Ok, so google recommended this article to me today.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2024/09/chaosium-joins-kobold-press-and-others-in-taking-a-stand-against-ai.html

On the face of things, I'm with them. I think AI generated content is generally lame, and will have a long-term effect of making pretty much every artistic medium worse.

HOWEVER, then my cynical instincts kicked in, and now I'm wondering if this isn't a means of "kicking the ladder down behind you". Chaosium and Kobold Press are large publishers, at least relative to the RPG industry in general. They can afford to hire artists and have the connections to easily do so. Meanwhile, getting decent art for your book is one of the bigger hurdles to the independent or solo RPG writer.

Anyone else think like this, or am I being overly cynical?

Taking a stand against AI is the latest form of virtue-signaling.

AI art doesn't make anything easier for novitiate RPG designers, it makes it harder, because it's based on an esthetic lie.

AI art is lurid, derivative, and takes the mind in the wrong direction, away from any human intent. It's dastardly ironic that a human-centric game like D&D would be pervaded by machine-vomit.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on September 23, 2024, 08:55:04 PMAI art doesn't make anything easier for novitiate RPG designers, it makes it harder, because it's based on an esthetic lie.

I would agree with you, except that I'm pretty sure an RPG book with AI art is going to sell better on average than a book with either no art or very bad human-made art.

Here at Uncouth Savage Games we are taking an equal rights stance against all intelligence, artificial and natural.  Join with us to reject all reason and knowledge!

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 23, 2024, 09:29:44 PMI would agree with you, except that I'm pretty sure an RPG book with AI art is going to sell better on average than a book with either no art or very bad human-made art.

If it has a good enough sales vehicle and enough people don't care, yes. But if you are depending on sales venues that don't accept AI art, you have a problem.

Bad art and no art are both bad, but what about less art that has more express purpose within a product?

A lot of art doesn't seem to have a purpose. Some of the larger publishers come up with rich and expensive spreads that in turn, justify jacked up prices, but much of it doesn't really aid the 'play' of the game.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 23, 2024, 08:36:41 PMAnyone else think like this, or am I being overly cynical?

Not as cynical as me.

I expect them to just turn around and use AI on the sly. Kobold Press has used underhanded tactics before and Chaosium has dirty hands as well. If the two I think Chaosium will at least try to stay clean longer. KP on the other hand I expect to be using it already.

I'm not as opposed to AI art as others might be.  Hell, I installed Stable Diffusion with the Comfy User Interface on my PC even though it's below minimum spec. My AI works, but it's slow.

However, it's still WAY faster at drawing a picture than I am. 

Also, just so people know this about me, I am an amateur 3D artist.  I've even made 3D models for commercial video games. Mainly, the MMO called Pirates of the Burning Sea (it's not a popular game, but I had fun working on it), and mods for the freeware space flight sim "Orbiter Sim".  I also have some STL files online for people to 3D print little miniatures that I made. 

So, as an "artist", am I scared of AI?  No, clearly, or I wouldn't have installed it and use it.

It's not going to go away.  Also, if I want to write an RPG myself, I would use AI art for the pictures. 

Would I use AI to write the text?  No.  I can do that.

But, if I'm making an anime mecha-knight RPG and I need a picture, AI art like this seems like a viable option.

I use Fooocus with a JuggernautXL_Lightning model and get pretty good performance for my potato of a PC.  Fooocus has a pretty low memory footprint and any of the Lightning series of models out there can do good work with fewer steps.

Dragon Monk Illustration

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 23, 2024, 08:36:41 PMOk, so google recommended this article to me today.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2024/09/chaosium-joins-kobold-press-and-others-in-taking-a-stand-against-ai.html

On the face of things, I'm with them. I think AI generated content is generally lame, and will have a long-term effect of making pretty much every artistic medium worse.

HOWEVER, then my cynical instincts kicked in, and now I'm wondering if this isn't a means of "kicking the ladder down behind you". Chaosium and Kobold Press are large publishers, at least relative to the RPG industry in general. They can afford to hire artists and have the connections to easily do so. Meanwhile, getting decent art for your book is one of the bigger hurdles to the independent or solo RPG writer.

Anyone else think like this, or am I being overly cynical?

I've been saying this for a while in regards to the cries to regulate/ban AI.

Take WotC/Hasbro, they OWN the rights to a lot of art/writing, they can afford to buy the rights to even more, then train a local instance of AI to give them new stuff.

Meanwhile the solo/indie developer can't, and, at 50 bucks a piece for B&W drawings the cost increases very fast.

It's all fine and good if you're doing a generic fantasy game, but...

If you're doing a game with UNIQUE monsters? not even a wall of text describing them is as good as a drawing. Take my Sword & Planet game I have about 80-100 UNIQUE monsters, that's 5,000 dollars just for that, thank God I did the Cover "art" myself.

Blah, blah vomit
Blah, blah stealing

I expect this is just a "we're not WotC" statement to try to collect the crumbs of marketshare which actually departs D&D over AI usage.

I think this is a case where everyone involved is wrong on something. AI is incredibly useful, but at the same time the ones I have messed with need all sorts of copy-editing diaper changes to be useful. It's better to think of AI as an intern design partner you can make do some menial tasks and ask some interesting questions to, but don't expect any of them to keep up with you if you start doing something new and bold, and at the end of the day you have to take what it says with a grain of salt.

Get fucked CoC and KP.  No one cares that there's AI art or Not.  What they expect is GOOD art that doesn't look like someone spaghetti spewed materials over an item and the hands and feet aren't mongolodian.

This is the same bitching and complaining that has happened anytime someone's precious industry is threatened with extinction.  Adapt or die.  A good artist can do wonders with all the tools out there.

They may not use AI, but given how sanitized their current work is due to targeting modern audiences it'll be all but indistinguishable from it.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on September 23, 2024, 08:55:04 PMAI art doesn't make anything easier for novitiate RPG designers, it makes it harder, because it's based on an esthetic lie.

AI art is lurid, derivative, and takes the mind in the wrong direction, away from any human intent. It's dastardly ironic that a human-centric game like D&D would be pervaded by machine-vomit.

Keep telling yourself that.

Meanwhile...

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 24, 2024, 09:09:47 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 23, 2024, 08:36:41 PMI'm wondering if this isn't a means of "kicking the ladder down behind you". Chaosium and Kobold Press are large publishers, at least relative to the RPG industry in general. They can afford to hire artists and have the connections to easily do so. Meanwhile, getting decent art for your book is one of the bigger hurdles to the independent or solo RPG writer.

Which is an ironically privileged position to take. But if they didn't have double standards...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2024, 11:43:15 AMI've been saying this for a while in regards to the cries to regulate/ban AI.

Take WotC/Hasbro, they OWN the rights to a lot of art/writing, they can afford to buy the rights to even more, then train a local instance of AI to give them new stuff.

Meanwhile the solo/indie developer can't, and, at 50 bucks a piece for B&W drawings the cost increases very fast.

And if you think that's dire here, wait till you see what the music industry has planned.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2024, 11:43:15 AMIt's all fine and good if you're doing a generic fantasy game, but...

If you're doing a game with UNIQUE monsters? not even a wall of text describing them is as good as a drawing. Take my Sword & Planet game I have about 80-100 UNIQUE monsters, that's 5,000 dollars just for that, thank God I did the Cover "art" myself.

Blah, blah vomit
Blah, blah stealing

Which is exactly why AI won't replace real artists.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on September 25, 2024, 02:58:03 PMThis is the same bitching and complaining that has happened anytime someone's precious industry is threatened with extinction.  Adapt or die.  A good artist can do wonders with all the tools out there.

A lot of folks say this until it's their own livelihood or passion that's going away.  Also, a really big issue with this is that many people train their AIs on artists' work without compensating them, which is essentially stealing all of the years they've put into learning their craft.  The laws need to expand to deal with this.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on September 25, 2024, 03:03:26 PMThey may not use AI, but given how sanitized their current work is due to targeting modern audiences it'll be all but indistinguishable from it.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on September 23, 2024, 08:55:04 PMAI art doesn't make anything easier for novitiate RPG designers, it makes it harder, because it's based on an esthetic lie.

AI art is lurid, derivative, and takes the mind in the wrong direction, away from any human intent. It's dastardly ironic that a human-centric game like D&D would be pervaded by machine-vomit.

Keep telling yourself that.

Meanwhile...

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 24, 2024, 09:09:47 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 23, 2024, 08:36:41 PMI'm wondering if this isn't a means of "kicking the ladder down behind you". Chaosium and Kobold Press are large publishers, at least relative to the RPG industry in general. They can afford to hire artists and have the connections to easily do so. Meanwhile, getting decent art for your book is one of the bigger hurdles to the independent or solo RPG writer.

Which is an ironically privileged position to take. But if they didn't have double standards...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2024, 11:43:15 AMI've been saying this for a while in regards to the cries to regulate/ban AI.

Take WotC/Hasbro, they OWN the rights to a lot of art/writing, they can afford to buy the rights to even more, then train a local instance of AI to give them new stuff.

Meanwhile the solo/indie developer can't, and, at 50 bucks a piece for B&W drawings the cost increases very fast.

And if you think that's dire here, wait till you see what the music industry has planned.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2024, 11:43:15 AMIt's all fine and good if you're doing a generic fantasy game, but...

If you're doing a game with UNIQUE monsters? not even a wall of text describing them is as good as a drawing. Take my Sword & Planet game I have about 80-100 UNIQUE monsters, that's 5,000 dollars just for that, thank God I did the Cover "art" myself.

Blah, blah vomit
Blah, blah stealing

Which is exactly why AI won't replace real artists.

Yep, no way to get the correct stuff in a coherent style. I can pick an artist and give him a short description and chances are he'll give me a drawing I'll like, plus he'll draw the other monsters in a coherent style.

But for generic monsters? Yep, AI works just fine.