Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 19, 2023, 10:17:01 AM
Given the big push to get away from 5E this past week I would not have picked Castles And Crusades as one of the top contenders.

It seems like a good game, but so do a lot of others. 

C&C has been one of the top games recommended as a 5e alternative for quite a while. I did a thread a while back asking for such recommendations, and C&C was far and away the top community pick. The reasons for this are quite possibly commercial as much as anything else. Outside of OSE, C&C seems to be the best marketed and distributed of the OSR big names. Player's Handbook pdfs are free, and it's one of the few OSR games you can reliably buy off Amazon. The presentation is more "modern"  than most competitors, it has most of the popular races/classes, it has tons of adventures, and is cross compatible with lots of adventures from other games. The only real barrier to entry for people coming from 5e is the SIEGE engine, which even though I don't personally like it, isn't exactly super difficult to learn.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 19, 2023, 10:17:01 AM
My games to pick from are these. 

1.  Dragon Warriors.  It's got a different way of handling armor (saving throw), and uses magic points instead of amnesia for wizards.  And Fighters are not a thing.  Your basic warrior is a Knight, with GM options to rename it as Samurai, Huscarl, or whatever you like. 

I like DW a lot (I'm currently running it), but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as a 5e substitute. Despite the fact that the corebook claims you could run any fantasy setting with it, DW's primary appeal (to me at least) is the specific semi-historical and heroic/romantic tone built into it. Also, a person coming from 5e or Pathfinder 2 is going to get severe culture shock from the mechanical changes and drastically fewer race/class options.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 19, 2023, 10:17:01 AM
2.  Any of the dozens of OSR games.  C&C is just one of those.

My own favorite OSR games are probably Hyperborea and Fantastic Heroes and Witchery, with Helveczia possibly about to join that club once I get more time to read it, but all three are potential hard-sells to people first coming from mainstream fantasy games. Hyperborea has the class options and despite the weird-fantasy setting, feels just like D&D in play, but it's a THAC0 game, and is pretty steeped in AD&D crunch when it comes to how spells, travel etc. work. FH&W has tons of options as well and no THAC0, but also no bestiary, setting or adventures. Helveczia is an even more specific setting and tone than Dragon Warriors, and one that's even more different than what a nu-school D&D player would be used to.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 19, 2023, 10:17:01 AM
3.  Shadow of the Demon Lord.  Lots of character building options since you pick three classes over time instead of one at the start. 

So, SOTDL is a game I'm of two minds about. Mechanically, I think it's brilliant. I don't love AC and never will, but it's the only game I know of that approaches 3.5/5e/Pathfinder levels of character customization without falling into the rules bloat that plagues those games. I think the mix-and-match class system takes the best elements of both D&D's class system and WFRP's professions and combines them, and I also think SOTDL has one of the most elegant spells-per-day system I've ever seen. On the other hand, I absolutely hate the setting, which seems to take all the worst elements of both modern D&D and Warhammer Fantasy. Even more than DW, the setting is woven into the spells and classes to the extent that it isn't easily extricable.

I believe I've heard that Robert Schwalb is working on a "high fantasy" version of SOTDL. When that comes out, there's a good possibility that it'll be the perfect 5e replacement.

Also those that do like Shadow of the Demon Lord should really check out Punkapocalytic, another Robert Schwalb product which is basically "Shadow of Lord Humongous". To me it's got a comparable level of cringe to the setting, but I see to be the only one that thinks so.

One of the other big OSR-adjacent games that hasn't seen much coverage around here lately is Dungeon Crawl Classics, which should also continue to do well in the current environment.  I'd say that its overall presence in the hobby exceeds that of C&C.  I've certainly seen it in lots of brick and mortar stores, including in my small hometown.  They also carry C&C at times and always have OSE in stock, for what that's worth.

Additionally, and germane to this thread, the brand new Swords & Sorcery game "Swords & Chaos" is based on the C&C Siege Engine, but take elements from DCC, most notably the Luck stat and the "Mighty Deeds" mechanic for warriors, along with spell corruption.  I haven't seen the full game yet as I backed only the physical book, but for those of you interested in C&C but wanting a few more elements from later D&D editions, this could be an alternative.

In running C&C, I didn't stress the Cleric / WIS / Perception issue.

Clerics have the spell Find Traps. Why? Because the Gawds apparently hate traps whacking their templars. Thus, a bonus Clerics gain with their Prime is noticing traps as frequently as Thieves.

Plus, when you have a group without a Thief, the Cleric is your Trap-Sniffer!

Quote from: Persimmon on January 19, 2023, 08:23:15 PM
One of the other big OSR-adjacent games that hasn't seen much coverage around here lately is Dungeon Crawl Classics, which should also continue to do well in the current environment.  I'd say that its overall presence in the hobby exceeds that of C&C.  I've certainly seen it in lots of brick and mortar stores, including in my small hometown.  They also carry C&C at times and always have OSE in stock, for what that's worth.

Additionally, and germane to this thread, the brand new Swords & Sorcery game "Swords & Chaos" is based on the C&C Siege Engine, but take elements from DCC, most notably the Luck stat and the "Mighty Deeds" mechanic for warriors, along with spell corruption.  I haven't seen the full game yet as I backed only the physical book, but for those of you interested in C&C but wanting a few more elements from later D&D editions, this could be an alternative.

DCC is very popular, but the authors also understand that it isn't for everyone, and tell you right at the beginning if you don't like certain things, the game is not for you. It's not a good pick for people who want something like 5e with as little change as possible. It's for people who want something distinctly different from 5e, but prefer something that is overall better designed than games from the 80s and 90s.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 20, 2023, 12:48:28 AM
In running C&C, I didn't stress the Cleric / WIS / Perception issue.

Clerics have the spell Find Traps. Why? Because the Gawds apparently hate traps whacking their templars. Thus, a bonus Clerics gain with their Prime is noticing traps as frequently as Thieves.

Plus, when you have a group without a Thief, the Cleric is your Trap-Sniffer!

This is a good explanation. The other thing you could do is base perception off Charisma. Highly charismatic people have the ability to read a room and pick up subtle signs. It especially makes sense if you want to notice if someone is lying to you. Perception could also be based off intelligence, depending on what it is that the characters are supposed to notice. C&C gives you flexibility to use the attribute you think is most appropriate, and of course gives you the advice (buried in a later chapter) to not roll for every little thing.

If the Rogue's player announces as they're entering the room that they're searching for traps, you don't need to roll - just say that they found it. If the player didn't announce it, then you can secretly roll for them to see if they noticed it on passing.

If Perception is a problem, just make it automatically a +6 for the classes that are supposed to be good at it. Detach it from stats.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 19, 2023, 08:11:17 PM
So, SOTDL is a game I'm of two minds about. Mechanically, I think it's brilliant. I don't love AC and never will, but it's the only game I know of that approaches 3.5/5e/Pathfinder levels of character customization without falling into the rules bloat that plagues those games. I think the mix-and-match class system takes the best elements of both D&D's class system and WFRP's professions and combines them, and I also think SOTDL has one of the most elegant spells-per-day system I've ever seen. On the other hand, I absolutely hate the setting, which seems to take all the worst elements of both modern D&D and Warhammer Fantasy. Even more than DW, the setting is woven into the spells and classes to the extent that it isn't easily extricable.

I believe I've heard that Robert Schwalb is working on a "high fantasy" version of SOTDL. When that comes out, there's a good possibility that it'll be the perfect 5e replacement.

Also those that do like Shadow of the Demon Lord should really check out Punkapocalytic, another Robert Schwalb product which is basically "Shadow of Lord Humongous". To me it's got a comparable level of cringe to the setting, but I see to be the only one that thinks so.

I've heard lots of good things about SotDL, but it seems like it isn't the kind of game you can run with any longevity.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 19, 2023, 09:54:36 AM

Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 18, 2023, 03:11:05 PM

Much faster, especially combat. No feats/skills/powers bogging shit down, orcs don't have 46,000 hit points.

I've only ran it once since learning the rules, but it was for my kids over the weekend and they grokked it just fine. Tomorrow night's the first "real" session with one of my groups, so I'll know more after that, but from the little play I've had with it, it played great.

Great information.  I am liking what I am reading and I really like the idea of faster combat.

Last night's session went off without a hitch! We only game for three hours, and lost one of them because we had an unexpected guest show up (good friend of a few guys in last night's group happened to be on my side of town and we hadn't seen him in forever so he hung out and shot the shit for a while), but we did get in a couple of combats, and some good RP and exploration. Combats again went just as quick as we're used to with BECMI, and my players (who are familiar with the TSR way of doing things as well as the 5E way of doing things) slid into C&C with absolutely no effort whatsoever.

That's awesome to hear! It really is a great "meeting" place for people coming from different versions of the game.

I am getting back into blogging, and did a "So You Want To Play Castles & Crusades" page--more about where people can find the main books, additional resources, and other things to get them started. (I'm surprised how many people don't know the PHB and M&T are free downloads, despite being promoted by the Trolls!)

Anyhow, feedback is more than welcome:
https://rpgblogredo.blogspot.com/p/so-you-want-to-play-castles-crusades.html

I got my start in TTRPGs with Palladium (TMNT, Heroes Unlimited, and Rifts) in 1990, moving on to AD&D 2nd Edition, before branching out into World of Darkness (Mage and Hunter) in the latter part of the 90s.  I was an avid and early 3.0 adopter, didn't play much 3.5, played some 4e but didn't really like how it played until Essentials.  Then I started missing TSR-era play.  After getting into the Next playtest (don't recall which one), I ran an adventure for my group of friends, then moved and focused on my career.

I took about a decade off of TTRPGs, to come back in late 2021 to 5e.  After one session, I realized that it was not at all like the D&D Next packets that I play-tested, and I found it very different from other D&D systems though with a veneer of being like older D&D*.  This was somewhat disappointing, as my wife got me a Dungeon in a Box for Christmas 2021, and so I tried to DM her and my two teen daughters through it.  Unfortunately, they found character creation to be too confusing, with my wife at one point throwing her sheet and pencil across the room in frustration (she had previously played 3.0 and it was too different for her with too many decisions to be made before even playing, such as backgrounds and personality traits).

After flirting with OSE, in May I bit the bullet and purchased the tribute covers of C&C.  We rolled up characters in less than 15 minutes (and that included going over the SEIGE Engine), and set to the Dungeon in a Box.  I DMed it like I did TSR era game, and my wife and daughters had a blast.  We only ever rolled "skills" when there was a significant chance of failure, which kept the exploration phase moving quickly.  I had forgotten how fast old school combat could be, and so I DMed a random encounter as I would in 3.x and 4e and they just went all-out on my wandering monsters and decimated them, forcing the survivors to flee.

So, needless to say, my wife and daughters love C&C.  I'm trying to convince my best friend to switch his campaigns to it; he currently has all my books to review.  So many of us in our group have expressed nostalgia for the quick and imaginative play of 2nd Edition and earlier versions that it should be an easy sell to the rest of the group, but, hey, best friend is DM, so he gets final decision on what he wants to run. 

I am dipping my toes in Savage Worlds SWADE for the home game (in part because my best friend has my C&C books at the moment).  That's partly due to the Savage Pathfinder thread, me having followed it somewhat since 2012, and concern over the OGL's impact on TLG's ability to print new works.  The latter is being alleviated in part due to what TLG is posting on their Facebook group (don't care for Discord, sorry) in regards to pulling from the first game that they released, as well other comments from them about stripping out OGL material. 

All in all, I highly recommend C&C for an AD&D like experience with some more modern mechanics.

*It's mostly the proficiency bonus.  Everyone ends up with a +6 at 20th level.  This is the first time I've seen a D&D where your wizard attacks as well with a (proficient) weapon as a fighter.  That's a huge change to me, and one that I've not seen commented upon elsewhere.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 19, 2023, 08:11:17 PM
C&C has been one of the top games recommended as a 5e alternative for quite a while. I did a thread a while back asking for such recommendations, and C&C was far and away the top community pick. The reasons for this are quite possibly commercial as much as anything else. Outside of OSE, C&C seems to be the best marketed and distributed of the OSR big names. Player's Handbook pdfs are free, and it's one of the few OSR games you can reliably buy off Amazon. The presentation is more "modern"  than most competitors, it has most of the popular races/classes, it has tons of adventures, and is cross compatible with lots of adventures from other games. The only real barrier to entry for people coming from 5e is the SIEGE engine, which even though I don't personally like it, isn't exactly super difficult to learn.

I think one change, even acknowledged in the CKG, makes SEIGE very easy to explain to 5e players: prime is the same as "trained" and it gives you a +6 to your roles against that attribute.

This also frees you to set DCs instead of adding an additional modified to either 12 or 18 depending on prime.

I think someone mentioned this up thread, but Troll Lord did a 1 hour Twitch episode last night where they went into detail about their plans for stripping SRD content out and producing a new printing of C&C.  They stressed that there will be new terminology and a few other tweaks, but that it would remain backwards compatible. 

Check it out here if you're interested: https://www.twitch.tv/trolllordgames

You do not need a Twitch account to simply watch.

Might as well wait then for the recent printing of all their core.

Better to get the latest print runs and aim not a fan of going back and forth with errata.

Quote from: Abraxus on January 20, 2023, 02:19:17 PM
Might as well wait then for the recent printing of all their core.

Better to get the latest print runs and aim not a fan of going back and forth with errata.

I feel the opposite because I'm comfortable with the current, mostly AD&D terminology, spell names, etc.  I don't want to bother with trying to figure out what they're now calling "Magic Missile" or whatever.  So I'll likely not buy the new versions unless there's substantial new content.  But I've already got the latest versions of most things except the CKG anyhow so I'm probably fine for the foreseeable future.

Quote from: Abraxus on January 20, 2023, 02:19:17 PM
Might as well wait then for the recent printing of all their core.

Better to get the latest print runs and aim not a fan of going back and forth with errata.

Guessing it is probably split between those who think this way, and those who want to grab the books with the precise terminology they have now. I can understand either approach.

Quote from: Zachary The First on January 20, 2023, 06:38:23 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on January 20, 2023, 02:19:17 PM
Might as well wait then for the recent printing of all their core.

Better to get the latest print runs and aim not a fan of going back and forth with errata.

Guessing it is probably split between those who think this way, and those who want to grab the books with the precise terminology they have now. I can understand either approach.

I just dropped $150 on the starter kit last week, but will be getting the new versions at least in digital so I can use the new, SRD-free terminology because I'll be putting out 3rd party modules for it. Otherwise I'd not bother.