Greetings!
When an invading army has an enemy city surrounded and properly under siege, loading cows into catapults and hurling them high into the air and over the city walls is a tactic designed to spread disease and terror amongst the besieged population.
How fast does disease spread from cows hurled into the city from the besieging army?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I'm hoping to see a response from somebody with RL experiences in both epidemiology and bovine bombardment. Nothing else will do.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2021, 05:03:12 PM
When an invading army has an enemy city surrounded and properly under siege, loading cows into catapults and hurling them high into the air and over the city walls is a tactic designed to spread disease and terror amongst the besieged population.
How fast does disease spread from cows hurled into the city from the besieging army?
I have no expertise in this, just Google search. I was surprised to find that the Black Death was relatively slow - number of infected doubled every 43 days, but the Great Plague of 1665 doubled every 11 days. That would be accelerated under crowded siege conditions, but it would still take a long time to spread - taking months before it made any difference.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201019155926.htm
I've rarely had games that either dealt with long-term sieges or realistic disease. One of the uglier and surprising facts about history is that more soldiers died of disease than from battle for every war up until World War I. But I've never had a PC die of disease.
Quote from: SHARK on April 20, 2021, 05:03:12 PM
Greetings!
When an invading army has an enemy city surrounded and properly under siege, loading cows into catapults and hurling them high into the air and over the city walls is a tactic designed to spread disease and terror amongst the besieged population.
How fast does disease spread from cows hurled into the city from the besieging army?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Not just cows. Any corpse would make a useful disease vector if you don't have any way to dispose of it. Even if there's no plague involved, a rotting corpse is a haven for all sorts of nastiness.
Find their water supply and throw the cows there.
Get a few hundred rats and free them in the city.
Get a few hundreds/thousands poisonus critters and free them in the city.
If the outside army knows of lime (caustic soda?) it also makes for a nasty projectile and poison.
All I wanna know is how much damage does a bovine projectile make when hurled with a catapult. 4d8 OK? Or is that too much? How much damage does a high velocity cow body make on impact? ;D
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 20, 2021, 08:56:01 PM
All I wanna know is how much damage does a bovine projectile make when hurled with a catapult. 4d8 OK? Or is that too much? How much damage does a high velocity cow body make on impact? ;D
Lets see, an average cow weighs around 1,200 lbs
A large catapult can lob a rock about 176.37lbs (80 kg) in weight.
Trebuchets had about the same capacity for projectiles.
A large catapult does 6d6 damage Source: https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy (https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy)
Assuming the same projectile this would mean an even bigger catapult able to throw said 1,200 lbs (544.3108 kilos)
So a cow is about 6.803875 times the weight of the rock.
IF we increase the damage by the same amount we end up with about 42d6 in damage.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 10:05:48 PM
[Lets see, an average cow weighs around 1,200 lbs
A large catapult can lob a rock about 176.37lbs (80 kg) in weight.
Trebuchets had about the same capacity for projectiles.
A large catapult does 6d6 damage Source: https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy (https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy)
Assuming the same projectile this would mean an even bigger catapult able to throw said 1,200 lbs (544.3108 kilos)
So a cow is about 6.803875 times the weight of the rock.
IF we increase the damage by the same amount we end up with about 42d6 in damage.
You forgot to assume a spherical cow...
In D&D at least, hit dice tends to increase with the linear dimension. Twice as tall or long, twice as many hit dice. But that's eight times as massive, so HD squares with the cube root of mass. If damage stays roughly proportional across sizes, then your 176.37 lb projectile scaled up to 1,200 lb should do about x1.895 as much damage ((1200/176.37)^(1/3)), or about 11d6.
Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 10:05:48 PM
[Lets see, an average cow weighs around 1,200 lbs
A large catapult can lob a rock about 176.37lbs (80 kg) in weight.
Trebuchets had about the same capacity for projectiles.
A large catapult does 6d6 damage Source: https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy (https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy)
Assuming the same projectile this would mean an even bigger catapult able to throw said 1,200 lbs (544.3108 kilos)
So a cow is about 6.803875 times the weight of the rock.
IF we increase the damage by the same amount we end up with about 42d6 in damage.
You forgot to assume a spherical cow...
In D&D at least, hit dice tends to increase with the linear dimension. Twice as tall or long, twice as many hit dice. But that's eight times as massive, so HD squares with the cube root of mass. If damage stays roughly proportional across sizes, then your 176.37 lb projectile scaled up to 1,200 lb should do about x1.895 as much damage ((1200/176.37)^(1/3)), or about 11d6.
Yeah, well... I was trying for realism :P
What about splash damage from a ballistic bovine impact? That cow ain't gonna stay in one piece when it hits.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2021, 02:01:12 AM
What about splash damage from a ballistic bovine impact? That cow ain't gonna stay in one piece when it hits.
Oh no, I'm not doing the math for that, someone else is going to have to help you :P
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 20, 2021, 07:41:14 PM
Not just cows. Any corpse would make a useful disease vector if you don't have any way to dispose of it.
Alexander the Great did something similar, IIRC.
And Roman soldiers, to spread disease among the enemy, threw rotting animal carcasses in the watercourses, in order to pollute the water in the city under siege.
Death and destruction is spread much faster by hurling halflings over the wall.
Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 10:05:48 PM
[Lets see, an average cow weighs around 1,200 lbs
A large catapult can lob a rock about 176.37lbs (80 kg) in weight.
Trebuchets had about the same capacity for projectiles.
A large catapult does 6d6 damage Source: https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy (https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy)
Assuming the same projectile this would mean an even bigger catapult able to throw said 1,200 lbs (544.3108 kilos)
So a cow is about 6.803875 times the weight of the rock.
IF we increase the damage by the same amount we end up with about 42d6 in damage.
You forgot to assume a spherical cow...
In D&D at least, hit dice tends to increase with the linear dimension. Twice as tall or long, twice as many hit dice. But that's eight times as massive, so HD squares with the cube root of mass. If damage stays roughly proportional across sizes, then your 176.37 lb projectile scaled up to 1,200 lb should do about x1.895 as much damage ((1200/176.37)^(1/3)), or about 11d6.
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2021, 02:01:12 AM
What about splash damage from a ballistic bovine impact? That cow ain't gonna stay in one piece when it hits.
I'm guessing 1/5th of the full cow damage, at most, since those pieces are gonna be much smaller. So, 2d6-ish (going with 11d6 base damage), Reflex save for half?
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
Quote from: Zalman on April 21, 2021, 09:33:04 AM
Death and destruction is spread much faster by hurling halflings over the wall.
Kender work even better. Especially if they survive impact.
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 21, 2021, 11:27:39 AM
Quote from: Zalman on April 21, 2021, 09:33:04 AM
Death and destruction is spread much faster by hurling halflings over the wall.
Kender work even better. Especially if they survive impact.
Why don't we throw in Tinker Gnomes while we're at it? ;)
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
Quote from: Mishihari on April 21, 2021, 11:27:39 AM
Quote from: Zalman on April 21, 2021, 09:33:04 AM
Death and destruction is spread much faster by hurling halflings over the wall.
Kender work even better. Especially if they survive impact.
Why don't we throw in Tinker Gnomes while we're at it? ;)
Don't know how you could justify this but, if you feed the cows with cow meat (especially the brain) then you can spread mad cow disease in the city residents if they decide to eat the cow meat.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:17:27 PM
Get a few hundred rats and free them in the city.
Feeding the enemy would be counter productive to a siege.
Quote from: DocJones on April 21, 2021, 12:15:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 08:17:27 PM
Get a few hundred rats and free them in the city.
Feeding the enemy would be counter productive to a siege.
Rats eat your grain, and also carry disease. You of course do this at the start of the siege.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
I hope you humanely slaughter the cow projectiles in your haversack. PETA is CR 20, and you can't handle that ECL.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do.
Are you kidding? If we can't have fully automatic, belt-fed cowtapults, I don't wanna live.
Call it Smashburger.
Given that shitting yourself to death is Top-5 Countdown List of reasons people die in both sides of a siege and just like doing pre-modern army things in general do you guys track the casualties for the guys on the outside as well or does that not happen
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
I hope you humanely slaughter the cow projectiles in your haversack. PETA is CR 20, and you can't handle that ECL.
It all depends, if you want stealth death from above by cowtapult then yes.
On the other hand, if you want your enemies to run in terror, then you launch the cows alive, let their moooos be the last thing your enemies will ever hear.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 12:50:00 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
I hope you humanely slaughter the cow projectiles in your haversack. PETA is CR 20, and you can't handle that ECL.
It all depends, if you want stealth death from above by cowtapult then yes.
On the other hand, if you want your enemies to run in terror, then you launch the cows alive, let their moooos be the last thing your enemies will ever hear.
Isn't "It's Raining Moos" a song by the Cowweather Girls?
Three words:
"Cows With Guns".
Two Words:
"Bollywood Cows"
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
I hope you humanely slaughter the cow projectiles in your haversack. PETA is CR 20, and you can't handle that ECL.
They will be humanely slaughtered.
On impact.
I'll feed them a bunch of drugged hay, so they'll be high as a kite, before they fly high as a kite.
Probably easier to load them that way. Struggle less.
Quote from: Thornhammer on April 21, 2021, 12:40:14 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do.
Are you kidding? If we can't have fully automatic, belt-fed cowtapults, I don't wanna live.
Call it Smashburger.
We'll have to get some dwarven engineers to work on that. I imagine it'll involve using siege towers to load up the cows, on top of each other, then release some mechanism that feeds them into the engine.
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 12:56:14 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 12:50:00 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 21, 2021, 10:05:35 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Better hope your next DM doesn't track ammo. Or encumbrance. Or make sure your character has a Heward's Handy Stockyard.
I can live with that. Just a handful of cow projectiles per session will do. I'll put everything into siege engine crafting skills and sell siege engines to local warlords to make money to restock my ammo. My company brand will be a flying cow, embossed on every siege weapon I sell.
I hope you humanely slaughter the cow projectiles in your haversack. PETA is CR 20, and you can't handle that ECL.
It all depends, if you want stealth death from above by cowtapult then yes.
On the other hand, if you want your enemies to run in terror, then you launch the cows alive, let their moooos be the last thing your enemies will ever hear.
Isn't "It's Raining Moos" a song by the Cowweather Girls?
If it isn't it should be.
Maybe we can side step the building of a huge catapult? Why not use magic?
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 01:42:52 PM
We'll have to get some dwarven engineers to work on that. I imagine it'll involve using siege towers to load up the cows, on top of each other, then release some mechanism that feeds them into the engine.
Which sounds like a job for tinker gnomes! Which means it's Dragonlance. So the cows are probably female minotaurs.
This doesn't seem to be heading in a good direction.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
Maybe we can side step the building of a huge catapult? Why not use magic?
Greetings!
Oh my god! Geeky, this is fucking awesome! *laughing* I love it! I'm adding it to my campaign for certain!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I am oddly reminded of the Exalted combo entitled 'Cascade of Crushing Yeddim'.
Essentially, there was one charm that amped your strength enough to lift and throw something oversized (in this case, a yeddim -- a large pack animal akin to a Star Wars bantha). There was also a charm that, when you threw a weapon, could cause it to multiply into numerous copies, turning a single throw into an area attack.
Yeah. You see where this is going. You throw Mr. Yeddim and he magically multiplies into many, many yeddim.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 21, 2021, 03:37:11 PM
Yeah. You see where this is going. You throw Mr. Yeddim and he magically multiplies into many, many yeddim.
Remember to cover the eyes of any Exalted under 18.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 21, 2021, 09:47:56 AM
Quote from: Pat on April 20, 2021, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 20, 2021, 10:05:48 PM
[Lets see, an average cow weighs around 1,200 lbs
A large catapult can lob a rock about 176.37lbs (80 kg) in weight.
Trebuchets had about the same capacity for projectiles.
A large catapult does 6d6 damage Source: https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy (https://triplecrit.fandom.com/wiki/Catapult,_Heavy)
Assuming the same projectile this would mean an even bigger catapult able to throw said 1,200 lbs (544.3108 kilos)
So a cow is about 6.803875 times the weight of the rock.
IF we increase the damage by the same amount we end up with about 42d6 in damage.
You forgot to assume a spherical cow...
In D&D at least, hit dice tends to increase with the linear dimension. Twice as tall or long, twice as many hit dice. But that's eight times as massive, so HD squares with the cube root of mass. If damage stays roughly proportional across sizes, then your 176.37 lb projectile scaled up to 1,200 lb should do about x1.895 as much damage ((1200/176.37)^(1/3)), or about 11d6.
So...still higher than a Fireball then? I guess my next character is gonna have to be a Siege Engineer with weapon specialization in Bovine Trebuchets.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 21, 2021, 02:01:12 AM
What about splash damage from a ballistic bovine impact? That cow ain't gonna stay in one piece when it hits.
I'm guessing 1/5th of the full cow damage, at most, since those pieces are gonna be much smaller. So, 2d6-ish (going with 11d6 base damage), Reflex save for half?
What if you coat them with pitch and light 'em first? extra 1 or 2d6? and then this...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 12:50:00 PM
It all depends, if you want stealth death from above by cowtapult then yes.
On the other hand, if you want your enemies to run in terror, then you launch the cows alive, let their moooos be the last thing your enemies will ever hear.
The more strident moos from flaming cows should generate even bigger morale penalties, right?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
Maybe we can side step the building of a huge catapult? Why not use magic?
Dammit Geeky, rules haven't even been finalized yet and 'martials can't have nice things' because magic... ;)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 21, 2021, 03:37:11 PM
I am oddly reminded of the Exalted combo entitled 'Cascade of Crushing Yeddim'.
Essentially, there was one charm that amped your strength enough to lift and throw something oversized (in this case, a yeddim -- a large pack animal akin to a Star Wars bantha). There was also a charm that, when you threw a weapon, could cause it to multiply into numerous copies, turning a single throw into an area attack.
Yeah. You see where this is going. You throw Mr. Yeddim and he magically multiplies into many, many yeddim.
If the magical multiplying device can be airdropped, we will refer to it as a JCOW, right?
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 21, 2021, 04:03:28 PM
What if you coat them with pitch and light 'em first? extra 1 or 2d6? and then this...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 12:50:00 PM
It all depends, if you want stealth death from above by cowtapult then yes.
On the other hand, if you want your enemies to run in terror, then you launch the cows alive, let their moooos be the last thing your enemies will ever hear.
The more strident moos from flaming cows should generate even bigger morale penalties, right?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
Maybe we can side step the building of a huge catapult? Why not use magic?
Dammit Geeky, rules haven't even been finalized yet and 'martials can't have nice things' because magic... ;)
Wait till you see my improved Shark's Raining Critters spell 8)
Quote from: moonsweeper on April 21, 2021, 04:03:28 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 21, 2021, 03:37:11 PM
I am oddly reminded of the Exalted combo entitled 'Cascade of Crushing Yeddim'.
Essentially, there was one charm that amped your strength enough to lift and throw something oversized (in this case, a yeddim -- a large pack animal akin to a Star Wars bantha). There was also a charm that, when you threw a weapon, could cause it to multiply into numerous copies, turning a single throw into an area attack.
Yeah. You see where this is going. You throw Mr. Yeddim and he magically multiplies into many, many yeddim.
If the magical multiplying device can be airdropped, we will refer to it as a JCOW, right?
I like how your mind works, not sure what that says about you or me tho
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
Maybe we can side step the building of a huge catapult? Why not use magic?
Or just play the 3e Hulking Hurler build.
Quote from: HappyDaze on April 21, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 21, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
Maybe we can side step the building of a huge catapult? Why not use magic?
Or just play the 3e Hulking Hurler build.
Well if that's an option...
Are sieges really a thing in most editions of D&D?
The mechanics of D&D are that high-level characters and threats are a thing, and that once either a monster or a moderately-leveled adventuring party gets on the other side of the wall and starts burning and murdering civilians, your actual defending army is not going to be able to respond effectively. D&D puts vastly increased power at a point. And with the magical tools of Levitate and Invisibility, which all but the lowest-level wizards can have access to, you can pretty easily air-drop something much nastier than a cow into a city.
Quote from: robertliguori on April 21, 2021, 06:02:00 PM
Are sieges really a thing in most editions of D&D?
The mechanics of D&D are that high-level characters and threats are a thing, and that once either a monster or a moderately-leveled adventuring party gets on the other side of the wall and starts burning and murdering civilians, your actual defending army is not going to be able to respond effectively. D&D puts vastly increased power at a point. And with the magical tools of Levitate and Invisibility, which all but the lowest-level wizards can have access to, you can pretty easily air-drop something much nastier than a cow into a city.
In the campaign I'm playing in, we already had two sieges, one with us as the defenders and another where we come to the rescue of the defenders.
It was mostly magic and regular army (arrows, lances, etc.) but it all depends on the type of campaign you're playing no?
You could just play a low fantasy/high adventure campaign for instance, where magic is less common/more risky for the user.
But, airdroping cows is way funnier than say gelatinous cubes.
When i was once in France with some Friends, we where doing some sightseeing and came across a small castle which we took a tour around. The guid was telling us that the castle was once besieged and the Attackers poisoned the well with carcasses. The Defenders hold out around a month, over the month everyone inside the Castle shat themself to death. After the Attackers finaly broke into the Castle the stench was so overhwelming the Attackers decided to leave and never come back.