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Challenge Ratings Suck!

Started by RPGPundit, July 12, 2007, 02:42:22 PM

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James McMurray

#30
July 12, 2007, 05:20:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPunditI disagree. No opponent gave you as much fear or forced you to think as much as a creature with energy drain.

Now, instead, players laugh their asses off at energy-draining undead. I can't recall one instance in all these years of playing 3.0 where a single player has ended up permanently losing a level because of an energy-draining creature. They're simply not a threat anymore.

Ditto with poison. Instead of being something that actually does you damage, it reduces your attributes, slows you down a bit.

The MENACE is taken out of these things, making for a tamer, safer, lamer game.

I'm not saying that you need to have gygaxian "roll a certain number or die" approach to it all; but what you do need to have is something in between, where the danger is real and feels scary. I can't recall a single D&D adventure run with "balance" that has ever felt like a real risk in the least. Instead, its just the cavalcade of Showing Off How Cool and Leet Powers You Are.

Which to me, and many other true blue Gonzo gamers, sucks ass.

RPGPundit

Sounds to me like you're doing it wrong, then.

J Arcane

#31
July 12, 2007, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPunditI'd say BOTH of these are true!

The solution: create a more structured chargen system, where you don't just open up the whole smorgasbord All-You-Can-Eat Broken-Feats-Extravaganza for the players, so that the ones who have obsessively read every last little Feat can take the combo that makes them invulnerable to all damage or whatever, while the newbies end up picking Sucker Feats that make them worthless.

Instead, you create a set of fixed "kits" with Feat-Trees that mean you will end up having a more rigid design process that guarantees that characters will not turn out either too useless or too overpowered.

RPGPundit
IOW, you want to force the players into making their characters the way the designer intended instead of allowing any creativeity on a mechanical level.  

Swine.
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Thanatos02

#32
July 12, 2007, 05:27:35 PM
Quote from: J ArcaneSwine.

Right first time.
God in the Machine.

Here's my website. It's defunct, but there's gaming stuff on it. Much of it's missing. Sorry.
www.laserprosolutions.com/aether

I've got a blog. Do you read other people's blogs? I dunno. You can say hi if you want, though, I don't mind company. It's not all gaming, though; you run the risk of running into my RL shit.
http://www.xanga.com/thanatos02

One Horse Town

#33
July 12, 2007, 05:38:54 PM
I think i can sum up what Pundit is on about with two numbers and one word.

56 Trolls.

beeber

#34
July 12, 2007, 05:40:37 PM
i'd like to see the return of flat XP values per creature.

other than that, i like the new poison stuff.  level drain i'm of mixed feelings.

Sosthenes

#35
July 12, 2007, 05:41:39 PM
Quote from: beeberi'd like to see the return of flat XP values per creature.

There's a conversion table in Unearthed Arcana. With the bestest monster picture ever.
 

jdrakeh

#36
July 12, 2007, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: RPGPunditConventional wisdom says "change it".

The rules, however, do not say this.

QuoteThe implications behind CRs and ELs is that the GM should never ever send the PCs up against something more than they can actually defeat easily.

Patently false. The rules provide for a challenge that PCs have a fair chance to overcome, not the guaranteed 'win' that you claim. Honestly, you're not the only advocate of this fallacy, though you may be the most surprising (to me, anyhow).
 

beeber

#37
July 12, 2007, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: SosthenesThere's a conversion table in Unearthed Arcana. With the bestest monster picture ever.

time to look for a copy, then.  the WotC book not the malhavoc one, yes?

edit:  duh, the monte book is AU, not UA.  looks like my borders has it.  maybe i'll just copy the table i need. . . .

James McMurray

#38
July 12, 2007, 06:07:18 PM
You'll probably want the entire section. Changing to flat XP values for monsters also means changing the levelling tables and the XP costs for magic items and spells with an XP component.

We used it in one game I ran, but it was at epic levels before we started using it so my experience probably isn't very helpful. The only really noticable change that high up was that spells with XP costs no longer had costs that mattered. 5,000xp for a miracle or wish used to be a big amount, but the new value (which I can't remember, sorry) was suddenly just a drop in the bucket of what you earned in an encounter.

arminius

#39
July 12, 2007, 08:21:38 PM
Quote from: mearlsIt's goofy game design, as interesting as if a monster hit a character and forced the player to pay for that night's pizza.
I would consider playing this game.

Also, I would like to hear about the monster that forces the player to remove an article of clothing.

Informative thread, though. I'd taken for granted that what Pundit calls the "conventional wisdom" was indeed what the rules suggest in the DM guidelines.

J Arcane

#40
July 12, 2007, 08:23:55 PM
Quote from: Elliot WilenI would consider playing this game.

Also, I would like to hear about the monster that forces the player to remove an article of clothing.

Informative thread, though. I'd taken for granted that what Pundit calls the "conventional wisdom" was indeed what the rules suggest in the DM guidelines.
Pundit doesn't even have the slightest clue what the "conventional wisdom" is, because he hates 3.x and doesn't play it.  He's full of shit.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven\'s Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

beeber

#41
July 12, 2007, 08:24:29 PM
Quote from: Elliot WilenAlso, I would like to hear about the monster that forces the player to remove an article of clothing.

sounds like that magic expansion, unglued or whatever it was.

or xxxenophile

beeber

#42
July 12, 2007, 08:25:25 PM
Quote from: J ArcanePundit doesn't even have the slightest clue what the "conventional wisdom" is, because he hates 3.x and doesn't play it.  He's full of shit.

but doesn't he love d20?  

i'm confused

J Arcane

#43
July 12, 2007, 08:30:31 PM
Quote from: beeberbut doesn't he love d20?  

i'm confused
Pundit conflates the D20 aftermarket with Wizards/D&D proper because it lets him pretend that True20 is more popular than it really is.  

He doesn't give a shit about what the actual majority of gamers play, despite his claims to the contrary, it's all about marketing his pet houserule set and nothing more.
Bedroom Wall Press - Games that make you feel like a kid again.

Arcana Rising - An Urban Fantasy Roleplaying Game, powered by Hulks and Horrors.
Hulks and Horrors - A Sci-Fi Roleplaying game of Exploration and Dungeon Adventure
Heaven\'s Shadow - A Roleplaying Game of Faith and Assassination

David R

#44
July 12, 2007, 08:34:03 PM
Quote from: Elliot WilenAlso, I would like to hear about the monster that forces the player to remove an article of clothing.

Edited: Poor taste post.  

Regards,
David R
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