Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2023, 08:48:22 AM
I'll add that while you can get free character sheets off their website, if you're really wanting that 1e vibe, they also sell those pads of goldenrod sheets tailored to the different character classes.  They're useful because your class abilities are already printed on the sheet.

This should be standard for all class/level based games...

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2023, 11:04:39 AM
Of note:
https://trolllord.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Converting_5th_Ed_to_CC.pdf

C&C will grab a bit of market share based on the current re-alignment currently going down in the hobby.

But unless they do a 5eish version of C&C they will never be a big player outside of the OSR.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2023, 03:28:38 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2023, 08:48:22 AM
I'll add that while you can get free character sheets off their website, if you're really wanting that 1e vibe, they also sell those pads of goldenrod sheets tailored to the different character classes.  They're useful because your class abilities are already printed on the sheet.

This should be standard for all class/level based games...

Yeah, it's one thing I like about it. It really plays to the strengths of having class and level. Once you start adding in feats and skills, and the ability to customize your character like that, you might as well just add a few more for class abilities and take class out entirely.

Quote

C&C will grab a bit of market share based on the current re-alignment currently going down in the hobby.

But unless they do a 5eish version of C&C they will never be a big player outside of the OSR.

They've already moved to give it a more 5e aesthetic. The artwork for the 8th printing is more like 5e, up to level 24 is covered in the PHB instead of being in a supplement, and they also changed the logo to be like 5e. The mechanics are still the way they've always been, but they also re-arranged the presentation. Assassin is now presented as an optional class, while multiclassing is presented front and center. I think they've definitely already made a pivot to make C&C more appealing to 5e players, while still maintaining backwards compatibility.

Now if they'd just swallow their pride and hire a good editor.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 03:23:00 PMstuff

Hey, there is no panacea...I still think, given the multitude of alternatives, C&C is a BEST D&D-like game simply because it is so open to interpretation and handles getting mangled in whatever way you want so gracefully. I think it has more in common with the OMEGA/Bard Games/Arcanum/Talislanta system than D&D in a lot of ways, which is about as easy to understand as it gets. Rolling a D20 to hit a target number is pretty simple for even the laziest players; it is up to the GM to determine just WHAT that target number is, and thus the GM is pretty much in charge of the actual mechanics behind the scenes. You wanna make giant charts of modifiers for a billion things, go for it, then you apply them and tell the players their target is 18. Done.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 18, 2023, 01:08:49 PM
So quick question.  Downloaded the free PHB and I love what I see.   How is play compared to 5e?  Looking at this it could become my replacement for 5e which I am planning to ditch as well as anything WOTC I have now that they went "Full Retard"

I prefer to use the term, "Derp Evil".

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 03:32:55 PM
They've already moved to give it a more 5e aesthetic. The artwork for the 8th printing is more like 5e, up to level 24 is covered in the PHB instead of being in a supplement, and they also changed the logo to be like 5e. The mechanics are still the way they've always been, but they also re-arranged the presentation. Assassin is now presented as an optional class, while multiclassing is presented front and center. I think they've definitely already made a pivot to make C&C more appealing to 5e players, while still maintaining backwards compatibility.

Now if they'd just swallow their pride and hire a good editor.

People will see through the aesthetics though.

By making it 5eish I'm not saying they need to adopt all the subclass, feat, nonsense 5e has.

Just do classes basically the same as they are already doing; just adopt the 5e base math, and DC ratings.
Ditch the siege and replace with Adv/Disadv -2/+2 for all modifiers.

It would be a more or less straightforward port. But it would require going through the whole game back to front.

So I believe that I can safely say that such a thing will never happen.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2023, 05:57:26 PM

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 03:32:55 PM
They've already moved to give it a more 5e aesthetic. The artwork for the 8th printing is more like 5e, up to level 24 is covered in the PHB instead of being in a supplement, and they also changed the logo to be like 5e. The mechanics are still the way they've always been, but they also re-arranged the presentation. Assassin is now presented as an optional class, while multiclassing is presented front and center. I think they've definitely already made a pivot to make C&C more appealing to 5e players, while still maintaining backwards compatibility.

Now if they'd just swallow their pride and hire a good editor.

People will see through the aesthetics though.

By making it 5eish I'm not saying they need to adopt all the subclass, feat, nonsense 5e has.

Just do classes basically the same as they are already doing; just adopt the 5e base math, and DC ratings.
Ditch the siege and replace with Adv/Disadv -2/+2 for all modifiers.

It would be a more or less straightforward port. But it would require going through the whole game back to front.

So I believe that I can safely say that such a thing will never happen.

They'd need to be quite sure that would work. I think one of the things they're counting on is because of very distinct mechanics that aren't anyone else's thing, they can keep C&C going forward for a 9th printing with at the most removing some spells and monsters. If they change it to be more like 5e, they open themselves up to being sued by Hasbro.

Especially when it comes to mechanics not being protected but the presentation is. A Prime is essentially a +6 bonus. They could switch from CB 12 and CB 18 to saying it's a +6 Proficiency bonus, no mechanical difference, just using 5e terminology, and what they have becomes less distinct, and the presentation of the mechanics becomes more arguable. Also taking into account that while C&C has similarities to 5e, C&C had them going back to 2004.

Then there's also potentially alienating existing customers. Those who like it are probably glad that no major changes are made from one printing to the next. They may feel they're better off sticking in a safe market of loyal customers and not getting sued.

What they could do that is no risk is finally hire a proper proof-reader, and someone to do the layout right. Like get Gavin Norman to overhaul C&C and present it like OSE. Same mechanics, completely compatible with existing C&C, but presented way better, therefore way more accessible, and also appealing to the people who like the system but are turned off by the terrible editing.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 06:06:48 PM
They'd need to be quite sure that would work. I think one of the things they're counting on is because of very distinct mechanics that aren't anyone else's thing, they can keep C&C going forward for a 9th printing with at the most removing some spells and monsters. If they change it to be more like 5e, they open themselves up to being sued by Hasbro.

They are functionally an AD&D clone now.

If hasbro decides to sue them, how close or not they are to 5e will make no difference.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 06:06:48 PM
Especially when it comes to mechanics not being protected but the presentation is. A Prime is essentially a +6 bonus. They could switch from CB 12 and CB 18 to saying it's a +6 Proficiency bonus, no mechanical difference, just using 5e terminology, and what they have becomes less distinct, and the presentation of the mechanics becomes more arguable. Also taking into account that while C&C has similarities to 5e, C&C had them going back to 2004.

And yet wotzi was not concerned about lawfare from TLG...

If they become the victim of Wotzi lawfare, their proprietary siege system will not help them.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 06:06:48 PM
Then there's also potentially alienating existing customers. Those who like it are probably glad that no major changes are made from one printing to the next. They may feel they're better off sticking in a safe market of loyal customers and not getting sued.

They would have to market it as it's own thing: C&C 5th age fantasy, etc,...

Which they already did a bit of with their 5e amazing adventures game.

Then they could see the response, and shift to what makes them more money.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 06:06:48 PM
What they could do that is no risk is finally hire a proper proof-reader, and someone to do the layout right. Like get Gavin Norman to overhaul C&C and present it like OSE. Same mechanics, completely compatible with existing C&C, but presented way better, therefore way more accessible, and also appealing to the people who like the system but are turned off by the terrible editing.

I don't understand lots of typos in the computer age.

Do these people not type it all out in word (which catches spelling errors) before they port it to a pdf format?

Not hard.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2023, 06:29:24 PM
They are functionally an AD&D clone now.

If hasbro decides to sue them, how close or not they are to 5e will make no difference.

They're really not. While there are clear call-backs to AD&D, there's also strong divergence from it. It is no closer to AD&D than Palladium Fantasy.

Quote
If they become the victim of Wotzi lawfare, their proprietary siege system will not help them.

It most definitely will help them. Whether it saves them entirely is another matter, but they're in a better position as they are now, than if they were to change the system to be more like 5e.

Quote

I don't understand lots of typos in the computer age.

Do these people not type it all out in word (which catches spelling errors) before they port it to a pdf format?

Not hard.

It's not just typos. But nobody understands why it hasn't been fixed. They just don't seem to care.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 06:36:17 PM
They're really not. While there are clear call-backs to AD&D, there's also strong divergence from it. It is no closer to AD&D than Palladium Fantasy.

I have all three games.

C&C is clearly a AD&D/BX derivative. And far far closer to AD&D/BX than palladium fantasy is.

Quote from: migo on January 18, 2023, 06:36:17 PM
It most definitely will help them. Whether it saves them entirely is another matter, but they're in a better position as they are now, than if they were to change the system to be more like 5e.

No it won't.

5e Mechanics like Adv/Disadv, ascending attack rolls: Stat+Mod vs. AC or its equivalent, or vs a TN, were all done in earlier game systems. Yet somehow wotzi has not been lawfared.

And C&C uses vancian casting. The magic system that is 100% D&D DNA in most every edition. If it was really about game mechanics, that alone would be enough to sink them.

Lawfare is pay to play.

Slight system differences won't help them when anyone with eyes can look at a C&C character sheet, and clearly see that it is a D&D clone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGXGFOxYv9M&ab_channel=Heath%27sGeekverse

Great game.  It's been my go to since 2015 when I got back into gaming after a 20 year hiatus.  Plays just fine as is, no need to tinker with saves. 

I very much enjoy C&C, even though my default D&D is 0e. 

If I had a group who wanted to play AD&D, I'd sell them on C&C as it's AD&D 3.0.

I'll be interested in seeing what their C&C License might be when it arrives.

C&C is good.  I also love Old School Essentials.  Make mine Hyperborea 3e.

Quote from: Brad on January 18, 2023, 03:23:07 PM

Quote from: Teodrik on January 18, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
I really want to like C&C. But just seems like a game I would just endlessly try to tinker with and never be satisfied. The base math is a well known problem. Has anyone actually adressed and fixed the perceptive cleric problem? And no "just trust the procedure in th rules man" doesn't cut it. It's just too bonkers. Add a Perception stat? Clashes with the whole structure of the system. Everytime I find myself tinkering with the SIEGE to fix something, I realize I am really just building a new game.

So I put it down, stop shaking my fist at the clouds, pick upp BECMI+ adding in the AD&D classes and call it a day.

Not really sure what you're referring to here. Can you give an example?

The math problems of higher levels in the SIEGE system is quite well known. Often making non-prime attribute saving throws almost impossible or near impossible against spellcaster of higher level. This is as of why many people changes target numbers for primes and non-prime checks.

Secondly I referred to the perceptive cleric problem. Spot checks, like looking for stuff or roll for surprise, is a wisdom based SIEGE check. Since wisdom is a prime attribute for clerics they roll against target number 12 instead of 18, and add their stat modifier to the roll. This generally make the cleric a very good spotter in the group by default. And maybe even better than the thief (depending on if he picked wisdom as a prime or not) in the early-to-mid levels. The whole prime and not-prime mechanic often leads to this kinds of weird results regarding class abilities and general abilities.

Personally I always disliked using wisdom as a measurement for perception. In TSR D&D you could just add in a perception stat/ ability, done no problem. In SIEGE that would be a huge change because of how the six classic attributes are  balanced and connected to class abilities, saving throws and general skill checks in the engine.

I love the work they did on the DMing side of things -- it's like AD&D with how much coverage there is. But on the player side, it feels a bit underwhelming... there's basically no abilities or choices. I'm used to 5e...