It was very nice that you admitted some (and no doubt the majority) of your staff believe MON to be racist and and given the left believe that if you write a racist product you are a racist did any of your left leaning staff have the courage to say that to Larry DiTillio.
Racist? I don't consider Larry's book to be racist. I consider it a masterpiece - his second best RPG work. I think that his treatment of various ethnic groups - although true to the old Pulp genre - did not age well, especially given our international audience. But hey, you can make up your own mind - Larry had read the new edition of Masks (admittedly without all the art) before he wrote his wonderful prologue to the book.
But it seems to me that you want to hold Chaosium up to the same ideological litmus tests that your hard-left mirror reflections do.
Quote from: Gagarth;1091044Given your ok with staff publicly stating that MON is racist would you be ok with a staff member who voted for Trump saying publicly that the groups in A Cold Fire were a reference to the sort of people who support Trump?
Chaosium staff shat on the original Masks campaign? LOL. What's next, bitching that rolling 2D10s is too patriarchal?
Gagarth, the answer to your question is very simple. Spend your money on other products with other companies.
I've been a CoC GM for decades, having run hundreds of convention games, but I'm done.
All the Lovecraftian investigation you want can be gained through non-Chaosium sources.
Quote from: richaje;1091064Racist? I don't consider Larry's book to be racist. I consider it a masterpiece - his second best RPG work. I think that his treatment of various ethnic groups - although true to the old Pulp genre - did not age well, especially given our international audience. But hey, you can make up your own mind - Larry had read the new edition of Masks (admittedly without all the art) before he wrote his wonderful prologue to the book.
But it seems to me that you want to hold Chaosium up to the same ideological litmus tests that your hard-left mirror reflections do.
I didn't state that it was you that believed that MON was racist and you already stated yourself that some of your staff believe that MON was so why are trying to dodge that with this? They think it was racist and is
still racist despite the woke rewrite.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3507[/ATTACH]
Quote from: richaje;1091064But it seems to me that you want to hold Chaosium up to the same ideological litmus tests that your hard-left mirror reflections do.
No I am not. I want game companies who have ideological litmus tests for their products to own up to them and New Chaosium is obviously such a company.
Quote from: richaje;1091064But hey, you can make up your own mind - Larry had read the new edition of Masks (admittedly without all the art) before he wrote his wonderful prologue to the book.
Given the current climate of deplatforming, unpersonning and witch-hunts do you really think he would have said anything?
How is MON "racist"?
Does it have actual racist elements incorporated into it? Or not Woke enough as a product? If it is the second than the staff at Chaosium is a special breed of stupid as far as I'm concerned. If as a developer one is going to hold a product made so many years ago to today standards then your asking to be called out for your stupidity. Even more so when as a company they are trying to pander to a demographic who has been shown to make a lot of noise to get what they want. Yet will not spend the money on more diverse and inclusive product. Sort of like how Marvel comics with both inside are being cancelled right and left.
I reacted when the Chaosium channel on Youtube promoted the new starter set. In part two, with some blonde actress named Jess (probably not even a Lovecraft reader or Keeper herself), I pointed out the stupidity of devoting time to bash Lovecraft for his racism, calling his personal views "distasteful and archaic" in a 2:45 long video meant to promote the starter box for a game based on said author's works. It's more or less like saying "Hey, buy our new shiny product based on Lovecraft's works. By the way, he was a racist prick!". Naturally, Chaosium closed the commentary section for that video part of the series (part 2). I find it quite distasteful to speak ill of a dead author that provides you with a paycheck today. I find it even more distasteful having a man of the early 1900s whos personal views you loathe as a cashcow.
We can even find a similar statement in the 24-page Book 2 of the Starter set (page 4):
"In spite of Lovecraft's distasteful racism and outdated personal views, we can find inspiration for gaming in his fictional creations."
I sometimes wonder what Lovecraft would think of Chaosium's authors if he had lived today? Maybe he would have written one or two of them a scathing letter? Maybe explaining the cat's name in Rats in the Walls properly for instance?
"What a boy he was! I watched him grow from a tiny black handful to one of the most fascinating & understanding creatures I've ever seen. He used to talk in a genuine language of varied intonations--a special tone for every different meaning. There was even a special "prrr'p" for the smell of roast chestnuts, on which he dotes. He used to play ball with me--kicking a large rubber sphere back at me from half across the room with all four feet as he lay on the floor. And on summer evenings in the twilight he would prove his kinship to the elfin things of shadow by racing across the lawn on nameless errands, darting into the blackness of the shrubbery now & then, & occasionally leaping at me from ambush & then bounding away again into invisibility before I could catch him."
H. P. Lovecraft to Harry O. Fischer, 10 Jan 1937, quoted in H. P. Lovecraft: A Biography 40
Talk about a bunch of hypocrites. Make money of Lovecraft while bashing him for his personal views. Oh well get woke go broke.
Quote from: Gagarth;1091838I didn't state that it was you that believed that MON was racist and you already stated yourself that some of your staff believe that MON was so why are trying to dodge that with this? They think it was racist and is still racist despite the woke rewrite.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3507[/ATTACH]
I find this Lynne Hardy person a bit intriguing. Why was she brought into the Chaosium fold? She doesn't even like horror movies according to the Chaosium website:
"Lynne doesn't like horror films much as they're far too scary, but she is rather fond of tea and fountain pens."So we have a female writer/line editor who finds horror movies too scary, currently writing a Call of Cthulhu campaign called "Children of fear". That seems like a brilliant choice. I mean, the least you could expect a Call of Cthulhu-writer to be, is a horror fan. Well, being fond of tea and fountain pens sure must be a credit at Chaosium.
I was very unaware of those quotes in Chaosium's books. It is pathetic a company is happy to profit from Lovecraft while disgracing him.
More reasons to spend your money elsewhere.
Chaosium owns nothing of the Lovecraft IP. Zero. Nada. None. They are shitting on something they never created and never paid for, but what makes their company exist.
I absolutely never thought I'd see the day where I abandoned Chaosium or promoting CoC to new players.
Lovecraft was a complex and troubled person in life. He was a wonderful writer with an wondrous imagination, a friend to many, and part of a corresponding group of writers (that included REH, CAS, and others) that created the genres of horror and heroic fantasy as we know it. He also wrote things that were racist, and anti-Semitic, and probably misogynistic as well. His fear of the "Other" - of foreigners, Jews, etc. "infecting" the "body of old stock" definitely influenced his writing, and can be seen in things like Shadows Over Innsmouth, the Horror at Red Hook, and the Thing on the Doorstep. But these were also major anxieties of his time, shared by many others - Lovecraft's horror is many of the deep fears of the modern world (and includes the fear that not only is there no benevolent God but that the "gods" are outright malevolent and hate us). Lovecraft's cosmos is a howling abyss and none dare stare too long into it without becoming a monster.
I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:
It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php
We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.
A last comment from me - we don't have ideological purity tests to work with Chaosium. If you create good work that sells (or that we are convinced has sufficient artistic merit that it will sell in the future) and that aesthetically fits with our other lines (all in my subjective opinion), you are welcome in Casa Chaosium. At the end of the day, the only real test is whether your work can make it in the free market in which we operate. But then again, I am a free market capitalist who is a partner in a successful for-profit corporation. Or as America's wisest pre-med/pre-law student once put it:
[video=youtube_share;6PYb_anBMus]https://youtu.be/6PYb_anBMus[/youtube]
Quote from: richaje;1091987Lovecraft was a complex and troubled person in life. He was a wonderful writer with an wondrous imagination, a friend to many, and part of a corresponding group of writers (that included REH, CAS, and others) that created the genres of horror and heroic fantasy as we know it. He also wrote things that were racist, and anti-Semitic, and probably misogynistic as well. His fear of the "Other" - of foreigners, Jews, etc. "infecting" the "body of old stock" definitely influenced his writing, and can be seen in things like Shadows Over Innsmouth, the Horror at Red Hook, and the Thing on the Doorstep. But these were also major anxieties of his time, shared by many others - Lovecraft's horror is many of the deep fears of the modern world (and includes the fear that not only is there no benevolent God but that the "gods" are outright malevolent and hate us). Lovecraft's cosmos is a howling abyss and none dare stare too long into it without becoming a monster.
I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:
It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php
We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.
Well, it's one thing to acknowledge that he was a flawed, troubled man with a great fear of the unknown, sloppily called xenophobia. It's another thing to make him sound like some racist, frothing freak that Chaosium feels the need to bring up from time to time, when he didn't differ all that much from other people back then. He just put things on paper that other people, maybe your grandfathers and greatgrandfathers, felt.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1091948I absolutely never thought I'd see the day where I abandoned Chaosium or promoting CoC to new players.
I never really played or ran COC yet even I am beginning to feel the same way. One can't even use Trail of Cthulhu as Pelgrane Press is worse and seems fully wanting to embracing their wokeness.
What gets me is that yes he was racist so were a bunch of people in Lovecrafts time. Unlike Chaosium who tries act like the era in which HPL was alive was simply just another version of 2019.
Quote from: richaje;1091987Lovecraft was a complex and troubled person in life. He was a wonderful writer with an wondrous imagination, a friend to many, and part of a corresponding group of writers (that included REH, CAS, and others) that created the genres of horror and heroic fantasy as we know it. He also wrote things that were racist, and anti-Semitic, and probably misogynistic as well. His fear of the "Other" - of foreigners, Jews, etc. "infecting" the "body of old stock" definitely influenced his writing, and can be seen in things like Shadows Over Innsmouth, the Horror at Red Hook, and the Thing on the Doorstep. But these were also major anxieties of his time, shared by many others - Lovecraft's horror is many of the deep fears of the modern world (and includes the fear that not only is there no benevolent God but that the "gods" are outright malevolent and hate us). Lovecraft's cosmos is a howling abyss and none dare stare too long into it without becoming a monster.
I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:
It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php
We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.
As usual what is missed is context and the era in which HPL lived and wrote his works in.
Lovecraft lived betwteen 1890-1937. For our time he was racist. For his time unfortunately his views were much too common. As usual the more social inclined think that 1890-1937 was just another version of 2019. It was not but of course as usual context and the prevalent views of the time are never taken into account. Not to mention making money off off HPL and then insulting the author is both in very poor taste and hypocritical. With all dues respect he is racist for Chaosium just not enough to stop making money off his works. So don't be surprised and offended if other members such as myself call you out on your hypocritical bullshit.
Not to mention that he suffered with what today would be treated as a severe psychological disorder, Xenophobia.
Quote from: richaje;1091990A last comment from me - we don't have ideological purity tests to work with Chaosium. If you create good work that sells (or that we are convinced has sufficient artistic merit that it will sell in the future) and that aesthetically fits with our other lines (all in my subjective opinion), you are welcome in Casa Chaosium. At the end of the day, the only real test is whether your work can make it in the free market in which we operate. But then again, I am a free market capitalist who is a partner in a successful for-profit corporation. Or as America's wisest pre-med/pre-law student once put it:
You should get job at the BBC they also use the same sort of spineless defence when they are defending their biased content.
Quote from: richaje;1091987Lovecraft was a complex and troubled person in life. He was a wonderful writer with an wondrous imagination, a friend to many, and part of a corresponding group of writers (that included REH, CAS, and others) that created the genres of horror and heroic fantasy as we know it. He also wrote things that were racist, and anti-Semitic, and probably misogynistic as well. His fear of the "Other" - of foreigners, Jews, etc. "infecting" the "body of old stock" definitely influenced his writing, and can be seen in things like Shadows Over Innsmouth, the Horror at Red Hook, and the Thing on the Doorstep. But these were also major anxieties of his time, shared by many others - Lovecraft's horror is many of the deep fears of the modern world (and includes the fear that not only is there no benevolent God but that the "gods" are outright malevolent and hate us). Lovecraft's cosmos is a howling abyss and none dare stare too long into it without becoming a monster.
I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:
It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php
We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.
Why don't you just admit you're fine profiting off someone you think is a terrible person?
I don't remember this level of wokeness in earlier Call of Cthulhu-editions, before the glossy colour and the pulp. Back when Call of Cthulhu aspired to be a real horror game I mean? Maybe I just missed the passages? Maybe it all started when World Fantasy award dropped the Lovecraft bust prize?
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/09/world-fantasy-award-drops-hp-lovecraft-as-prize-image
But S. T. Joshi, one of the world's foremost experts on Lovecraft raged against the decision. But of course, his opinion doesn't count.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/11/hp-lovecraft-biographer-rages-against-ditching-of-author-as-fantasy-prize-emblem
And for the Chaosium guy, I have some questions. Why the need to put this in the starter set:
"Racism has been part of the United States almost since the first white man stepped onto her shores to oppress her indigenous peoples"
If you are sincere about this statement, and totally neglect the fact that the native tribes loathed and slaughtered each other way before any white man was present, how can you live with the notion of being oppressor offspring, and probably still living on some stolen lot of land? How can you even enjoy anything in the predominant white USA when you know it's built upon the bones of the conquered and oppressed?
If that line is just pure virtue signaling...who are you signaling for? The native Americans who play Call of Cthulhu? Got any statistics on how many native Americans who play rpgs at all? How do you think white Americans Cthulhu-fans feel when they read that line? Or let me rephrase: How would you LIKE them to feel?
Hey, here's a novel idea. Donate all the Starter kit-money you get from from American white customers to native Americans, as a first step on your path to absolution?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1091810Chaosium staff shat on the original Masks campaign? LOL. What's next, bitching that rolling 2D10s is too patriarchal?
Gagarth, the answer to your question is very simple. Spend your money on other products with other companies.
I've been a CoC GM for decades, having run hundreds of convention games, but I'm done.
All the Lovecraftian investigation you want can be gained through non-Chaosium sources.
Who's putting out good stuff? The best non-Chaosium CoC stuff is Pelgrane Press, and if Chaosium's politics bother you, you ain't going to Pelgrane.
I won't buy new Chaosium products until they give me access to the products I already bought by restoring my store account.
Quote from: richaje;1091987I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:
It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php
We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.
In regards to HPL, this is entirely reasonable. In the 7th edition of the Keeper's book, I didn't find anything that really said otherwise. But can you also pledge that statements by Chaosium writers, staff and the like as well as any published materials will leave it at that?
There seems to be two issues at hand.
- The politicizing of HPL and ostracizing of HPL scholars and fans for enjoying his work and not jumping on that bandwagon. There seems to be a sizable contingent that take the view that if you aren't part of their solution then you must agree with HPLs views, and therefore should be openly shamed. This is what S.T. Joshi gets so riled about. As a company that ships HPL oriented products there shouldn't be any condoning of that, even passively.
- The inclusion of materials in Lovecraft derived products that apply stereotyped 'present-ist' and racist views of the era (even those applied to WASPs) or even current times that smacks of modern political views. As above, I haven't really seen this in core products, but if adventures and settings books from Chaosium are doing this, then you cannot really say that Chaosium isn't supporting it.
I think a lot of people (here and elsewhere) would like to see Chaosium express the more scholarly view on this, and there is a lot of good will towards Chaosium and CoC. What do you think?
Quote from: Lynn;1092050In regards to HPL, this is entirely reasonable. In the 7th edition of the Keeper's book, I didn't find anything that really said otherwise. But can you also pledge that statements by Chaosium writers, staff and the like as well as any published materials will leave it at that?
Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092052Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.
Perhaps not, but they can certainly ensure that such poison doesn't find its way into the product, and they can explicitly disassociate themselves from those writers, when said writers make statements about the product.
Such that when some dumb fuck makes the statement "You know you've done something right when idiots complain that the thing you've worked on isn't racist enough for them anymore..." the company who hired said dumb fuck can make their own statement, reassuring their customers that they don't feel that way, that they don't consider their customers idiots like their former contractor apparently does, etc. etc.
Or, they can mince around and tacitly agree with the dumb fuck, much like they're doing now.
Quote from: kythri;1092057Perhaps not, but they can certainly ensure that such poison doesn't find its way into the product, and they can explicitly disassociate themselves from those writers, when said writers make statements about the product.
Such that when some dumb fuck makes the statement "You know you've done something right when idiots complain that the thing you've worked on isn't racist enough for them anymore..." the company who hired said dumb fuck can make their own statement, reassuring their customers that they don't feel that way, that they don't consider their customers idiots like their former contractor apparently does, etc. etc.
Or, they can mince around and tacitly agree with the dumb fuck, much like they're doing now.
I have a feeling that the dumb fuck in question was hired to give Call of Cthulhu a touch of WOKE. She's clearly not a horror fan. But she really likes tea and reservoir pens. Probably rainbows too. Her Twitter is full of tweets where she calls people fascists, like Farage for instance. She has no idea what fascism is despite her PhD. She probably views all Brexiters as fascist too, including people I admire like actor John Cleese and Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092052Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.
Sure "on their own time and venues" is reasonable. They are not employees. However a freelancer that goes onto public boards and creates a stink that could reflect poorly on Chaosium is a good reason not to hire that freelancer again.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092052Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.
Don't hold them responsible for comments made by someone about the product they have been contacted work on? Catch a grip asshole.
Nu-Chaosium's latest crop of pregens for a scenario set in 20's Providence, RI
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3879[/ATTACH]
As I mentioned in another thread, more inclusive in the pile of dead investigators.
Quote from: Gagarth;1106746Chaosium's latest crop of pregens for a scenario set in 20's Providence, RI
Maybe they meant 2020.
Seriously, that's laughably transparent.
Quote from: Gagarth;1106746Chaosium's latest crop of pregens for a scenario set in 20's Providence, RI
What module is this from?
Quote from: jhkim;1106854What module is this from?
It looks like 'The Shadow Over Providence'. I'm basing this on the the fact that the images say 'The Shadow Over Providence.jpg'.
Looking at the quality of the limited amount of writing on display here, I get the feeling that whatever political BS is interjected into the scenario, is gonna be the least of its problems.
Quote from: yancy;1106862It looks like 'The Shadow Over Providence'. I'm basing this on the the fact that the images say 'The Shadow Over Providence.jpg'.
Looking at the quality of the limited amount of writing on display here, I get the feeling that whatever political BS is interjected into the scenario, is gonna be the least of its problems.
Thanks. I found the scenario. The given description is:
QuoteAugust 25th, 1928: Providence, Rhode Island.
The Milton Hotel cordially invites you to view the fantastical traveling exhibition "The Kingdom of Fire--Egypt's 18th Dynasty." All the way from the British Museum, London, England, come see these wonders of ancient Egypt, rare and priceless items from a time long ago. Learn about their history from Dr. Caitlin Bronson, the exhibition's curator, who will be on hand to answer all of your questions. Marvel at the treasures of Tutankhamun and Hatshepsut, along with the star of the exhibition, the mysterious canopic jar of Ibnhotep the Mad! Tickets are limited and going fast--and you don't want to miss out on what promises to be the most talked about exhibition of the year!
With an invitation like that, how could your investigators possibly refuse? Be they historians and scholars, or even those who ply the blackmarket trade in illicit antiquities, this is a rare opportunity to learn the secrets of the distant past outside of a museum. And what possible danger could there be in going to see the mortal remains of someone called "Ibnhotep the Mad"?
The Shadow Over Providence is a new Call of Cthulhu scenario set in a venue that may seem strangely familiar to anyone who has visited Providence's iconic Biltmore Hotel. The adventure was written by Jon Hook of the Miskatonic University Podcast, and developed and published by Chaosium, to celebrate NecronomiCon 2019.
Source: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/286946/The-Shadow-Over-Providence?manufacturers_id=2
I haven't read it yet. But it seems to me the post about the characters is missing a key point that the PCs are connected to an Egyptian traveling exhibition, rather than being random locals of Providence.
Quote from: jhkim;1106869Thanks. I found the scenario. The given description is:
Source: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/286946/The-Shadow-Over-Providence?manufacturers_id=2
I haven't read it yet. But it seems to me the post about the characters is missing a key point that the PCs are connected to an Egyptian traveling exhibition, rather than being random locals of Providence.
Wrong. Four of the other characters are from Providence and the other is from New York. Only one of the characters is from outside the U.S, the devout Muslim woman who is from a small rural town in Morocco. Here is some more background of that Credit Rating 30% character.
QuoteAs a reward for a life well-lived, full of devotion and service to her children, grandchildren, and late husband, Iman now takes great pleasure in traveling the world so she may capture it with her paints. She is currently touring a region in America known as New England - a beautiful land filled with hills and trees.
Upon reaching Providence, Iman packed her latest canvases up to be shipped back to her home in Morocco, then refreshed her artistic supplies ready for the next leg of her trip. She chose to stay for a couple of days in Providence in order to enjoy the sights of the city’s historical buildings. Iman checked into the Milton Hotel, and was intrigued to see an exhibition of Egyptian artifacts is currently on display there. After her evening meal, Iman elected to view the exhibition, centered on Eqypt’s 18th Dynasty; it is titled “The Kinqdom of Fire.”
It is obvious that the activist game companies, Like Nu-Chaosium, have a Lena Dunham style Inclusion Rider dictating what NPC's and Pregens they are creating.
Pregens from part one of Nu-Chaosium's latest organised play series Flotsam and Jetsam
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3880[/ATTACH]
Well, I did read the first couple pages of this 'Shadow Over Providence' thing, and it's uninspired, and cookie-cutter, and generally low quality all around in ways that aren't limited to whatever reflexive PC tendencies the writer has (the stuff about 'Shoggoth Lords' actually pissed me off more than those pregens.) So with those Flotsam & Jetsam cards, I'd say it's a coin toss whether they're being PC, or just cheap and lazy. Or I guess I guess they could be killing two birds with one stone.
You aren't paying them for this stuff, are you? And WTF is a 'Shoggoth Lord?' It sounds like some crap from either a collectible card game, or a video game.
Quote from: jhkim;1106869I haven't read it yet. But it seems to me the post about the characters is missing a key point that the PCs are connected to an Egyptian traveling exhibition, rather than being random locals of Providence.
Quote from: Gagarth;1106998Wrong. Four of the other characters are from Providence and the other is from New York. Only one of the characters is from outside the U.S, the devout Muslim woman who is from a small rural town in Morocco. Here is some more background of that Credit Rating 30% character.
Fair enough. I did say I hadn't read it yet. When all you posted was her picture, this wasn't clear. If the PCs had been connected to the Egyptian exhibition, then this could have been fine in my view. But with the added information, I agree that it sounds ahistorical, which is something I generally dislike in CoC adventures.
Quote from: yancy;1107170So with those Flotsam & Jetsam cards, I'd say it's a coin toss whether they're being PC, or just cheap and lazy. Or I guess I guess they could be killing two birds with one stone.
Is the issue that the images on the character sheet are a woman's head? That's the symbol for the 1920s era. It's not supposed to be a character image. Having a flapper as a symbol for the 1920s goes back a while for Chaosium. Below on the left are the 5th edition symbols for the eras (1890s vs 1920s), versus the more recent symbols for the eras.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3883[/ATTACH]
Indeed, they used the flapper all over the place long before 5th edition. I don't recall exactly how they typically handled 'generic portraits on pre-generated characters.' I mostly remember that the character sheets had a blank space for you to draw something in :/
Coincidentally enough, I also remember 5th edition being the time when I started noticing a tendency for nagging PC lectures creeping into the product ('Dead Man Stomp', etc.), as well as a trend towards diminishing product quality ('Dead Man Stomp', etc.). That's hardly 'Nu Chaosium' so if it's evidence of proto-wokeness, that crap started a long long time ago.
I'm not sure when the Shoggoth Lord entered the mix though.
If you're loving what Nu-Chaosium is producing, you should definitely give them more money!!
Without your money, they won't know how much you love their new products!
The core books, I'm good with. Published adventures are always hit and miss. My current GM put up his CoC books when the starter adventure told him where to kill a player. He didn't need no stinking help in killing us. We gave him all the opportunity on our own. ;)
I'm a bit confused as to why this is in the Pundit's forum and not the main forum. Was it originally in the main forum?
An excellent candidate to be moved. Everyone that has posted here, roll a 1d6/2 SAN loss as thread is moved to the proper board.
This is the same sort of ideology that fuels Nu-Chaosium https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29335604/lord-of-the-rings-actress-gandalf-woman-amazon-tv-series/ (https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29335604/lord-of-the-rings-actress-gandalf-woman-amazon-tv-series/). Queue Jkhim's defence of the idea.
Quote from: Gagarth;1107540This is the same sort of ideology that fuels Nu-Chaosium https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29335604/lord-of-the-rings-actress-gandalf-woman-amazon-tv-series/ (https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29335604/lord-of-the-rings-actress-gandalf-woman-amazon-tv-series/). Queue Jkhim's defence of the idea.
They forgot the gender queer non-binary hobbits? And I won't watch unless I get a non-white trans Aragorn!
Tofu and carob for elevenses!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1107644They forgot the gender queer non-binary hobbits? And I won't watch unless I get a non-white trans Aragorn!
Tofu and carob for elevenses!
Yes yes, a trans Aragorn is all well and good, but what about my female Gandalf? (https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a29335604/lord-of-the-rings-actress-gandalf-woman-amazon-tv-series/)
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1090409Here's the first paragraph of the introduction of the bad guys.
(blah blah quoted for review blah blah no challenge blah blah).
I'm not seeing anything particularly problematic with this so far. I suppose if you look hard enough, you can see anti-Trumpism in the shadows. Is the SJW stuff further in?
Also I had never heard of "National Union for Social Justice" but I find the name of the outfit just plain hilarious.
Bemusingly. Sinclair Lewis' novel, "It Can't Happen Here", was the basis for the original TV series "V" as it was originally rejected by the execs untill it was re-submitted as an alien invasion story.
Quote from: Gagarth;1107008Pregens from part one of Nu-Chaosium's latest organised play series Flotsam and Jetsam
image
er... What is supposed to be wrong with these characters? That there are 4 women on the page and 2 men? Arent there any more pregen characters?
Wonder when the SJWs will turn on CoC itself for being based on a racist's work.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1108035Wonder when the SJWs will turn on CoC itself for being based on a racist's work.
They already have, if you think about it. Chaosium products are no longer for people who want to fight the Cthulthu Mythos, but for people who want to fight the ghost of H. P. Lovecraft.
Moved.
Roll 1d6/2 +4 SAN loss and continue posting in the thread due to moving to the correct forum. If your SAN drops low enough, add a quirk or just get a beer from the fridge.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1108044They already have, if you think about it. Chaosium products are no longer for people who want to fight the Cthulthu Mythos, but for people who want to fight the ghost of H. P. Lovecraft.
I'm just thinking that even that might not be pure enough in the future since the source of it is tainted with an original sin.
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1108044They already have, if you think about it. Chaosium products are no longer for people who want to fight the Cthulthu Mythos, but for people who want to fight the ghost of H. P. Lovecraft.
I think this is true of most popular media and Scifi/Fantasy sites as well. Anyone in the press covering a topic related to Lovecraft always calls out his racism. I believe they do so because otherwise they will get a lot of hate mail / comments from those that are too academically incapable of separating a subject from the author.
"Lovecraft Country" and the Nick Cage movie are only going to make this worse.
Quote from: Lynn;1108289I think this is true of most popular media and Scifi/Fantasy sites as well. Anyone in the press covering a topic related to Lovecraft always calls out his racism.
Yeah, I've noticed the beating of that drum, and it annoys me. I won't deny for a second that Lovecraft had a lot of issues... and that these fueled his creations. But I'm not sure I see urgent necessity of bringing it up EVERY FUCKING TIME his name drops.
I can't think of any other popular writer who I've seen people do this with... maybe Marion Zimmer Bradley (much more recent and someone who I'd say was worse than Lovecraft in her actual misdeeds)?
There are a number of popular artists that were/are horrible people (and beyond merely having dumb opinions), yet you don't see a litany of their sins repeated in EVERY article about them.
I suspect it has more to do with needling some assumed fandom of Lovecraft's than it does any actual bother about the man himself.
In a more general sense, I see no point in this obsession for looking up the skirts of dead folks when we have plenty of evil fuckers in the here-and-now to deal with.
Quote from: S'mon;1090198PDF is on sale here - https://www.chaosium.com/a-cold-fire-within-pdf/
Wow, that art is terrible. Cthulhu already suffers for being a cartoony bad guy so drawing the mythos as an actual cartoon doesn't help.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1108409Wow, that art is terrible.
It's not bad, IMO, but it's not really giving me a vibe of atmospheric horror. It looks more like a Batman-style cartoon aimed at pulpy action/adventure, which I assume was its intent.
Odd how the font choice for the title of the pdf is reminiscent of the typography of an 80s metal cover. Registers as a bit incongruous.
I actually kind of like the art from what I can see of it.
QuoteIt looks more like a Batman-style cartoon aimed at pulpy action/adventure, which I assume was its intent.
The module
is written for Pulp Cthulhu after all.
As for the claims made by the OP...well, all I can say is that I'm interested enough in the synopsis for the module to pick it up, read it and decide for myself. If it ends up being all that's claimed up thread, I guess I consider myself to have been duly warned. I'm still kind of hoping there's a fun, pulpy adventure to be had there though.
Pregens for Nu-Chaosium's The Quest of the Red Blade for Pendragon
Male Roman Christain Knight from Eburacum
Male Irish Christain Knight from Estergales
Female Lesbian Christian Knight from Wuerensis
Male Gay Christain Knight frmom Benoit
Female pagan Knight from Lothian
Male Berber Saracen Faris (Knight)
I could not give two craps whether there is liberal or conservative views interspersed in this product. The fact that there may be an extremist socio-political organisation is fine for a 1930s Pulp Cthulhu campaign.
What puts me off is the cover artwork:
The font style looks like it's from a Heavy Metal album, and the characters depicted on the cover look like goofy villains from a Scooby-Do cartoon. If Chaosium wants to portray Pulp Cthulhu then the artwork needs to look like a classic serial, or like an Indiana Jones or Mummy movie poster.
Their previous Pulp Cthulhu campaign, The Two-Headed Serpent, has a great cover, so I don't know what they were thinking this time.
The art direction is just wrong, and that frames it for me. I doubt I'll get a hard copy of this.
Quote from: Mankcam;1110776I could not give two craps whether there is liberal or conservative views interspersed in this product. The fact that there may be a Nazi link is fine for a 1930s Pulp Cthulhu campaign.
What puts me off is the cover artwork:
Since I was curious, here's the two covers. I totally agree, The Two-Headed Serpent artwork is far superior. Personally, cover artwork isn't a big deal for me, but I can clearly see the contrast.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3928[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3932[/ATTACH]
Have you read The Two-Headed Serpent, and did you have any thoughts on the content?
I'm with Mankcam, don't really care about all this political whinging. The artwork in recent Chaosium releases has really dropped in quality however. It's unfortunate, because you get something like their recent Starter Set, which is one of the best introductory box sets and should be a model for the whole industry, but they slap some weirdass faces over a neon green house on the cover.
As for Two-Headed Serpent, it's a quality adventure. I ran it for a group last year. Thoughts on on my blog here (https://crawlingforcoppers.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-two-headed-serpent-for-pulp-cthulhu_12.html) if you're interested.
I'm with Mankcam, don't really care about all this political whinging. The artwork in recent Chaosium releases has really dropped in quality however. It's unfortunate, because you get something like their recent Starter Set, which is one of the best introductory box sets and should be a model for the whole industry, but they slap some weirdass faces over a neon green house on the cover.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3935[/ATTACH]
As for Two-Headed Serpent, it's a quality adventure. I ran it for a group last year. Thoughts on on my blog here (https://crawlingforcoppers.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-two-headed-serpent-for-pulp-cthulhu_12.html) if you're interested.
Here is a straight up admission that Nu-Choasium practices activism despite Jeff Richards stating otherwise.
QuoteWe also try to make sure our investigators and NPCs are as diverse as they can be, because everybody deserves to see themselves represented in gaming. The world is not just straight white people, so neither should be those you meet in a game. The world of Call of Cthulhu is a reflection of our world, so we try to show that in our books - in the characters, the history, and in our guidance.
Lynne Hardy (Nu-Chaosium's politcal Commisar) Bayt al Azif #02
Everyone is a crank about something. By crank, I mean outraged at something that doesn't bother many other people.
Wyzard is horrified that we have a sleazy carnival barker for president.
Darren Kelley thinks the center of all evil in the universe is a HERO character generation function.
Gamedaddy sees Pedophile recruitment in certain RPG settings.
Me, I think Getmo was an excellent reason for impeaching Bush the younger (It's nice to know that now that we have latino internment camps, others question the idea of just rounding up people for the lulz).
Quote from: Gagarth;1110501Pregens for Nu-Chaosium's The Quest of the Red Blade for Pendragon
Male Roman Christain Knight from Eburacum
Male Irish Christain Knight from Estergales
Female Lesbian Christian Knight from Wuerensis
Male Gay Christain Knight frmom Benoit
Female pagan Knight from Lothian
Male Berber Saracen Faris (Knight)
Which brings me to Gagarth's problem with the political slant of recent Chaosium products. Y'know what? I agree. As I said above, I'm not interesting in fighting the ghost of Lovecraft and his times. Jackson Elias in now Black? Interesting wrinkle, but I'm not sure we need more complications in MON. MON:NYC is expanded to include a framed Black man? The NYC chapter could use some expansion. And the scenario can be used as a direct link to the Harlem Sourcebook. But...l am not interested in role playing the lives of second class citizens a century ago. So I don't.
Here's my retake on Gagarth's post:
Knight from Eburacum
Knight from Estergales
Knight from Wuerensis
Knight frmom Benoit
Knight from Lothian
Saracen Faris (Knight)
As a general rule, I am utterly disinterested in the ancestry, sex, or sexual preference of my characters. Religion is of more importance, given the setting, but all of these are roleplaying hooks to be worked out between me and my players, nothing more.
It did strike me in the CoC starter set, not only were the iconic characters in the artwork a diverse set, which is par for the course these days, but that there was a clear hierarchy in the level of prominence/agency of the characters: 1. White(ish) female 2. Black man 3. White man. This is apparent from their depictions not just on the cover but through all the art.
Quote from: The_Shadow;1111335It did strike me in the CoC starter set, not only were the iconic characters in the artwork a diverse set, which is par for the course these days, but that there was a clear hierarchy in the level of prominence/agency of the characters: 1. White(ish) female 2. Black man 3. White man. This is apparent from their depictions not just on the cover but through all the art.
Those pregens didn't bother me at all. They are all built using the array, so if some players want to use the pregens and some don't, it will still be fair for everyone. I don't intend to play the pulp variant, but am curious if those characters use the array or not.
For those that don't play CoC, you can generate characters by rolling (3d6 x5 for some stats and 2d6+6 x5 for others), point buy with 460 points, or use an array that adds up to 460 points.
The pregens in Masks of Nyarlathotep were not built with the same considerations. There are two African American guys and one Indian guy and those 3 are more powerful than all the rest (520, 535, and 550 points worth of stats). Contrast that with the white "Marlboro Man" character who has the "normal" 460. The 6 other characters are between those extremes.
This sort of thing isn't exactly new. Back in the day, no one wanted to be Flint or Tanis when they could be Caramon with his vastly superior stats. Still, you have to wonder what this is intended to accomplish.
My solution was to just roll my eyes and make my own set of pregens using the array, as several of my players like using them. Pick the one you like the best and you'll be roughly on par with everyone else. Rest assured, I've got women and minorities in the mix! Still, kind of irritating.
Sounds like Masks has it's version of Caramon then with those two. And pulp Mythos tends to be a bit more Howardian the Lovecraftian. So a more diverse group makes since, since well the players are underdogs against some horrid elder horror. If you're pulp.
Quote from: Conanist;1111620The pregens in Masks of Nyarlathotep were not built with the same considerations. There are two African American guys and one Indian guy and those 3 are more powerful than all the rest (520, 535, and 550 points worth of stats). Contrast that with the white "Marlboro Man" character who has the "normal" 460.
How much more activist can you get than that. I would not be surprised if the next Pulp Cthulhu product was inspired by HBO's Watchmen.
Quote from: Gagarth;1090430From Reading it, it is obvious they are using the League of Forgotten Men as an allegory for Trump and his supporters.
Thought Jeff Richard did a pretty good job of clarifying the source material drawn upon to create this campaign which has nothing directly to do with Trump, I think it is only natural that people find parallels between early 20th-century fascism and modern-day Trumpism (or neo-Bonapartist patrimonialism).
As with German Nazis and Russian Communists, I fully expect that in 10-20 years Trump and his supporters (or an unnamed carbon copy) to be a common enough foe in all sorts of media, be it movies, video games, books, or even RPGs.
Personally, I think a modern-day personality cult is the perfect source material for a future Delta Green campaign.