So I'm going to indulge in a bit of heresy.  I know one of the hallmarks of C&C has been its simplicity and streamlined-ness; and I love it for that (and a host of other things).  That said, I know a lot of people have been turned-off by that same lack of "crunch."  And we have to be honest: it's easy for two characters of the same class and level (especially rogues) to look almost identical.

So in the interest of "spicing things up", I'd like to present the following, all based on materials published by TLG:

1. Attribute Stat Increases (ASI's)
First introduced in 3.0, a character gains a +1 to one attribute score every 4 levels (4, 8, 12, 16, 20).  This eventually was increased to +2 to one stat or +1 to two in 5e; but I feel like that's a bit much.  A character would get a total of 5 of these, and I doubt it would be game-breaking.

2. Feats
Don't throw anything.. hear me out.  I know 3.x feats got completely out of control.  Heck, the fighter class was nothing But feats (until Pathfinder added class features - which I liked).  But I think some judicious use of them could provide some great customization, as long as it's limited.  And TLG included them ("advantages") as an option in the CKG, so they can't be All bad.

Using the lists in the CKG, I would like to propose the following:
a.  Since humans get 3 primes and demihumans only get 2, at L1 all demihumans get 1 free feat from the list of "heritage" feats
b.  Every 4th level, as in 5e, instead of an ASI, a player can take one feat from an appropriate list in the CKG.
Thus at most, a character would have 6 feats (one from heritage), if s/he takes no skill increases or ASI's.  No complex builds or feat-chains.

3.  Skills
Again, I know skills are anathema to most C&C die-hard.  And yes, they are completely unnecessary given how the Siege engine works.  But TLG released an option for adapting 5e-isms into C&C in their Players' Guide to Aihdre 5e that is worth considering.  Based on class, each character gets a number of 5e-style skills at L1: rogues get 4, bards and rangers get 3, everyone else gets 2.  These skills give a +2 bonus on Siege rolls that involve said skills, on top of the ability bonus and prime.  But they do Not allow adding ones level as class abilities do.  This is a way that a character can have some enhanced ability in something not included in their class abilities.  So a fighter could be skilled in Climb, but not be able to add his/her full level.

The optional rule allows a +1 increase to all skills at L5, 9, 13 and 17.  I would actually put this into the mix with the ASI's and feats.  So in lieu of an ASI or feat, a player could select a new skill (with a +2 bonus) or increase 2 existing skills by +1.  Again, I don't think it would be game-breaking or overly complex, as 5e skills are very much streamlined.

Any thoughts?

Gratzi!

I'm struggling with skills in my 5E game, and was looking at C&C to be my inspiration. What I like is that C&C has a list of stuff each class can do, and rather than have a skill list I'm inclined to lean on the "can do" list instead. If it's on your class sheet you get to do it better than if it isn't, but anyone can try any thing.

I was thinking that 12/18 would be replaced by Advantage/Disadvantage, however.
Option #1 - if it's a "can do" it's a standard roll, if not it's at Disadvantage.
Option #2 - if it a "can do" it's at advantage, if not it's a standard roll.

Option #1 seems more "gritty" while #2 is more "cinematic" and I don't know which I like best. In both cases I would assume a simple target number scale:
5 = simple
10 = average
15 = hard
20 = really hard
25 = absurd

Something like that. (This is off the top of my head. Both 5E and C&C probably have scales for me to peek at to get better numbers.)

Quote from: finarvyn on January 04, 2024, 04:39:23 PM
I'm struggling with skills in my 5E game, and was looking at C&C to be my inspiration. What I like is that C&C has a list of stuff each class can do, and rather than have a skill list I'm inclined to lean on the "can do" list instead. If it's on your class sheet you get to do it better than if it isn't, but anyone can try any thing.

I was thinking that 12/18 would be replaced by Advantage/Disadvantage, however.
Option #1 - if it's a "can do" it's a standard roll, if not it's at Disadvantage.
Option #2 - if it a "can do" it's at advantage, if not it's a standard roll.

Option #1 seems more "gritty" while #2 is more "cinematic" and I don't know which I like best. In both cases I would assume a simple target number scale:
5 = simple
10 = average
15 = hard
20 = really hard
25 = absurd

Something like that. (This is off the top of my head. Both 5E and C&C probably have scales for me to peek at to get better numbers.)

Since class abilities already let you add your entire level to a Siege roll, my thought was that "skills" would be things that you Want to be good at, but don't rise to the level of class abilities.  It's in keeping with TLG's admonitions in the Player's Guide to Aihdre.  So a character could be good at something that would typically be a rogue ability, but would never be as good as a rogue.  So you would add your stat bonus, skill bonus and roll, but Not your level.

But adding one's level is a C&C (and PF2) thing; so for 5e, what you have isn't bad.  But everything in 5e is supposed to be driven by the proficiency bonus so ?

I honestly would not want to use any of these things with C&C if they were presented as options at a table (and skills and advantages are already in the CKG, yes). The attraction to C&C that I feel is because these things are not in the core game, and I don't want to have to play a game that include any of them.

But table wishes vary, and I hope that yours will enjoy your game! Best of luck.

Quote from: Dropbear on January 10, 2024, 07:46:47 AM
I honestly would not want to use any of these things with C&C if they were presented as options at a table (and skills and advantages are already in the CKG, yes). The attraction to C&C that I feel is because these things are not in the core game, and I don't want to have to play a game that include any of them.

But table wishes vary, and I hope that yours will enjoy your game! Best of luck.

Understood.  But the beauty of C&C is how it's possible to add on what you wish and have it Not break the game.  I'm perfectly fine with BtB C&C (with some Siege tweaks and the 5e magic system).  But I know a lot of 3e/5e zealots can't fathom a game without some sort of feats and skills.  For those who want a Little more crunch, I propose what I did above.

C&C truly is (or can be) the Rosetta Stone of D&D.

For C&C skills are already set up and it would be changing the siege engine making things more difficult than it needs to be.

For feats, you would be giving more powers to the players, what are you doing to make the monsters stronger to compensate?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 10, 2024, 11:33:37 AM
For C&C skills are already set up and it would be changing the siege engine making things more difficult than it needs to be.

For feats, you would be giving more powers to the players, what are you doing to make the monsters stronger to compensate?

BtB, C&C does Not have skills.  That was one point of the primes system and adding one's level to class abilities.

What I propose is not "changing the Siege engine."  As I mentioned, TLG has actually published a rudimentary skill model in the Player's Guide to Aihdre 5e.  It's meant to allow a very small number of skills to add to a character's profile.   As written, it's a mere +2 bonus.  And it's a way for a character to gain some small ability in an area that might be otherwise totally off-limits.

As for feats/"advantages", I doubt that TLG would make such a suggestion in the CKG if it would unbalance the game.

Quote from: paladinn on January 10, 2024, 11:39:20 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 10, 2024, 11:33:37 AM
For C&C skills are already set up and it would be changing the siege engine making things more difficult than it needs to be.

For feats, you would be giving more powers to the players, what are you doing to make the monsters stronger to compensate?

BtB, C&C does Not have skills.  That was one point of the primes system and adding one's level to class abilities.

What I propose is not "changing the Siege engine."  As I mentioned, TLG has actually published a rudimentary skill model in the Player's Guide to Aihdre 5e.  It's meant to allow a very small number of skills to add to a character's profile.   As written, it's a mere +2 bonus.  And it's a way for a character to gain some small ability in an area that might be otherwise totally off-limits.

As for feats/"advantages", I doubt that TLG would make such a suggestion in the CKG if it would unbalance the game.

the seige engine has skills already set up, you use primary, secondary and level when doing your skill rolls.  what you want to do is add in an additional modifier for more bonuses.  The system is fine as is, but hey your game do what you want.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 10, 2024, 11:51:58 AM

Quote from: paladinn on January 10, 2024, 11:39:20 AM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 10, 2024, 11:33:37 AM
For C&C skills are already set up and it would be changing the siege engine making things more difficult than it needs to be.

For feats, you would be giving more powers to the players, what are you doing to make the monsters stronger to compensate?

BtB, C&C does Not have skills.  That was one point of the primes system and adding one's level to class abilities.

What I propose is not "changing the Siege engine."  As I mentioned, TLG has actually published a rudimentary skill model in the Player's Guide to Aihdre 5e.  It's meant to allow a very small number of skills to add to a character's profile.   As written, it's a mere +2 bonus.  And it's a way for a character to gain some small ability in an area that might be otherwise totally off-limits.

As for feats/"advantages", I doubt that TLG would make such a suggestion in the CKG if it would unbalance the game.

the seige engine has skills already set up, you use primary, secondary and level when doing your skill rolls.  what you want to do is add in an additional modifier for more bonuses.  The system is fine as is, but hey your game do what you want.

Actually the skill model I'm proposing would allow a skill bonus if you Can't add your level.  If you have a stealthy fighter, you could take Hide or Move silently as a skill.  Your ability would never match a rogue, but it would be something. 

And the primary and secondary are the primes system. 

Most everything I've suggested is based on what TLG has published.  BtB C&C is fine; it's just an option for people who want a bit more.

Well I believe the 'sneaky' fight idea comes from primary vs secondary attributes.  Though a fighter is not going to add level to the check, if the Dex is primary than the base difficulty is 12 vs 18 for a secondary.  Have you tried the Primary, Secondary, Tertiary house rules from the CKG.  How did those work?
Also, how will the feats you want to add differentiate from the advantages listed in the CKG?

Quote from: FrankDuh on January 10, 2024, 06:30:56 PM
Well I believe the 'sneaky' fight idea comes from primary vs secondary attributes.  Though a fighter is not going to add level to the check, if the Dex is primary than the base difficulty is 12 vs 18 for a secondary.  Have you tried the Primary, Secondary, Tertiary house rules from the CKG.  How did those work?
Also, how will the feats you want to add differentiate from the advantages listed in the CKG?

I've tweaked Siege a little.. There's a flat target # of 15, and primes add +3 to rolls.  So for primary and secondary it's +3/+0.  I haven't played with tertiary (yet).

You're right that primes do a lot to individualize characters; that was the point.  Skills are something I'm going to allow to give just a bit of a boost in an ability that wouldn't be otherwise available.  If you have a mounted fighter and you don't want to go full knight (or even class+ knight), you can be a little better at it.

The feats I've envisioned are pretty much identical to CKG advantages; definitely not as powerful as 5e feats..  I'm proposing to give Fewer of them.  Every 4th level you can choose a new feat, a new skill, improving 2 skills, or get a +1 to an ability score.  Decisions, decisions.

Quote from: paladinn on January 10, 2024, 06:53:13 PM
I've tweaked Siege a little.. There's a flat target # of 15, and primes add +3 to rolls.  So for primary and secondary it's +3/+0.  I haven't played with tertiary (yet).

You're right that primes do a lot to individualize characters; that was the point.  Skills are something I'm going to allow to give just a bit of a boost in an ability that wouldn't be otherwise available.  If you have a mounted fighter and you don't want to go full knight (or even class+ knight), you can be a little better at it.

The feats I've envisioned are pretty much identical to CKG advantages; definitely not as powerful as 5e feats..  I'm proposing to give Fewer of them.  Every 4th level you can choose a new feat, a new skill, improving 2 skills, or get a +1 to an ability score.  Decisions, decisions.

Now, this is just me, but I feel that C&C (and D&D) is not a great concept for skills since the class represents what you know. 
You want to know how to also be a thief?  Multi-class.
Just want to be a little sneaky?  C&C's class & a half option with the supporting glass level adding half (round down) class to the rolls.

You may look at feats just adding class abilities to the original class to give it the flavor of the other one.  Low-Fantasy Gaming is a d20 version that doesn't have multi-classing but a unique feature every 3rd level where you can add another class ability to yours.

Or, possibly throw in the secondary skills from the CKG.  Something like Acrobatics or Forester may have knowledge on sneaking or climbing (all be it as a lower bonus to the roll).


side note: I think d20 (modern in particular) would have been great if it was just a single level up (like Human; d6 HP per level) where you use skills and feats to create the class you are going to play.