Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.

For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.

As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

As a GM I want those same things so I don't have to come up with them. Guess I'll have to make my own...

Never again, I can understand not including a bazillion races and classes in the core book, but come on! Basic downtime shit?

Also, the random  generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.

All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book.   Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.

The random generators take up nearly 100+ pages of the book, this is the same as the 1E DM's guide only expanded tremendously.

We get it, you absolutely and utterly hate Shadowdark and will do everything in your power to stawman the shit out of the most pendantic and pointless nonsense.

Quote from: rgalex on February 09, 2024, 11:44:14 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 08, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
The biggest flaw is the lack of classes.

I know there are some zines that add more classes like witch, witch knights of St I've, and the Sea Raider (Viking). 

Are there any more  classes, like Paladin or such?

I found it odd that those 'Zines you mentioned have a preview that shows off the Witch Knight and Sea Wolf classes.   I don't need to buy the 'Zine to get those.  Click & Save, and now I have two free classes. 

The Sea Wolf looks interesting.

Also, as a side note that's a bit funny.  The Sea Wolf class now has stats for 1-handed axes.  "As dagger, but 1D6 damage".  The reason it's funny was there was a joke that the ShadowDark world just doesn't have hand axes. 

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 11, 2024, 05:08:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.

For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.

As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

As a GM I want those same things so I don't have to come up with them. Guess I'll have to make my own...

Never again, I can understand not including a bazillion races and classes in the core book, but come on! Basic downtime shit?

Also, the random  generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.

All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book.   Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.

The random generators take up nearly 100+ pages of the book, this is the same as the 1E DM's guide only expanded tremendously.

We get it, you absolutely and utterly hate Shadowdark and will do everything in your power to stawman the shit out of the most pendantic and pointless nonsense.

Except those prices AREN'T anywhere except the random generators.

As for me "hating" anything (it's the same "argument" as you're just mad), the random generators where the GM rolls to see what happens to MY PC regardless of what I say it does?

Yes, it seems railroady.

Paid $30 US for an incomplete game, with rules I have no use for either as a player or a GM, you can like it, heck you can even suck her dick IDGAFF. Doesn't mean MY criticism (mildly as it is) isn't valid.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 11, 2024, 05:08:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.

For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.

As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

Also, the random  generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.

All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book.   Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.

The cost of a stew is on Page 137. Goat Stew - 1d4 CP. On the same page, it indicates an Ale is 5 SP for "House Ale", which is mid-quality and comes with a free refill. There is more useful detail in the food + ale tables here than a price sheet from AD&D IMO. The drinks of different quality have effects on your character! I can't find the cost of a room but I figure it's easy enough to estimate on-the-fly in relation to the cost of food and drink options (since the inn's quality determines food/drink quality and variety). The game seems more robust than one would expect on these topics.

The carousing table only takes away control to the extent that it's trying to tell you an amusing story of how you came to acquire the benefits (XP, sometimes new friends, items). It's only possible to encounter the really wild stuff when you're doing stuff like throwing a 2-week bender (in which case, blacking out and waking up in a dangerous situation seems reasonable). The carousing table is the only one I could find that clearly takes away player agency, but you're choosing to carouse in the first place.

I'm not sure how the generators are "railroady". It's normal from the very beginning of the hobby to roll for random encounters. I don't see why it's weird to roll for random encounters in different parts of town or the wilderness. I do the same thing in my games and I will probably get some use out of these tables. I think the tables are the best thing about ShadowDark. They seem interesting and of good quality with lots of entries. Most generators I find elsewhere are too small, really gonzo, or just dull. Also the entries are tailored enough to fit without tons of rerolls - having different d100 tables for different city districts, buildings, terrain types is useful.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 11, 2024, 08:02:01 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on March 11, 2024, 05:08:16 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.

For all the praise people sang over this game it's an incomplete game IMHO.

As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

Also, the random  generators... Dunno, this feels a litle bit railroady to me.

All that these basic items are rolled into the "Carousing" section of the game book.   Common Items are present and the book does a good job in saying the GM can handwave costs.

The cost of a stew is on Page 137. Goat Stew - 1d4 CP. On the same page, it indicates an Ale is 5 SP for "House Ale", which is mid-quality and comes with a free refill. There is more useful detail in the food + ale tables here than a price sheet from AD&D IMO. The drinks of different quality have effects on your character! I can't find the cost of a room but I figure it's easy enough to estimate on-the-fly in relation to the cost of food and drink options (since the inn's quality determines food/drink quality and variety). The game seems more robust than one would expect on these topics.

The carousing table only takes away control to the extent that it's trying to tell you an amusing story of how you came to acquire the benefits (XP, sometimes new friends, items). It's only possible to encounter the really wild stuff when you're doing stuff like throwing a 2-week bender (in which case, blacking out and waking up in a dangerous situation seems reasonable). The carousing table is the only one I could find that clearly takes away player agency, but you're choosing to carouse in the first place.

I'm not sure how the generators are "railroady". It's normal from the very beginning of the hobby to roll for random encounters. I don't see why it's weird to roll for random encounters in different parts of town or the wilderness. I do the same thing in my games and I will probably get some use out of these tables. I think the tables are the best thing about ShadowDark. They seem interesting and of good quality with lots of entries. Most generators I find elsewhere are too small, really gonzo, or just dull. Also the entries are tailored enough to fit without tons of rerolls - having different d100 tables for different city districts, buildings, terrain types is useful.

No, that's not a price list, it's a random table generator that the GM rolls in, such an "amusing story": Barnacle grog. 1 cp, DC 9 Constitution check or blind 1 hour

You think I don't have the book or something?

Now, as for the carousing table:

You're locked in the stocks for 1d4
days and fined 20% of your total
wealth for setting a building on fire

You wake up deep inside the local
ruler's stronghold holding one of
their priceless family heirlooms.
Footsteps approach

Now, not all the results of THAT random table are bad, but what IF my PC gets drunk and decides to go to sleep?

No, sorry, you have to roll on the fucking table to see what your PC did AGAINST your will.

You think it's clever, fun and wish to inflict that on your players? By all means knock your self out

I'm curently a player in a "campaign" of it, I'll be reporting how much "FUN & AMUSING" it is to have your player agency striped away from you.

You have every right to like it, you don't have the right to lie that it's not stealing the player's agency.

I also got ShadowDark. My prognosis; it's thoroughly "meh".
I can't really foresee this getting much long term play at anyone's table, be it modern or OSR.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
No, that's not a price list, it's a random table generator that the GM rolls in, such an "amusing story": Barnacle grog. 1 cp, DC 9 Constitution check or blind 1 hour

It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
Now, not all the results of THAT random table are bad, but what IF my PC gets drunk and decides to go to sleep?
...
I'm currently a player in a "campaign" of it, I'll be reporting how much "FUN & AMUSING" it is to have your player agency striped away from you.

Sure, and that's one outcome. My reading of the percentage loss of total wealth is to discourage gaming the carousing table's rewards by spamming low-level carousing for XP. The game revels in randomness. It's baked in from the character advancement to most of the moment-to-moment gameplay. If that's not to your taste, that's fine. I'm unsure if you'll enjoy a ShadowDark campaign based on what I'm hearing from you, but best of luck to you and the other players in finding some enjoyment in it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
You have every right to like it, you don't have the right to lie that it's not stealing the player's agency.

Emphasis mine. I did not lie about this and was very clear that the carousing table does take agency away and justified it on the basis that players are participating in the carousing to begin with. Loss of some level of agency is fundamental to every carousing table I've seen. That includes Dragonslayer's carousing table. The outcomes are similar - you can wake up with tattoos, fines, jail time, and even burning down a building. If you don't like how central carousing is to ShadowDark and wish it were an optional rule, I get it. Carousing is an excuse to burn your cash so you always need more. Most B/X gold-for-XP systems I've seen are ultimately about inventing justifications for that. That the carousing table also results in outcomes like making new NPC riends and things like that is just a nice bonus and an easy way to tell an amusing story in brief.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
...
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

Again, emphasis mine. I don't think you're lying - mistakenly missing or forgetting the prices I cited are much more likely. It's factually incorrect though to say that the prices for ale and stew are not in the book (and it's a B/X game anyway so if you prefer the formatting of a big price sheet they're a dime-a-dozen online). The game is complete - though it might not be to your taste, and that's fine. If you feel like the carousing table is railroading you, you can ask the GM if you can retheme the spending to suit your character and I'm sure they'll agree. If you're a pious priest, maybe you're spending it giving to the needy, tithing the church, doing stuff like that. I've seen other B/X XP systems based on that kind of premise. None of the other tables I can recall from the book seem to be railroading the player - they're just random encounter tables similar to traditional encounter tables (and what I find most useful from the book).

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
No, that's not a price list, it's a random table generator that the GM rolls in, such an "amusing story": Barnacle grog. 1 cp, DC 9 Constitution check or blind 1 hour

It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
Now, not all the results of THAT random table are bad, but what IF my PC gets drunk and decides to go to sleep?
...
I'm currently a player in a "campaign" of it, I'll be reporting how much "FUN & AMUSING" it is to have your player agency striped away from you.

Sure, and that's one outcome. My reading of the percentage loss of total wealth is to discourage gaming the carousing table's rewards by spamming low-level carousing for XP. The game revels in randomness. It's baked in from the character advancement to most of the moment-to-moment gameplay. If that's not to your taste, that's fine. I'm unsure if you'll enjoy a ShadowDark campaign based on what I'm hearing from you, but best of luck to you and the other players in finding some enjoyment in it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 10:23:46 PM
You have every right to like it, you don't have the right to lie that it's not stealing the player's agency.

Emphasis mine. I did not lie about this and was very clear that the carousing table does take agency away and justified it on the basis that players are participating in the carousing to begin with. Loss of some level of agency is fundamental to every carousing table I've seen. That includes Dragonslayer's carousing table. The outcomes are similar - you can wake up with tattoos, fines, jail time, and even burning down a building. If you don't like how central carousing is to ShadowDark and wish it were an optional rule, I get it. Carousing is an excuse to burn your cash so you always need more. Most B/X gold-for-XP systems I've seen are ultimately about inventing justifications for that. That the carousing table also results in outcomes like making new NPC riends and things like that is just a nice bonus and an easy way to tell an amusing story in brief.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2024, 04:08:24 PM
I imagine the prices list for Ale, food, bed, tackle, etc are also a DLC because it's not in the book.
...
As a player I want to know how much does an Ale cost, how much for a stew or other foods, same thing for hostel and other things done in town.

Again, emphasis mine. I don't think you're lying - mistakenly missing or forgetting the prices I cited are much more likely. It's factually incorrect though to say that the prices for ale and stew are not in the book (and it's a B/X game anyway so if you prefer the formatting of a big price sheet they're a dime-a-dozen online). The game is complete - though it might not be to your taste, and that's fine. If you feel like the carousing table is railroading you, you can ask the GM if you can retheme the spending to suit your character and I'm sure they'll agree. If you're a pious priest, maybe you're spending it giving to the needy, tithing the church, doing stuff like that. I've seen other B/X XP systems based on that kind of premise. None of the other tables I can recall from the book seem to be railroading the player - they're just random encounter tables similar to traditional encounter tables (and what I find most useful from the book).

Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.

Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:09:53 AM

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.

Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.

Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.

Who rolls on the Tavern generator? The GM, who then presents it to you in-game. You say "I'll have an ale" and the barmaid gives you the options from the menu and you buy what you want. Like most games I've played in. If you prefer buying from the sears catalog rather than roleplaying that interaction, go ahead. I've played like that too.

I have no clue how the tavern generator is taking away your agency and I don't think you have a clear idea either. Enjoy your ShadowDark campaign.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 01:35:48 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:09:53 AM

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.

Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.

Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.

Who rolls on the Tavern generator? The GM, who then presents it to you in-game. You say "I'll have an ale" and the barmaid gives you the options from the menu and you buy what you want. Like most games I've played in. If you prefer buying from the sears catalog rather than roleplaying that interaction, go ahead. I've played like that too.

I have no clue how the tavern generator is taking away your agency and I don't think you have a clear idea either. Enjoy your ShadowDark campaign.

More lies?

You know damn well I'm talking about the drink random generator. I'm sure the GM presents it to you with the drawbacks and all...

Stop while you're this much behind.

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 01:35:48 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:09:53 AM

Quote from: Old Aegidius on March 12, 2024, 12:59:42 AM
It's a random generator to see what's on the menu at the inn. It doesn't have to be on a big price list next to the pickaxes to be valid items for the players to purchase. I agree the format isn't an AD&D price list which is why I contrasted it with that.

Who rolls on THAT random generator? The GM, But sure it's not taking away your agency.

Again, you're free to like it, just don't lie about it.

Who rolls on the Tavern generator? The GM, who then presents it to you in-game. You say "I'll have an ale" and the barmaid gives you the options from the menu and you buy what you want. Like most games I've played in. If you prefer buying from the sears catalog rather than roleplaying that interaction, go ahead. I've played like that too.

I have no clue how the tavern generator is taking away your agency and I don't think you have a clear idea either. Enjoy your ShadowDark campaign.

Greetings!

Yeah, Old Aegidius, all of the different random tables in Shadowdark are fantastic! Lots of creativity and fun! Shadowdark is great! Brutal, quick, and simple. Very much OSR, with a dash of the best aspects of 5E. The artwork is evocative, interesting, and inspiring. The writing is simple, direct, and I also like the fact that it is written with effort towards plain language. Shadowdark has a harsh, brutal aesthetic that goes along well with my own Thandor world.

No Woke BS in the game.

No "Superhero" Player Characters

Simple and quick mechanics, stats and profiles. Running the game, encounters, using the system itself, is a joy and a real pleasure. As a Player, but especially as a GM.

Yep, I have been a fan of Shadowdark from the beginning. I backed Kelsey's Shadowdark Kickstarter at the Legendary level, so I have everything. The book, the deluxe book, the magazines, everything. It is a great deal, and I love it. Every dollar spent was a great investment. Every paragraph in the books, the magazines, is designed for VALUE. There is none of the pages and pages of Stupid, meaningless jabbering you find with WOTC books for *years* now. Kelsey edits like a ruthless Viking chick with a chainsaw. *Laughing* The writing can take a bit to get used to, but damn, it is refreshing and such a pleasure. I love it all.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

For those folks that have not bought a copy of Shadowdark, here is a really excellent and thorough review of Shadowdark, by RedMageGM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK