Quote from: Teodrik on January 18, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
I really want to like C&C. But just seems like a game I would just endlessly try to tinker with and never be satisfied. The base math is a well known problem. Has anyone actually adressed and fixed the perceptive cleric problem? And no "just trust the procedure in th rules man" doesn't cut it. It's just too bonkers. Add a Perception stat? Clashes with the whole structure of the system. Everytime I find myself tinkering with the SIEGE to fix something, I realize I am really just building a new game.

So I put it down, stop shaking my fist at the clouds, pick upp BECMI+ adding in the AD&D classes and call it a day.

My solution was to run Swords & Wizardry instead. The S&W Unified Save mechanic does the job of giving you a task resolution system much better than the C&C SIEGE/Prime system, IME. Or you can use the optional D6-based skill system.

Thinking about it, if you like C&C otherwise, say for the class descriptions (and I do like the C&C non-casting Ranger & Bard very much) you could import the S&W d20 Unified Save and/or D6 skill check system into C&C extremely easy. Add them in for both Saves & Skills/ability checks, you never have to refer to the SIEGE/Primes system at all!

Quote from: Abraxus on January 20, 2023, 02:19:17 PM
Might as well wait then for the recent printing of all their core.

Better to get the latest print runs and aim not a fan of going back and forth with errata.

It's C&C. There will be crap editing and errata regardless.

Quote from: S'mon on January 21, 2023, 05:34:21 AM

Quote from: Teodrik on January 18, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
I really want to like C&C. But just seems like a game I would just endlessly try to tinker with and never be satisfied. The base math is a well known problem. Has anyone actually adressed and fixed the perceptive cleric problem? And no "just trust the procedure in th rules man" doesn't cut it. It's just too bonkers. Add a Perception stat? Clashes with the whole structure of the system. Everytime I find myself tinkering with the SIEGE to fix something, I realize I am really just building a new game.

So I put it down, stop shaking my fist at the clouds, pick upp BECMI+ adding in the AD&D classes and call it a day.

My solution was to run Swords & Wizardry instead. The S&W Unified Save mechanic does the job of giving you a task resolution system much better than the C&C SIEGE/Prime system, IME. Or you can use the optional D6-based skill system.

Thinking about it, if you like C&C otherwise, say for the class descriptions (and I do like the C&C non-casting Ranger & Bard very much) you could import the S&W d20 Unified Save and/or D6 skill check system into C&C extremely easy. Add them in for both Saves & Skills/ability checks, you never have to refer to the SIEGE/Primes system at all!

I also like S&W quite a bit, partly because of its single save mechanic, which really speeds up play.  And you could also just use the classic d20 roll under your attribute score mechanic to cover most miscellaneous skill checks and you're totally good to go.

Incidentally, for those who prefer them, C&C also has casting versions of the bard, ranger, & paladin but with their own dedicated spell lists, which gives them more flavor.

Quote from: S'mon on January 21, 2023, 05:34:21 AM

Quote from: Teodrik on January 18, 2023, 03:05:24 PM
I really want to like C&C. But just seems like a game I would just endlessly try to tinker with and never be satisfied. The base math is a well known problem. Has anyone actually adressed and fixed the perceptive cleric problem? And no "just trust the procedure in th rules man" doesn't cut it. It's just too bonkers. Add a Perception stat? Clashes with the whole structure of the system. Everytime I find myself tinkering with the SIEGE to fix something, I realize I am really just building a new game.

So I put it down, stop shaking my fist at the clouds, pick upp BECMI+ adding in the AD&D classes and call it a day.

My solution was to run Swords & Wizardry instead. The S&W Unified Save mechanic does the job of giving you a task resolution system much better than the C&C SIEGE/Prime system, IME. Or you can use the optional D6-based skill system.

Thinking about it, if you like C&C otherwise, say for the class descriptions (and I do like the C&C non-casting Ranger & Bard very much) you could import the S&W d20 Unified Save and/or D6 skill check system into C&C extremely easy. Add them in for both Saves & Skills/ability checks, you never have to refer to the SIEGE/Primes system at all!

A great suggestion. I have been thinking the same thing since this is how Blood&Treasure does it, which, has been my go-to option amogst OSR games. It is an elegant solution.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2023, 02:30:12 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on January 20, 2023, 02:19:17 PM
Might as well wait then for the recent printing of all their core.

Better to get the latest print runs and aim not a fan of going back and forth with errata.

I feel the opposite because I'm comfortable with the current, mostly AD&D terminology, spell names, etc.  I don't want to bother with trying to figure out what they're now calling "Magic Missile" or whatever.  So I'll likely not buy the new versions unless there's substantial new content.  But I've already got the latest versions of most things except the CKG anyhow so I'm probably fine for the foreseeable future.

I'm with you on this.  I know they have to change certain things for legal reasons, but that has no effect on my game at all.  I'll still call it a Magic Missile, Call Lightning, etc regardless.  I have every PHB from the 4th printing to the 8th, and multiple printings of the Castle Keepers Guide and Monsters & Treasure.  I don't need others at this point.

Jason Vey, one of Troll Lord's writer, made this statement on Twitter not that long back. Pundit even did a video about the backlash. This tweet caused Stephen Chenault to put out a tweet about how Troll Lord didn't get involved in politics, and Vey deleted the tweet.

"Seriously, ONLY an arrogant, entitled, middle-class, white male with the WORST kind of tinfoil-hat-wearing persecution complex would actually state that a vaccination requirement was "championing exclusion. WHAT THE F***."

Vey has featured prominently in the recent Troll Lord Twitch streams. There have been a couple of threads about C&C here and elsewhere that I normally would have hopped into to champion the system, but I've refrained because of this. I don't really like giving money to people who hate me, and it's obvious that Vey has an issue with middle class white guys, regardless of vaccination status. Otherwise why specify that particular demographic? Particularly when a lot of the more prominent people expressing vaccine skepticism aren't middle class white guys? Just an excuse to take a shot at someone he hates.

Vey is really their "Amazing Adventures" guy, as well as the owner of Elf Lair Games.  ELG has it's own fantasy system.  I don't recall him having any C&C products.  AA is a good game; Vey seems like a turd.

Edit:  I'm a big TLG fan and will continue to support them.  They're good guys who are focused on gaming.  Vey broke the rules, and it was addressed.  No problems.

Quote from: Klytus on January 22, 2023, 03:41:05 PM
Jason Vey, one of Troll Lord's writer, made this statement on Twitter not that long back. Pundit even did a video about the backlash. This tweet caused Stephen Chenault to put out a tweet about how Troll Lord didn't get involved in politics, and Vey deleted the tweet.

"Seriously, ONLY an arrogant, entitled, middle-class, white male with the WORST kind of tinfoil-hat-wearing persecution complex would actually state that a vaccination requirement was "championing exclusion. WHAT THE F***."

Vey has featured prominently in the recent Troll Lord Twitch streams. There have been a couple of threads about C&C here and elsewhere that I normally would have hopped into to champion the system, but I've refrained because of this. I don't really like giving money to people who hate me, and it's obvious that Vey has an issue with middle class white guys, regardless of vaccination status. Otherwise why specify that particular demographic? Particularly when a lot of the more prominent people expressing vaccine skepticism aren't middle class white guys? Just an excuse to take a shot at someone he hates.

You're right about Vey, of course. But this event also speaks positively of the Chenaults. They called Vey to task for his tweet and made it clear he isn't to do that again. As of the 7th printing at least, Vey doesn't seem to have worked on the core C&C products either.

Right—no company is going to be perfect. There was a situation, and they handled it, which is great. They're a solid company, who takes care of their fans.

Quote from: migo on January 22, 2023, 04:00:29 PM

Quote from: Klytus on January 22, 2023, 03:41:05 PM
Jason Vey, one of Troll Lord's writer, made this statement on Twitter not that long back. Pundit even did a video about the backlash. This tweet caused Stephen Chenault to put out a tweet about how Troll Lord didn't get involved in politics, and Vey deleted the tweet.

"Seriously, ONLY an arrogant, entitled, middle-class, white male with the WORST kind of tinfoil-hat-wearing persecution complex would actually state that a vaccination requirement was "championing exclusion. WHAT THE F***."

Vey has featured prominently in the recent Troll Lord Twitch streams. There have been a couple of threads about C&C here and elsewhere that I normally would have hopped into to champion the system, but I've refrained because of this. I don't really like giving money to people who hate me, and it's obvious that Vey has an issue with middle class white guys, regardless of vaccination status. Otherwise why specify that particular demographic? Particularly when a lot of the more prominent people expressing vaccine skepticism aren't middle class white guys? Just an excuse to take a shot at someone he hates.

You're right about Vey, of course. But this event also speaks positively of the Chenaults. They called Vey to task for his tweet and made it clear he isn't to do that again. As of the 7th printing at least, Vey doesn't seem to have worked on the core C&C products either.

If it's true that you can judge a company by the quality of its enemies, note that TLG has been the object of much ire over at TBP.

Quote from: Klytus on January 22, 2023, 03:41:05 PMit's obvious that Vey has an issue with middle class white guys, regardless of vaccination status. Otherwise why specify that particular demographic? Particularly when a lot of the more prominent people expressing vaccine skepticism aren't middle class white guys? Just an excuse to take a shot at someone he hates.

How will I know if I'm rich enough or poor enough to play Amazing Adventures? Did Jason help us out with an income bracket that he hates, perhaps a color chart so we know how paleface a male must be to be excluded from play? Are Italians olive enough to dice with him? And what about those deplorable White women smart enough to avoid poisoning themselves with medical experiments?

What a shame too. AA was a good game that I've run several times since backing the original edition Kickstarter.

I've played Shadow of the Demon Lord for a while as my 5e replacement, but I've started looking into Castles & Crusades as SotDL doesn't seem to be very well-suited for longterm play. Even if you space out advancements, characters jump in power very quickly and they soon run out of things to work towards. Plus, it seems like even at moderately higher levels - in SotDL's case 3 or 4 - the cracks in the system start to show. It's not as balanced as it seems initially and certain Path abilities and spells that can be obtained very early on can feel almost broken with just a little bit of cheesing.

Add on to that the terrible setting that takes some work scrubbing from the game's features, and the generally obnoxious "edgelordiness" and political leanings of its designer and the various game supplements, contrasting the comparatively excellent attitude of TLG and its stance against real-world politics in games, and I'm starting to feel like switching over.

For any C&C vets: how does C&C compare to SotDL? Is it about the same power level or lower? And how does it compare to 5e overall?

Bonus question, I checked out a system called Low Fantasy Gaming that also seems good, and its one-man designer has a fairly anti-woke, anti-political stance, but from looking over the rules it seems a little clunky in places. If anyone's played that, how does C&C compare?

I really quite like C&C. My only major issue is that there are no casting times/weapon speeds so I can't get granular with initiative like I can with 2e, and trying to houserule it in would be a nightmare. It's really the only thing keeping me from running it.

Quote from: shoplifter on April 07, 2023, 03:17:29 PM
I really quite like C&C. My only major issue is that there are no casting times/weapon speeds so I can't get granular with initiative like I can with 2e, and trying to houserule it in would be a nightmare. It's really the only thing keeping me from running it.

That level of detail could've turned me off to a game system. 

There is another great OSR game that has a weapon stat that's an initiative bonus.  The game is called Fantastic Heroes and Witchery.  Among its many good points is the weapon stat called Speed Factor (called segs).  Roll 1D6 each turn and add your weapon Speed Factor.  The highest goes first. 

It's a good game for a lot of other reasons.  It's one of the few games that includes transported Earth humans as a race option. 

C&C is my favorite version of D&D.

It's so easy to roll up a character and get into the action quickly. Combat flows at a reasonably speedy pace and doesn't bog down with lots of combatants.

Currently I'm playing in a bi-weekly online game (voice and Roll20) and some of us are up to 4th level. System working great so far in the lower levels.

It is a game that often sees a lot of houseruling, not because you need to, but rather because it's so easy to do to tweak things just the way you like.