Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2024, 11:43:15 AMTake WotC/Hasbro, they OWN the rights to a lot of art/writing, they can afford to buy the rights to even more, then train a local instance of AI to give them new stuff.

Hasbro, no. wotc... very.
For a 200 card run of a magic set of card that cost wotc 60k or more back in the 90s every art piece cost between 250 and 500$. I know. I footed the bill for art for some cards for a CCG. Ne Ne Thomas was getting 500$ a piece.

But for 5e wotc was hiring people off DA and odds are paying nowhere near that.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 23, 2024, 08:36:41 PMHOWEVER, then my cynical instincts kicked in, and now I'm wondering if this isn't a means of "kicking the ladder down behind you". Chaosium and Kobold Press are large publishers, at least relative to the RPG industry in general. They can afford to hire artists and have the connections to easily do so. Meanwhile, getting decent art for your book is one of the bigger hurdles to the independent or solo RPG writer.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2024, 11:43:15 AMIt's all fine and good if you're doing a generic fantasy game, but...

If you're doing a game with UNIQUE monsters? not even a wall of text describing them is as good as a drawing. Take my Sword & Planet game I have about 80-100 UNIQUE monsters, that's 5,000 dollars just for that, thank God I did the Cover "art" myself.

These are the relevant concerns I see. AI art is a great equaliser that's going to be an important asset for small publishers. This continues a trend started by widely available desktop publishing, and continuing with online distribution, crowdfunding, and print-on-demand. All of these created openings that creators, previously locked out of publishing and distribution opportunities, could use. A lot of what we see in modern RPG publishing is an outcome of that - otherwise, it'd still be companies like WotC, Paizo, Chaosium and other large incumbents that'd tell you what to play, and even what you get to see.

Does AI art result in a lot of soulless junk? Yes. It can also create pretty fine stuff, too. But what matters is that it does the job. The realities of small-scale publishing is that you have a budget for the important pieces, and for the rest, it is free art, whether it is mediaeval woodcuts, Victorian engravings, stock art, or AI. None of these are ideal, but all of them have some potential. There has been examples of thoughtless use for each (if I see another out-of-context Doré piece, I am just reaching for my battleaxe), but all can be put to good use. However, as GeekyBugle writes, copyright-lapsed and stock art tend to be thematically restricted: mediaeval (lots), general high fantasy (some, not always a good fit for a more serious game), Arabic, Greek and Roman (not that much that's not columns and statues), and then all the rest.

If AI can do some of it, and you use AI well, that's a good outcome. And for the most important stuff, if you have the money, you can commission artists whose work speaks to you. I am doing this, and have about three times as much budget per release to spend these days then when I started (that was out of pocket; it is now out of previous profits). But I am not WotC, and not even Chaosium. I am a successful niche player, so this is how far that budget goes. And I will never tell some guy who just wants to publish his pamphlet that "Nope, that's against the rules, sorry. Serious players only." Because that's low.

Art has been an issue from day-1 of the hobby.  Hell, even in the Whitebox version of D&D they were using shady tactics.  They traced super heroes out of comic books, gave them more fantasy touches like horned helmets, and that was their art.



I know for a fact that AI art is not going anywhere.  Why?   If it's useful to the porn industry, it's here to stay.  And you better believe that AI nudes are a thing.

Quote from: Mishihari on September 25, 2024, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 25, 2024, 02:58:03 PMThis is the same bitching and complaining that has happened anytime someone's precious industry is threatened with extinction.  Adapt or die.  A good artist can do wonders with all the tools out there.

A lot of folks say this until it's their own livelihood or passion that's going away.  Also, a really big issue with this is that many people train their AIs on artists' work without compensating them, which is essentially stealing all of the years they've put into learning their craft.  The laws need to expand to deal with this.

That's funny. I seem to remember a different group saying something like this, and artists (among other people) telling them, "Learn to code."

Also, these artists who's work was stolen to train the AI... how did they learn their craft again? Oh right, by stealing other artists' work and using it to practice. That argument never carried any water, and everyone knows it.

The theft argument is retarded anyway.  There's no difference between AI using "real" art for references and an artist using them for references.  They're just butthurt that AI can do it better than a lot of artists who charge money for shitty product.

Quote from: David Johansen on September 23, 2024, 09:53:42 PMHere at Uncouth Savage Games we are taking an equal rights stance against all intelligence, artificial and natural.  Join with us to reject all reason and knowledge!

I agree!

"Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind." ―Frank Herbert, Dune

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." ―Frank Herbert, Dune

"What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking―there's the real danger." ―Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines...Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed." ―Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

Read more: https://gwern.net/dune#butlerian-jihad

Quote from: Mishihari on September 25, 2024, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 25, 2024, 02:58:03 PMThis is the same bitching and complaining that has happened anytime someone's precious industry is threatened with extinction.  Adapt or die.  A good artist can do wonders with all the tools out there.

A lot of folks say this until it's their own livelihood or passion that's going away.  Also, a really big issue with this is that many people train their AIs on artists' work without compensating them, which is essentially stealing all of the years they've put into learning their craft.  The laws need to expand to deal with this.

My livelihood can and may end up going away.  You know how I'm going to survive? My pivoting to make sure my skills are valued, needed, and useful for the future by adapating and not going "Oh the AIz took MAI Jobz!"

Art is Art and has been copied since the stone age by other artists and iterative design is what art is all about.  A good artist is worth time and money just like any profession.   One must be better than their competition or fall to the wayside.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 26, 2024, 01:11:50 PM"Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind." ―Frank Herbert, Dune

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." ―Frank Herbert, Dune

"What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking―there's the real danger." ―Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines...Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed." ―Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

Read more: https://gwern.net/dune#butlerian-jihad

Quiet, you! 

At least not until after we get to the sex-bot stage. 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 26, 2024, 01:11:50 PM"Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind." ―Frank Herbert, Dune

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." ―Frank Herbert, Dune

"What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking―there's the real danger." ―Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines...Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed." ―Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

Read more: https://gwern.net/dune#butlerian-jihad

So we should burn the automated looms, smelters and forges, cars should be built by artisans, ban GPS, ban your phone from being able to call someone without you punching in the phone number every time.

Ban the automated press and return to having the monks make every book by hand.

Also, this: https://mashable.com/article/ai-stock-bubble-burst

This ChatGPT's take on Kobold press:

Prompt:  build a 5E monster stat block where Kobold Press is taking a stand against AI

Result:

Gnomarch of the Written Word
Medium humanoid (gnome), lawful good

Armor Class 18 (Robes of Safeguarding)
Hit Points 150 (20d8 + 60)
Speed 30 ft.

STR 12 (+1) | DEX 16 (+3) | CON 16 (+3) | INT 20 (+5) | WIS 18 (+4) | CHA 14 (+2)

Saving Throws Int +10, Wis +8, Cha +6
Skills Arcana +10, Insight +8, Persuasion +6, History +10
Damage Resistances Psychic, Radiant
Condition Immunities Charmed, Frightened
Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Passive Perception 14
Languages Common, Gnomish, Draconic, Infernal
Challenge 14 (11,500 XP)
Proficiency Bonus +5

Traits
Aura of Creativity.
All creatures within 30 feet of the Gnomarch of the Written Word gain advantage on ability checks and saving throws to resist charm effects or illusions created by artificial intelligence, constructs, or magical automation. They also have advantage on Intelligence (History) checks involving written works.

Arcane Shield of Ingenuity (Recharge 5-6).
As a reaction to being attacked, the Gnomarch can summon an arcane shield of pure thought, gaining a +5 bonus to AC until the start of its next turn. If the attacker is a construct, they take 4d6 psychic damage upon hitting the shield.

Wordsmith's Vengeance.
When the Gnomarch strikes a construct or AI-controlled creature with a spell or weapon, it can use its reaction to force the target to make a DC 18 Intelligence saving throw. On a failure, the target's intelligence score is reduced by 1d4 (minimum 1) until the Gnomarch takes a long rest. This ability bypasses immunities and resistances to psychic damage.

Actions
Multiattack.
The Gnomarch of the Written Word makes two Pen of Power attacks.

Pen of Power. Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 18 (3d8 + 5) force damage. If the target is a construct, it takes an additional 10 (3d6) psychic damage.

Rebuking Ink (Recharge 5-6).
The Gnomarch conjures a wave of spectral ink that surges forth in a 60-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 18 Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 35 (10d6) psychic damage and is blinded for 1 minute. On a successful save, the creature takes half damage and isn't blinded.

Dissolution of Automation (Recharge 6).
The Gnomarch releases a pulse of anti-machine energy in a 30-foot radius centered on itself. Each construct or AI-driven creature in the radius must make a DC 18 Constitution saving throw, taking 45 (10d8) radiant damage on a failed save or half as much on a success. Constructs that fail this saving throw are stunned for 1 minute.

Legendary Actions
The Gnomarch of the Written Word can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time, and it can only be used at the end of another creature's turn. The Gnomarch regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Creativity Surge. The Gnomarch regains a spell slot of 5th level or lower.

Counter Automation. The Gnomarch forces a construct or AI creature within 60 feet to make a DC 18 Intelligence saving throw. On a failure, it takes 20 (5d6) psychic damage, and its next attack roll is made with disadvantage.

Font of Inspiration (Costs 2 Actions). The Gnomarch blesses a creature within 30 feet, granting them advantage on all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks until the end of their next turn.

Description:
The Gnomarch of the Written Word is an ancient gnome wizard whose very existence has been dedicated to the protection of creative expression. They lead a movement against the overuse of magical automation and artificial intelligences that suppress originality and art. Their powers represent the force of ingenuity, intellectual resistance, and a disdain for the soulless replication of genuine works.

This creature could serve as a powerful ally or antagonist in a campaign that involves themes of creativity versus automation!

LOL, that's pretty creative.  I probably would have went with a kobold sized internet troll.  :-)

Quote from: Corolinth on September 26, 2024, 08:27:50 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on September 25, 2024, 06:50:28 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 25, 2024, 02:58:03 PMThis is the same bitching and complaining that has happened anytime someone's precious industry is threatened with extinction.  Adapt or die.  A good artist can do wonders with all the tools out there.

A lot of folks say this until it's their own livelihood or passion that's going away.  Also, a really big issue with this is that many people train their AIs on artists' work without compensating them, which is essentially stealing all of the years they've put into learning their craft.  The laws need to expand to deal with this.

That's funny. I seem to remember a different group saying something like this, and artists (among other people) telling them, "Learn to code."

Also, these artists who's work was stolen to train the AI... how did they learn their craft again? Oh right, by stealing other artists' work and using it to practice. That argument never carried any water, and everyone knows it.

People talk about AI using the same terms they use to talk about people, which is confusing because learning and "machine learning" are very different things.  People come up with new creative ways to do things and use what they've seen other people do as inspiration.  All AI does is copy patterns.  I actually had a conversation recently about this with a new friend who moved into the area for work developing AI software in medical applications.  I took the AI available classes in grad school and did some software development with it, so I was curious if the fancy new AI like ChatGPT or art generators were fundamentally different than what I learned.  He said "No, all the AI can do is tell you what comes next that fits the pattern.  It's the same thing."

So if you train an AI on an artist's work, it can learn the patterns and sort of replicate their style, but it's not contributing anything new, unlike a human artist.  It's just copying the most important part of the artist's work.   That's morally theft of their intellectual property and should be made so legally as well, unless of course the artist gives permission to use his work.

Some humans create new things by combining old things, I think an AI can do that.  Is it creative or coincidental?  Does it matter it as long as another human finds value in it?