TheRPGSite

Just what the tin says, what would you add from latter editions, what would you change dramatically, what mechanics from other games would you import?

Do you mean what would you do starting from Champions 1E and go in a different direction?  Or do you mean what would you do from any edition?  I can't say that I remember the differences prior to the 3E/4E jump to say.

4e is good enough. 5eR was a good resurrection of HERO after the Cybergames/Fuzion debacle. I see no need to kitbash anything into earlier editions.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143284Do you mean what would you do starting from Champions 1E and go in a different direction?  Or do you mean what would you do from any edition?  I can't say that I remember the differences prior to the 3E/4E jump to say.

Yes, take 1st Ed and go in a different direction.

I think stealing the conditions from d20 might help codify some things the designers consider "implicit" (stunned, optional bleeding, disabled, impaired... for example). Making them cards and placing them in front of you at the table could help as a reminder.

I feel like END is finicky and hardly comes to impact anyone in actual play. You are keeping track of something that refreshes quickly enough - it's a total wash. Instead, I would use "power points" to represent capability with powers, and use a simple calculation for fatigue (say CON seconds before you make a check or something in combat, con mins for heavy activity, con hours for moderate exertion...). Fatigue would be conditions like 5e D&D (say 5 levels of granularity). With a Heroic setting, I would have that come into play more often so people don't walk out of a combat all sprig like a yoga master. I would also include slower REC rates for PP to emulate less fantastic genres. Then you can include alternate REC methods like ley lines, nexus points, mana zones, mana imbued materials, etc. Obviously, I would ditch END.

I love 6e's approach to ditching derived characteristics. Makes the game LESS fiddly actually. It seems counter-intuitive, but in practice it makes character creation easier.

I would love to see a Fantasy Craft like approach to creating foes and NPCs, where you ditch the char get approach and have a "pick from these menus" to get to the end result. HERO needs some GM tools to make running it easier for the GM.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143288Yes, take 1st Ed and go in a different direction.

Remove Power Frameworks. As they conflict with the internal logic of the rest of the system.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143281Just what the tin says, what would you add from latter editions, what would you change dramatically, what mechanics from other games would you import?

Wow. That's tricky since I haven't played 1E since 83 and don't remember much about it. And editions 3 through 5 sort of blend together in my mind. I like 6E, so these have already been implemented:

Ditch Comeliness
Ditch Elemental Controls
Decouple the figured atts
Add Hero Points (6th has HAPs)

As for dramatic changes?

Roll-over instead of roll-under
Get rid of the Killing Attack scale (use Normal damage scale only)
Ditch END
Make Combat Skill Levels into weapons skills that cost the same as regular skills
Ditch naked skill levels (if 1E had them?)
Switch the att scale so there are no breakpoints with att/5


This is why I play Hero, but I do not GM it.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143614Roll-over instead of roll-under
Get rid of the Killing Attack scale (use Normal damage scale only)

These are the two big changes I'd make as well. I've run the game this way and it was fairly easy to do and worked much better. Attacks were 3d6+OCV >= DCV (which is now permanently 11+old DCV) and having skills be a bonus instead of a roll made difficulty levels trivial to add.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143614Wow. That's tricky since I haven't played 1E since 83 and don't remember much about it. And editions 3 through 5 sort of blend together in my mind. I like 6E, so these have already been implemented:

Ditch Comeliness
Ditch Elemental Controls
Decouple the figured atts
Add Hero Points (6th has HAPs)

As for dramatic changes?

Roll-over instead of roll-under
Get rid of the Killing Attack scale (use Normal damage scale only)
Ditch END
Make Combat Skill Levels into weapons skills that cost the same as regular skills
Ditch naked skill levels (if 1E had them?)
Switch the att scale so there are no breakpoints with att/5


This is why I play Hero, but I do not GM it.

Roll over, yes rolling under is something I don't really like.

How about reducing the number of figured atts?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143621Roll over, yes rolling under is something I don't really like.

How about reducing the number of figured atts?

There are no figured atts in 6E-- one of the reasons why I like it.

Probably not a popular change, but:  Change the calculation for SPD (and/or points, doesn't matter how) so that SPD 3 is the default for normal, and pretty much the base for any character.  

This doesn't substantially change superheroes in any way, but it makes the lower end of the scale much more playable.  The difference between SPD 2, 3, and 4 is too great for the standard range for Fantasy Hero, but SPD 3, 4, 5 in its place works great, giving you some of the same tactical richness that the superhero side already has.  

In my last several years of running Hero, I implemented that house rule simply as every character got +1 SPD, to avoid redoing points for everything.  If built into the base game, you could also leave the stat alone and instead change the Speed Chart to effectively do the same thing.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143614Switch the att scale so there are no breakpoints with att/5
This is why I play Hero, but I do not GM it.

  With the removal of Figured Characteristics, the reasons for not reducing Basic Characteristics down to just the 'divided by 5' versions are largely vestigial--initiative, Con-stunning, resistance to Mental and Presence attacks. There are potential solutions to all of these--count BODY on Mental and Presence attacks, use a straight "x5" rule for Con-stunning, break Initiative out into its own characteristic and thus bring Dex down to 1/pt per level.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143648Probably not a popular change, but:  Change the calculation for SPD (and/or points, doesn't matter how) so that SPD 3 is the default for normal, and pretty much the base for any character.  

This doesn't substantially change superheroes in any way, but it makes the lower end of the scale much more playable.  The difference between SPD 2, 3, and 4 is too great for the standard range for Fantasy Hero, but SPD 3, 4, 5 in its place works great, giving you some of the same tactical richness that the superhero side already has.

I think that the price of SPD should be based on the total points of the character. A 100 pts character acting one more times a turn is significantly less powerful than with a 250 pt character.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143648Probably not a popular change, but:  Change the calculation for SPD (and/or points, doesn't matter how) so that SPD 3 is the default for normal, and pretty much the base for any character.  

This doesn't substantially change superheroes in any way, but it makes the lower end of the scale much more playable.  The difference between SPD 2, 3, and 4 is too great for the standard range for Fantasy Hero, but SPD 3, 4, 5 in its place works great, giving you some of the same tactical richness that the superhero side already has.  

In my last several years of running Hero, I implemented that house rule simply as every character got +1 SPD, to avoid redoing points for everything.  If built into the base game, you could also leave the stat alone and instead change the Speed Chart to effectively do the same thing.

In our 6E heroic games, the natural results are speeds ranging from 3 to 5. Four seems to be the default for most PCs, except for the "fast" characters who buy up speed to 5. Three is for the mooks and brute NPCs.

Is this a 5E problem that 6E solves?

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1143658I think that the price of SPD should be based on the total points of the character. A 100 pts character acting one more times a turn is significantly less powerful than with a 250 pt character.

That's an interesting idea. We have tried limit options, where CVs and SPD are tethered, so if you have high CVs you have a SPD max. And vice versa.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143718In our 6E heroic games, the natural results are speeds ranging from 3 to 5. Four seems to be the default for most PCs, except for the "fast" characters who buy up speed to 5. Three is for the mooks and brute NPCs.

Is this a 5E problem that 6E solves?

Maybe.  The advice prior to 4E was that normals were SPD 2.  Then when FH came out, they encouraged  limits of 2 to 4.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143741Maybe.  The advice prior to 4E was that normals were SPD 2.  Then when FH came out, they encouraged  limits of 2 to 4.

SPD inflation was always one of the biggest problems with Hero System character creation. Players inflate that stat far beyond what it should be for matching the scale of their character. It's bad enough that it throws off the system balance.

Years ago, I did a major re-evaluation of one of my favorite PCs. And I actually shaved off a couple of points of SPD when I realized exactly what it did to the scale.

Now, I am far more conservative with my SPD scores. Taking the "less is more" approach to character building with that stat.

Prior to 5th Edition, the maxima for even the best trained, highest reflex human, was 4.

Even in the supplements of the 4th edition era, the average overspending on SPD averaged out at about 2 too much on every character. Which makes a huge difference in how the characters actually play. And that only counts the writers who were being conservative with their SPDs. People like Sean Fannon and Steve Long popped the cork on SPD and inflated it off the scale in their sourcebooks. Making those books incompatible with the rest of the game line.

We go back to Classic Enemies. Which was scaled reasonably correctly across the board. It provided the baseline of what 250 point characters should be facing and standing up against. It was pretty much balanced. As it should have been.

But the later Enemies books didn't operate from the same baseline. And that just confused the hell out of the people who were actually buying those sourcebooks.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143747Prior to 5th Edition, the maxima for even the best trained, highest reflex human, was 4.

Even in the supplements of the 4th edition era, the average overspending on SPD averaged out at about 2 too much on every character. Which makes a huge difference in how the characters actually play. And that only counts the writers who were being conservative with their SPDs. People like Sean Fannon and Steve Long popped the cork on SPD and inflated it off the scale in their sourcebooks. Making those books incompatible with the rest of the game line.

We go back to Classic Enemies. Which was scaled reasonably correctly across the board. It provided the baseline of what 250 point characters should be facing and standing up against. It was pretty much balanced. As it should have been.

But the later Enemies books didn't operate from the same baseline. And that just confused the hell out of the people who were actually buying those sourcebooks.

   Looking at the Champions in the BBB, they're almost all SPD 5 except for Obsidian (4) and Seeker (6)--and Seeker arguably needed the extra phase to be able to abort to Dodge. :)

SPD 2 makes sense from a simulation sense.  A range of SPD 2 to SPD 4 is lousy in the heroic gaming sense.  It plays poorly.   Though I always found a way to make Endurance work for me, which puts a lid on SPD scores that are too high in a more natural way.  SPD becomes more about opportunity than necessarily an action every phase.

The other option is to not use the Speed Chart at all. Instead, replace it with a modified "initiative" system.  For example, one we used in Fantasy Hero was that the GM rolled a d12.  If the roll was your SPD or less, you got to act.  If you didn't get to act, instead you got a temporary +1 to your SPD, cumulative, that resets once you act.  On a roll of 1, everyone acts, and then do end of round.  It's a way to get around stupid Speed Chart tricks where the higher SPD character knows they can almost get away with murder on specific phases.

These days I can't find anyone willing to tackle the learning curve for the HERO system. In order to overcome that, there need to be pretty drastic changes. Neither HERO 5th nor HERO 6th had significant simplification, and I felt they were pretty pointless (despite having an author's credit in 5th edition). If I want to play the HERO System, I'd use 4th edition as-is.

If I were pitching for a new system, it would be a vastly simplified system that couldn't really be called the same game - or at most called HERO Lite. Aglondir's list was a start.

Quote from: Aglondir;1143614Wow. That's tricky since I haven't played 1E since 83 and don't remember much about it. And editions 3 through 5 sort of blend together in my mind. I like 6E, so these have already been implemented:

Ditch Comeliness
Ditch Elemental Controls
Decouple the figured atts
Add Hero Points (6th has HAPs)

As for dramatic changes?

Roll-over instead of roll-under
Get rid of the Killing Attack scale (use Normal damage scale only)
Ditch END
Make Combat Skill Levels into weapons skills that cost the same as regular skills
Ditch naked skill levels (if 1E had them?)
Switch the att scale so there are no breakpoints with att/5

This is why I play Hero, but I do not GM it.

For drastic simplications:

* I would eliminate SPD as an attribute as well as the SPD chart. In all of my later HERO System games, all characters just had SPD 4, and I never felt like anything was missing. I'd allow a power parallel to Duplication that lets special super-speed characters get double actions.

* As Aglondir notes, Endurance was a huge amount of bookkeeping for little change in the overall progress. I'd replace it with a much simpler Exhausted condition after N rounds of combat.

* I also think the special counting of BODY on standard attack dice was busywork that so rarely mattered but constantly took up time.

* Also combine PD and ED into a single DEF value. (Characters can take special armor "only vs physical" if they really want.)

* Consider switching over to a wound track system instead of variable STUN and BODY. The stats just make scaling worse in the system, and don't make sense given the logarithmic scale.

Quote from: jhkim;1143770...

* As Aglondir notes, Endurance was a huge amount of bookkeeping for little change in the overall progress. I'd replace it with a much simpler Exhausted condition after N rounds of combat.

* Also combine PD and ED into a single DEF value. (Characters can take special armor "only vs physical" if they really want.)

* Consider switching over to a wound track system instead of variable STUN and BODY. The stats just make scaling worse in the system, and don't make sense given the logarithmic scale.

For an extreme house ruled version (barely even Hero anymore) I did all of the above, and simplified the spell listings--not as much as Aglondir's example, but the mechanical notes in the listings were slight.

As an add on set of house rules, it worked very well for the players, but was a lot of work for me.  Mainly because it was an add on.  Built into the core rules, it would work just fine.  

In a ground up rewrite, I would add to that list a significant simplification of the powers.  Maybe not as radical as the "Damage, Defense, Enhance, Move, Sense, Special" (or similar list) that was supposedly once seriously considered, but certainly remove plenty of edge cases.

The funny thing is, if done with a little care, such as system could allow 80% to 90% of the existing rules as more complicated options, in such a way that there wouldn't be much difference in the overall outcomes compared to something like 4E.  Sure, the point totals and active costs would be slightly different, but in play it wouldn't be a dime's worth of difference.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143755The other option is to not use the Speed Chart at all. Instead, replace it with a modified "initiative" system.  For example, one we used in Fantasy Hero was that the GM rolled a d12.  If the roll was your SPD or less, you got to act.  If you didn't get to act, instead you got a temporary +1 to your SPD, cumulative, that resets once you act.  On a roll of 1, everyone acts, and then do end of round.  It's a way to get around stupid Speed Chart tricks where the higher SPD character knows they can almost get away with murder on specific phases.

I've had success with other games with variable activations using a card deck. Each character and NPC puts as many cards as they have activations, and you shuffle the deck and draw to see who's turn it is. Everyone still gets the same activations but no one can predict when anyone will go relative to anyone else.

Also, I seem to have lost my 4th edition book but found my 5th edition one. Were there any major changes between Hero 4th and 5th?

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1143795I've had success with other games with variable activations using a card deck. Each character and NPC puts as many cards as they have activations, and you shuffle the deck and draw to see who's turn it is. Everyone still gets the same activations but no one can predict when anyone will go relative to anyone else.

Also, I seem to have lost my 4th edition book but found my 5th edition one. Were there any major changes between Hero 4th and 5th?

Systematically, not many.  There were a hefty number of minor, almost trivial changes, along with replacing a lot of flavor and advice with dry options.  For any one change, there really isn't anything wrong with it, per se.  You could argue the before or after either way for most of them, and it would be picking at nits.  It wasn't worth buying a whole new set of books and reworking all your campaign material for what little benefit, if any, one gets from the changes.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143804Systematically, not many.  There were a hefty number of minor, almost trivial changes, along with replacing a lot of flavor and advice with dry options.

   I see this complaint and I wonder if people are comparing apples to oranges--comparing the 4E Champions Big Blue Book to the 5E Hero System Rulesbook. A comparison of the two HSR books would be more accurate, and I don't recall much flavor and advice going missing from 4E's version to 5E's. Now, 5E definitely ramped up the detail and crunch options. It also provided a bunch of worked examples in sidebars, though, which was probably one of the things that helped with the resurgence--you got immediate, practical examples of how to use this stuff.

For many Champions fans, the BBB was already going too far with the complexity. That's why 3rd edition is looked at in the light that it is. It was before things started getting crazy complicated.

Quote from: jhkim;1143770These days I can't find anyone willing to tackle the learning curve for the HERO system. In order to overcome that, there need to be pretty drastic changes. Neither HERO 5th nor HERO 6th had significant simplification, and I felt they were pretty pointless (despite having an author's credit in 5th edition).

Congrats! Did any of your changes make it into 6E?

Quote from: jhkim;1143770If I were pitching for a new system, it would be a vastly simplified system that couldn't really be called the same game - or at most called HERO Lite. Aglondir's list was a start.

True. But Hero fans aren't going to accept those radical changes, due to the specter of Fuzion. I think Fuzion was on the right track with some it's changes.

Quote from: jhkim;1143770* I would eliminate SPD as an attribute as well as the SPD chart. In all of my later HERO System games, all characters just had SPD 4, and I never felt like anything was missing. I'd allow a power parallel to Duplication that lets special super-speed characters get double actions.

The Speed Chart was designed to be Sim, but oddly ends up being Nar. It's supposed to be characters with higher speeds are doing more (which makes sense) but it ends up that players with higher speeds get more spotlight time. I like your new power idea-- if Quicksilver wants to have 3x as many actions as everyone else, he can buy a (very expensive) power. Gurps is on the right track here with Enhanced Time Sense.

Quote from: jhkim;1143770* I also think the special counting of BODY on standard attack dice was busywork that so rarely mattered but constantly took up time.

Yes. It never matters. I actually take the "Stun Only" modifier on my attacks just so I don't have to count Body.

Purely for personal amusement I'd taken some ideas originally posted on TBP way way back in the day (the original poster had the handle mmadsen, though I have no idea who or where this poster may be) and run with them to rework HERO into something called the Challenger System, which was designed to try to reproduce the feel of a HERO game while streamlining and simplifying.

Among the radical reworks were:

- Character redesign: Stripped down to 4 Primary Attributes, DEX, STR, INT and PRS, each ranging from 1 to 6 (start at 2, +15 CPs per +1), and a bunch of Derived Attributes: Speed (DEX + INT / 2), Move (DEX + STR / 2), Recovery (STR + PRS / 2), Will (INT + PRS / 2), Endurance ((STR + PRS) x 5), Advantage (SPD + 6), Physical Tolerance (REC + 3), and Mental Tolerance (WILL + 3).  Comeliness became an Edge.

- Training abilities bought at basically four "levels" of broadness: Aptitudes, Skills, Specialties and Familiarities (e.g. the Scientist Aptitude, Computer Programming Skill, Computer Game Design Specialty, FPS Familiarity). Aptitudes were 10 CPs per +1, Skills 2 CPs/+1, Specialties 1 CP/+1, Familiarities a flat 1 CP.  Proficiencies were Skills usable in combat, with Manoeuvres as Specialties or Familiarities.

- Two basic dice mechanics:
1) the Action Roll (or Precision Roll), which took the basic structure of AV (Action Value) + 3d6 vs. DV (Difficulty Value) + 10; your AV equals a Primary Attribute + your Skill Level (generally 1-12) vs. a DV ranging from 0 to 10 or higher.  Equal or beat DV + 10 to succeed at Minor level; every full 2 points improves success by 1 level, from Standard to Major to Critical.
2) the Force Roll; roll a number of d6s equal to the applicable Force score (e.g. STR is Force for unarmed hand-to-hand combat).  Total of roll is Impact, or short-term results; the standard "1 = 0, 2-5 = 1, 6 = 2" distribution determines number of Effect points, i.e. long-term enduring results. In combat, the Impact is stunning, Effect is Wound Points.

- The Advantage (ADV) Attribute is the basis for a character's pool of Combat Action Points, or CAPs; if you had ADV 9, the Warrior Aptitude at 2, and the Proficiency "Fencing" at 4, you have 15 CAPs. These are allocated in each Round to set Initiative, OCV, and DCV.  Initiative equals SPD plus bid CAPs, up to a maximum of 12; actions are counted down from Segment 12 to Segment 1, with attacks or other actions usually costing Initiative 2-6 (superspeed Powers may reduce this cost) and active defenses costing 1.  An attack is OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10.

- Power redesign based around buying all Powers in levels, at a base cost of 5, 10 or 15 CPs per level depending on the Power.  Enhancements and Restrictions are all then applied as basic pluses or minuses; if the final total is positive, you add 20% of base cost per +1, and if negative you reduce Power cost by 20% per -1 -- e.g. a Power with base cost of 10 CPs, with a total of +7 Enhancements and -11 Restrictions, has a final modifier total of -4, or 80% off -- 2 CPs per level.

I wound up grabbing a lot of these idea for my own in-progress generic homebrew, but thought they might have some interest value here.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138... but thought they might have some interest value here.

These are cool ideas! Thanks for sharing.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138Purely for personal amusement I'd taken some ideas originally posted on TBP way way back in the day (the original poster had the handle mmadsen, though I have no idea who or where this poster may be) and run with them to rework HERO into something called the Challenger System, which was designed to try to reproduce the feel of a HERO game while streamlining and simplifying.

Among the radical reworks were:

- Character redesign: Stripped down to 4 Primary Attributes, DEX, STR, INT and PRS, each ranging from 1 to 6 (start at 2, +15 CPs per +1), and a bunch of Derived Attributes: Speed (DEX + INT / 2), Move (DEX + STR / 2), Recovery (STR + PRS / 2), Will (INT + PRS / 2), Endurance ((STR + PRS) x 5), Advantage (SPD + 6), Physical Tolerance (REC + 3), and Mental Tolerance (WILL + 3).  Comeliness became an Edge.

- Training abilities bought at basically four "levels" of broadness: Aptitudes, Skills, Specialties and Familiarities (e.g. the Scientist Aptitude, Computer Programming Skill, Computer Game Design Specialty, FPS Familiarity). Aptitudes were 10 CPs per +1, Skills 2 CPs/+1, Specialties 1 CP/+1, Familiarities a flat 1 CP.  Proficiencies were Skills usable in combat, with Manoeuvres as Specialties or Familiarities.

- Two basic dice mechanics:
1) the Action Roll (or Precision Roll), which took the basic structure of AV (Action Value) + 3d6 vs. DV (Difficulty Value) + 10; your AV equals a Primary Attribute + your Skill Level (generally 1-12) vs. a DV ranging from 0 to 10 or higher.  Equal or beat DV + 10 to succeed at Minor level; every full 2 points improves success by 1 level, from Standard to Major to Critical.
2) the Force Roll; roll a number of d6s equal to the applicable Force score (e.g. STR is Force for unarmed hand-to-hand combat).  Total of roll is Impact, or short-term results; the standard "1 = 0, 2-5 = 1, 6 = 2" distribution determines number of Effect points, i.e. long-term enduring results. In combat, the Impact is stunning, Effect is Wound Points.

- The Advantage (ADV) Attribute is the basis for a character's pool of Combat Action Points, or CAPs; if you had ADV 9, the Warrior Aptitude at 2, and the Proficiency "Fencing" at 4, you have 15 CAPs. These are allocated in each Round to set Initiative, OCV, and DCV.  Initiative equals SPD plus bid CAPs, up to a maximum of 12; actions are counted down from Segment 12 to Segment 1, with attacks or other actions usually costing Initiative 2-6 (superspeed Powers may reduce this cost) and active defenses costing 1.  An attack is OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10.

- Power redesign based around buying all Powers in levels, at a base cost of 5, 10 or 15 CPs per level depending on the Power.  Enhancements and Restrictions are all then applied as basic pluses or minuses; if the final total is positive, you add 20% of base cost per +1, and if negative you reduce Power cost by 20% per -1 -- e.g. a Power with base cost of 10 CPs, with a total of +7 Enhancements and -11 Restrictions, has a final modifier total of -4, or 80% off -- 2 CPs per level.

I wound up grabbing a lot of these idea for my own in-progress generic homebrew, but thought they might have some interest value here.

Well, you, Trechirion and the others have come with some very cool ideas.

Think I'll try to use some of them on my straight 3d6 system (never use more than 3d6). To achieve which I'm toying with a "power" multiplier to apply to the roll so you can replicate from a club to a death star with only 3d6.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138Purely for personal amusement I'd taken some ideas originally posted on TBP way way back in the day (the original poster had the handle mmadsen...

See new thread

Of all the bits in HERO I think Speed could be heavily simplified. It is kind of cool with Supers when you have a range of (usually Speed 5-7) where a speedster with a Speed 7 or 8 can really dance around a slow Brick Speed 4-5. For Heroic level games it is more trouble that it is worth with most characters in the 3-4 range and only the lowest level mooks and unimportant NPCs having a Speed 2.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1143747SPD inflation was always one of the biggest problems with Hero System character creation. Players inflate that stat far beyond what it should be for matching the scale of their character. It's bad enough that it throws off the system balance.

If Endurance is actually tracked it tends to be a natural Speed reducer for Heroic games. We very rarely saw a Speed 5 because the points spent to achieve it took way to many points away from other things, and they didn't have the Endurance to use all of their actions for more than a round or two, usually using the extra action to take a Recovery. In 250pt Supers, 5-6 was the default with speeds over 7 often having the same result of burning through Endurance.

With a well balanced character there is almost no need to track END, but a Speed 5 heroic character is rarely balanced.

In a Heroic level game, the 10-15 points to go from Speed 3 to 4 or the 20-25 points used to go from 4 to 5 buys a lot of combat skill levels. 25 points is +3 with all combat. +5 with melee or ranged combat or +8 with a focused group like swords.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138Purely for personal amusement I'd taken some ideas originally posted on TBP way way back in the day (the original poster had the handle mmadsen, though I have no idea who or where this poster may be) and run with them to rework HERO into something called the Challenger System, which was designed to try to reproduce the feel of a HERO game while streamlining and simplifying.

Among the radical reworks were:

- Character redesign: Stripped down to 4 Primary Attributes, DEX, STR, INT and PRS, each ranging from 1 to 6 (start at 2, +15 CPs per +1), and a bunch of Derived Attributes: Speed (DEX + INT / 2), Move (DEX + STR / 2), Recovery (STR + PRS / 2), Will (INT + PRS / 2), Endurance ((STR + PRS) x 5), Advantage (SPD + 6), Physical Tolerance (REC + 3), and Mental Tolerance (WILL + 3).  Comeliness became an Edge.

- Training abilities bought at basically four "levels" of broadness: Aptitudes, Skills, Specialties and Familiarities (e.g. the Scientist Aptitude, Computer Programming Skill, Computer Game Design Specialty, FPS Familiarity). Aptitudes were 10 CPs per +1, Skills 2 CPs/+1, Specialties 1 CP/+1, Familiarities a flat 1 CP.  Proficiencies were Skills usable in combat, with Manoeuvres as Specialties or Familiarities.

- Two basic dice mechanics:
1) the Action Roll (or Precision Roll), which took the basic structure of AV (Action Value) + 3d6 vs. DV (Difficulty Value) + 10; your AV equals a Primary Attribute + your Skill Level (generally 1-12) vs. a DV ranging from 0 to 10 or higher.  Equal or beat DV + 10 to succeed at Minor level; every full 2 points improves success by 1 level, from Standard to Major to Critical.
2) the Force Roll; roll a number of d6s equal to the applicable Force score (e.g. STR is Force for unarmed hand-to-hand combat).  Total of roll is Impact, or short-term results; the standard "1 = 0, 2-5 = 1, 6 = 2" distribution determines number of Effect points, i.e. long-term enduring results. In combat, the Impact is stunning, Effect is Wound Points.

- The Advantage (ADV) Attribute is the basis for a character's pool of Combat Action Points, or CAPs; if you had ADV 9, the Warrior Aptitude at 2, and the Proficiency "Fencing" at 4, you have 15 CAPs. These are allocated in each Round to set Initiative, OCV, and DCV.  Initiative equals SPD plus bid CAPs, up to a maximum of 12; actions are counted down from Segment 12 to Segment 1, with attacks or other actions usually costing Initiative 2-6 (superspeed Powers may reduce this cost) and active defenses costing 1.  An attack is OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10.

- Power redesign based around buying all Powers in levels, at a base cost of 5, 10 or 15 CPs per level depending on the Power.  Enhancements and Restrictions are all then applied as basic pluses or minuses; if the final total is positive, you add 20% of base cost per +1, and if negative you reduce Power cost by 20% per -1 -- e.g. a Power with base cost of 10 CPs, with a total of +7 Enhancements and -11 Restrictions, has a final modifier total of -4, or 80% off -- 2 CPs per level.

I wound up grabbing a lot of these idea for my own in-progress generic homebrew, but thought they might have some interest value here.

You've got some great ideas.

• Atts: Not fond of the 4 att schema, or END/REC as a concept. But it is the only real miss.
• Two basic mechanic: Good
• ADV countdown: Still thinking on this. It's almost like you're building in CSLs by default, which is fun.
• OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10: Good
• Power redesign: Genius

You should post some more of your system.

Quote from: Aglondir;1144635You've got some great ideas.

Much obliged, although you can probably see in mmadsen's material (and thank you for digging that up by the way) where much of it came from. Never averse to admitting when I'm standing on another's shoulders.

Quote

• Atts: Not fond of the 4 att schema, or END/REC as a concept. But it is the only real miss.

Open to ideas on a more expanded attribute setup, though what I like about the current one is the matrix it sets up of Physical/Mental and Precision/Force, which ties into the rules mechanics of the same name -- STR damage and PRS Attacks are designed to produce the same rolls as in original HERO.

The END/REC economy, though, is so much a core part of the original game that I think it almost has to be left in, or it's not going to feel enough like HERO in play to attract HERO fans. But I admit that's an impression rather than personal experience.
 

Quote

• ADV countdown: Still thinking on this. It's almost like you're building in CSLs by default, which is fun.

I was! Good catch. (I was also heavily inspired by the Combat Pool die allocation in The Riddle of Steel's combat system, as well as the Sequence/Shot countdown of Feng Shui.)

Quote

• Power redesign: Genius

(blush) Many thanks. I never had any problem with HERO's original system in terms of the actual calculations, but like mmadsen, I found the multiply-then-divide process made customizing pre-designed power packages too time-consuming. Fixed percentages of a base cost are much easier to slot in and out as needed.

QuoteYou should post some more of your system.

I will need some time to format the notes for a post, but I very well may. Glad to see it's of interest.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144647I will need some time to format the notes for a post, but I very well may. Glad to see it's of interest.

Do you allow for untrained skills defaulting to att, or are you using "Everyman skills?"

Quote from: Aglondir;1144955Do you allow for untrained skills defaulting to att, or are you using "Everyman skills?"

Combination of both, as you will see below.

The Challenger System started as purely an exercise in personal system design wankery, designed to see if I could capture the feel of the HERO System as it was played rather than sticking slavishly to specific rule details.  The points I wanted to retain were:

• The OCV vs. DCV roll in combat, and the use of 3d6.  This structure was adapted as the basis for all skill rolls.
• The use of multiple d6 rolls for damage/effect.
• The allocation of Skill Levels in combat; this became the the CAP Pool, the Pool of Combat Action Points.
  
• The END economy, the challenge of balancing expenditures with recovery.
• The power creation system.
• The 12-segment Round organization.

The places I wanted to streamline were:

• The attribute setup and structure.
• The variability in skill definition, cost and use.
• The inconsistency in Power rolls and use.
• The excessive number of dice rolled for high Power levels.
• The counterintuitive mathematics of Power customization.
• The proliferation of in-game acronym jargon, as best as possible. (But not to remove it completely; without the OCV and the DCV how would we assuage our OCD?)

Primary Characteristics

Four (4) Characteristics, ranging from 1 to 6 for ordinary humans (7+ for superhumans): Dexterity (DEX), Strength (STR), Intellect (INT), and Presence (PRS).
Each begins at a score of 2; it costs 15 CPs per +1 to a Primary Characteristic.  One Primary Characteristic can be reduced to 1, for -15 CPs.

(To convert from old HERO:

• DEX: Divide HERO DEX by 4 and round down.
  
• STR: Add HERO STR + CON, divide by 8 and round off.
  
• INT: Divide HERO INT by 4 and round down.
• PRS: Add HERO EGO + PRS, divide by 8 and round off.)

Figured Characteristics

These are calculated from the Primary Characteristics.  Some of them can be boosted from their base calculated scores by spending additional CPs, but cannot be reduced below this for a CP bonus.  (Wherever a maximum limit is specified, it refers to ordinary humans in a realistic campaign.)

Speed (SPD) = (DEX + INT) / 2, round up.  10 CPs per +1, to a maximum of 6.
Move (MOV) = (DEX + STR) / 2, round up.  5 CPs per +1, max 6.
Recovery (REC) = (STR + PRS) / 2, round up. 10 CPs per +1, max 6.
Will (WILL) = (INT + PRS) / 2, round up. 10 CPs per +1, max 6.
Endurance (END) = (STR + PRS) x 5.  1 CP per +1, max 60.
Advantage (ADV) = SPD + 6.  Cannot directly raise with CPs.
Physical Tolerance (PT) = REC + 3.  Cannot directly raise.
Mental Tolerance (MT) = WILL + 3.  Cannot directly raise.

Aptitudes, Skills and Specialties

Aptitudes cost 10 CPs per level, and give +1/Level to extremely broad groups of AVs (Action Values).

• Charisma – the art and science of social manipulation, influence and relating.  (PRS)
• Everyman – the skills and knowledge considered "basic" for that PC's culture, time and place; defined by campaign and character origin.  All characters get 1 level in this for free; there is typically almost never any need to buy more. (INT)
• Helmsman – vehicle operation and stunt manoeuvring. (DEX, INT)
• Jack-of-All-Trades – professional skills. (INT)
• Linguist – languages. (INT)  Linguist scores above 6 give no practical benefit, so 6 is the effective max score regardless of INT, even in Cinematic campaigns.
• Marksman – ranged combat. (DEX)
• Martial Artist – unarmed combat. (DEX, STR)
• Olympian – athletic and physical feats. (DEX, STR)
• Power Control – your fine control and precision in the use of your Powers, and your ability to improvise Power Stunts with them.  This Aptitude can only be bought in campaigns using Powers.  Some GMs may rule that Powers using different Aspects may require separate Power Control Aptitudes, and require this Aptitude to be bought more than once.  (No Limiter!)
• Scientist – scientific skills and knowledges. (INT)
• Scholar – history, literature, arts, humanities, classical languages. (INT)
• Warrior – armed melee combat. (DEX, STR)

In Realistic campaigns, Aptitudes cannot be bought higher than the most relevant Primary Characteristic, called its Limiter.  All Aptitudes list their Limiter(s) above; if two Limiters are listed, the Aptitude cannot be bought higher than the lower Characteristic.  Some Aptitudes (e.g. Scientist) may also be disallowed from use in an Action Roll if the character does not have at least one actual Skill in that area--even the most talented amateurs need to have some basic training for that talent to become apparent.

In Cinematic campaigns, Aptitudes can be bought to as high a rank as desired; they become, in effect, "super-skills" that can be used to design characters extremely quickly, and can be used in Action Rolls even if the character has no actual Skills in that area.

Skills cost 2 CPs per level, and give +1/level to specifically defined areas of action and knowledge.  All Skills fall under one of the general Aptitudes, but you do not need to buy levels in a general Aptitude to buy a Skill.  You can buy Skills to any level you can afford.

Specialties cost 1 CP per level, and give +1/level to extremely specific actions and techniques.  All Specialties must be associated with a specific Skill; you cannot buy a Specialty if you don't buy at least 1 level in its underlying Skill first, and cannot buy a Specialty at a rank higher than its underlying Skill.

Familiarities cost a flat 1 CP, and have a number of different applications: (1) it allows you to perform the most basic functions of a Skill without rolling for it, but only in standard routine situations; and (2) in a crisis situation, you can roll AV -2 + 3d6 vs. DV. You cannot buy a Familiarity for an Aptitude.

Combat Proficiencies:  This is the term for any Skill which can be added to a Combat Action Pool, and which also allows you to spend CPs on buying Manoeuvres within the Combat Proficiency.

Manoeuvres:  Counterpart of Specialties

Languages:  Ranked in three levels of proficiency for three grades of language complexity:

Basic – Slow and simple conversation, frequent mistakes.   Simple: 1 CP   Standard: 2 CPs      Exotic: 3 CPs
Fluent – Accented but competent speech, few mistakes.   Simple: 2 CPs   STandard: 3 CPs   Exotic: 5 CPs
Native – Full command, no mistakes, accent control.      Simple: 3 CPs   Standard: 5 CPs      Exotic: 7 CPs

+1 CP to be literate in the language, if literacy is not included as part of your Everyman Aptitude.  (This is bought by alphabet, not language.)
-1 CP  if the language has a familial relation to one you already speak (French to Italian, or Dutch to German).
Your level in the Linguist Aptitude is subtracted from this cost, down to a minimum of 1 CP per Language.

Traits: A mechanic to allow personality traits to influence character actions. New to the system.

Rated 1 to 3 – 1, Minor (a quirk or habit); 2, Major (a significant element of your personality); 3, Critical (essential to your very being).

To Call On a Trait, spend 1 END and add the Trait's rating to your AV or Force for your next roll.
To Conquer a Trait:
1)   Make a WILL Action Roll vs. a DV equal to Trait x 2; or
2)   Spend (Trait) END (taking Trait as penalty to any rolls involved); or
3)   Spend (Trait x 2) END (taking no penalty).

If you attempt a WILL Action Roll to Conquer a Trait and fail, you may still spend END to conquer the Trait anyway, but must pay an extra 2 END for the failed WILL roll.

Example:  A superhero might have the Major Trait "Drive 2 (Protect The Innocent)".  If fighting to defend an innocent bystander, he can spend 1 END to gain a +2 to any relevant roll's AV or Force.  However, if he must abandon innocents in danger to do something utterly necessary, he must either succeed at a WILL Action roll vs. DV 4, spend 2 END to act at a -2 penalty, or spend 4 END to act at no penalty.  If he can't or won't do any of these he can't leave the innocents behind.

Traits do not cost CPs, but you can only take up to your WILL x 3 in total Trait levels.

More to follow....

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138- Power redesign based around buying all Powers in levels, at a base cost of 5, 10 or 15 CPs per level depending on the Power.  Enhancements and Restrictions are all then applied as basic pluses or minuses; if the final total is positive, you add 20% of base cost per +1, and if negative you reduce Power cost by 20% per -1 -- e.g. a Power with base cost of 10 CPs, with a total of +7 Enhancements and -11 Restrictions, has a final modifier total of -4, or 80% off -- 2 CPs per level.

This one stood out to me. It seems to me that it wrecks the logic of HERO advantage/disadvantage. In the HERO System, stacking a disadvantage has a lesser effect than on its own. So, for example, taking a +1/2 disad could reduce cost from 30 points to 20 (saving 33%). But stacking another +1/2 disad only reduces the cost from 20 to 15 (saving 25%). The diminishing returns means that coming up with a lot of disads is discouraged.

But in this variant system, a stacked disad has a *greater* effect. The first restriction reduces cost from 30 to 24 (-20%), the second reduces cost from 24 to 18 (-25%), the third reduces cost from 18 to 12 (-33%), and the fourth reduces cost from 12 to 6 (-50%). I would think that strongly encourages either stacking up to the max (presumably -80%) or taking no disads at all.

Quote from: jhkim;1145055But in this variant system, a stacked disad has a *greater* effect. The first restriction reduces cost from 30 to 24 (-20%), the second reduces cost from 24 to 18 (-25%), the third reduces cost from 18 to 12 (-33%), and the fourth reduces cost from 12 to 6 (-50%). I would think that strongly encourages either stacking up to the max (presumably -80%) or taking no disads at all.

No, the modifiers don't progressively accumulate. All enhancement/restriction modifiers are totalled together first before applying to the base cost.  If you bought 4 levels of a Power with a base 10 CP/level cost, this base cost is 40 CPs.  If you then take 5 levels of enhancements and -3 levels of restrictions, you have a total modifier of +2, 40% +16 CPs -- total 56.  If you decide to add one more Restriction level, your total modifier goes down to +1, 20%, or +8 CPs -- total 48.

Alternately, if you apply the same calculations to the Power's base cost per level first, a total +2 modifier (+5 Enhancements, -3 Restrictions) equals +40% of 10, or 4 CPs -- thus each level costs 14 CPs, and a total of 4 levels costs 56 CPs.  The maximum amount of Restrictions after all modifiers is -4, or -80%, which brings the Power's base cost down to 1, 2, or 3 CPs per level.

Quote from: jhkim;1145055But in this variant system, a stacked disad has a *greater* effect. The first restriction reduces cost from 30 to 24 (-20%), the second reduces cost from 24 to 18 (-25%), the third reduces cost from 18 to 12 (-33%), and the fourth reduces cost from 12 to 6 (-50%). I would think that strongly encourages either stacking up to the max (presumably -80%) or taking no disads at all.

This is offset by the fact that unlike Restrictions, Enhancements have no max; I envision quite a number of Enhancements at the +5, +10 or even +15 level. Restrictions, by contrast, never offer more than -1 to -4 at once, and the -4 levels are quite impairing; taking a lot of Restrictions will make a Power very difficult to use.

This essentially reproduces the effect of the multiplier modifiers in the original system, but makes it easier to calculate and allows specific features to be swapped in and out for a flat arithmetic progression in point cost. (For reference, this means that a total of +1 Advantage in the original HERO System equals +5 levels of Enhancements in Challenger; the fact that Limitations in HERO divide the modified cost after Advantages means you can't calculate this same exact correspondence, but in general you can assume every -1/4 of Limitation in HERO will more or less come out to -1 Restriction level in terms of point cost reduction.)