I have very little experience with it.

I do like the general idea of the Narrative Dice System, wherein it's not just a success/fail test, but also other indicators that help the GM determine which direction the story should go. This of course works best for those who want more of a story-driven game, as opposed to the "OSR dungeon delving, let the story emerge by itself" kind of playstyle.

Use of any dice, for me, has to be seen from the perspective that the dice control the world and control probability. It isn't about what's realistic within the confines of the world setting, but about what the dice tell you can happen. I have a hard time determining where the line should be drawn between where the GM makes a ruling and where the dice say something is possible. Use of any system I have used in its purity has, as you put it, never really *clicked* with me. There always seems to be something off.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.

Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...

They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.

How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?

What the fucking fuck.

This is really old news. Have really never heard of it until now?

Quote from: tenbones on March 07, 2022, 11:18:04 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.

Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...

They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.

How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?

What the fucking fuck.

No one would accuse me of being a Storygamer. I own the *entire* FFG Star Wars line. I'm one of the few people on this forum that publicly defends the game - and I certainly didn't start as a fan. In fact I sounded exactly like you, LOL.

I saw those dice and I was like WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK? I *really* wanted to play some Star Wars (and yes I still own all my WEG books) but my players were wanting to try the new shiny. But yeah those dice were a HUUUUUUUUUUGE hurdle for me on the surface. I started watching some videos - Runeslinger specifically, and his presentation of the rules got my piqued.

So while yes it looks like a load of steaming shit - it actually plays fantastically well and it's not nearly as "narrative" as people think.

Effectively the dice represent Bonuses and Penalties that cancel each other out on the roll.

In that image the bottom three dice oppose the top three dice. It's a Stat + Skill = Dice vs. Difficulty dice - + Modifiers. The results are hard numbers - HOWEVER you can if you want use some of the results to toss in narrative benefits/difficulties, or roll on a random table. OR you can spend them to activate actual mechanical effects (Talents or Gear).

I've been running it for years - and it really does work. My first game session I wanted to put it through its paces, and the combat flowed well, and I felt the Starship combat worked *really* well. Even across scales of ships (Starfighter to Capital).

I own Genesys too - never ran it. There ARE problems with the system, but ironically the dice mechanic isn't it. AS an aside, and I have to say this everytime I step up to the plate for FFG SW, is that you can use normal dice, they even provide a table for you, or an app (I do not recommend since I like dice rolling).

But yeah - is you wanted to use a "Runecasting" system... this would be a good place to look for ideas. It looks janky, but it plays quite well.

I would also add - I know a few people that have tried this system, and it simply didn't click. I think there is this thing where people pretend it's very abstract when it literally doesn't have to be since you can just use tables to dictate the results purely mechanically. But they also provide other options that can prompt GM's to get creative.

I will agree that the dice system of the SWRPGs plays very well, but the game lines have some serious problems.

Talent bloat is a real issue. Instead of most experienced characters having a few cool and increasingly powerful capabilities, characters might have dozens of talents that each only apply a tiny bonus. Keeping track of them all is a real pain in the ass, and the talent trees often require taking some garbage talents to get to the ones you want.

Subsystem bloat is also a problem, but one many GMs don't worry about because they don't use many of the subsystems. What I'm talking about here are all of the various add-on rules spread across 30+ supplements. The crafting rules are one example and are largely crap, with each type of crafting is its own subsystem.

The personal/planetary scale interface sucks ass. If you want to use light vehicles or big creatures, go with WEG's scaling system, because in FFG Star Wars, even the lightest (Silhouette 2, like a speeder bike or a Hutt's floaty platform) can mount an auto-blaster that will annihilate a rancor or krayt dragon with one autofire burst. Oh, and that auto-blaster is dirt cheap, legal, and easily available. The scale also sucks ass when smaller spacecraft (like fighters and light freighters) face capital ships. Again, WEG did this way better.

That's not to say that FFG didn't do some things really well. I really liked some aspects of the system, but the above parts really sucked.

Quote from: tenbones on March 07, 2022, 11:18:04 AM
No one would accuse me of being a Storygamer. I own the *entire* FFG Star Wars line. I'm one of the few people on this forum that publicly defends the game - and I certainly didn't start as a fan. In fact I sounded exactly like you, LOL.

I saw those dice and I was like WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK? I *really* wanted to play some Star Wars (and yes I still own all my WEG books) but my players were wanting to try the new shiny. But yeah those dice were a HUUUUUUUUUUGE hurdle for me on the surface. I started watching some videos - Runeslinger specifically, and his presentation of the rules got my piqued.

So while yes it looks like a load of steaming shit - it actually plays fantastically well and it's not nearly as "narrative" as people think.

Effectively the dice represent Bonuses and Penalties that cancel each other out on the roll.

I always thought it was bemusing that FFG hyped this system as a "storytelling" one. But in actual play it cleaves closer to say HeroScape's system of success pips being negated by corresponding defender success pips. But the presentation, and that first one I posted is straight from FFGs explanation of the game, makes it very look like its a storygame.

I really think the game would have gotten alot less resistance had they not tried to gimmick it to death. Its much how Gamma World and especially 4e D&D GW keep getting presented as goofball slapstick. When its usually very not. Then tack on to that a CCG and it was doomed before it even got out the gate. FFG just when about mangling their game in a more round-about manner. So it actually got out the gate.

I disagree though that using the dice purely mechanically is better. That misses the charm of its oracle system once you get the hang of it.
I still believe the symbols are a bit too similar and probably for some increase the barrier to learn it just that little bit more.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 02:33:38 PM

I will agree that the dice system of the SWRPGs plays very well, but the game lines have some serious problems.

Talent bloat is a real issue. Instead of most experienced characters having a few cool and increasingly powerful capabilities, characters might have dozens of talents that each only apply a tiny bonus. Keeping track of them all is a real pain in the ass, and the talent trees often require taking some garbage talents to get to the ones you want.

Nailed it. The problem is you don't discover this until you're fairly deep into the game. The early game doesn't reveal this until you start realizing how "haphazard" the Talents disseminated across the trees. Rather than coalescing what PC's should have at later-stages of the game and balancing the Trees accordingly, they purposely try to breadcrumb you down the Trees to force you to pick up mediocre/bad talents along the way.

The talents themselves need to be re-drawn and plugged directly to the main pressure-points of task resolution. As it stands now - it literally recreates much of the issues of World of Warcraft, where there are "optimal builds" and weird Role combinations that players will shoot for just to get some uber-stack of Talents.

I'm of the opinion that the system needs a another edition and cleanup. It's very playable, but it definitely has flaws.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 02:33:38 PMSubsystem bloat is also a problem, but one many GMs don't worry about because they don't use many of the subsystems. What I'm talking about here are all of the various add-on rules spread across 30+ supplements. The crafting rules are one example and are largely crap, with each type of crafting is its own subsystem.

Yeah agreed. I'd add a slightly finer point to it - what annoys the shit out of me is why they didn't just put out a free PDF with all the Sub-systems they added to the game for free. The problem with crafting is the arbitrariness of Hard Points in how they assign them. You can re-create stuff already in the book... and modify it. But if you wanted to create something original? forget it...

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 02:33:38 PMThe personal/planetary scale interface sucks ass. If you want to use light vehicles or big creatures, go with WEG's scaling system, because in FFG Star Wars, even the lightest (Silhouette 2, like a speeder bike or a Hutt's floaty platform) can mount an auto-blaster that will annihilate a rancor or krayt dragon with one autofire burst. Oh, and that auto-blaster is dirt cheap, legal, and easily available. The scale also sucks ass when smaller spacecraft (like fighters and light freighters) face capital ships. Again, WEG did this way better.

That's not to say that FFG didn't do some things really well. I really liked some aspects of the system, but the above parts really sucked.

I find the abstraction of the range zones was "odd" but for Theater of the Mind play, I got pretty comfortable with it. I think the biggest issue with Ship Combat is not the combat rules at all... I think it's the *requirement* of the PC's to be INVESTED in the skills and possibly Talents to actually engage in Ship Combat without getting blown out of the space. There simply aren't enough points that many players can justify to do their chosen role, then realize that those rolls didn't really allow them to simulate heroes in the fiction/movies when it comes to Ship Combat.

My parties have to plan around it. Including someone deciding to be a dedicated Pilot often to give them an edge.

If those bases are covered, then it goes very well... but you know, it takes deliberation.

Quote from: tenbones on March 08, 2022, 10:44:28 AM
There simply aren't enough points that many players can justify to do their chosen role, then realize that those rolls didn't really allow them to simulate heroes in the fiction/movies when it comes to Ship Combat.

My parties have to plan around it. Including someone deciding to be a dedicated Pilot often to give them an edge.

Ironically, the "dedicated pilot" is a pretty standard (if not ubiquitous) trope in fiction/movies.

Quote from: Zalman on March 08, 2022, 11:04:01 AM

Quote from: tenbones on March 08, 2022, 10:44:28 AM
There simply aren't enough points that many players can justify to do their chosen role, then realize that those rolls didn't really allow them to simulate heroes in the fiction/movies when it comes to Ship Combat.

My parties have to plan around it. Including someone deciding to be a dedicated Pilot often to give them an edge.

Ironically, the "dedicated pilot" is a pretty standard (if not ubiquitous) trope in fiction/movies.

In FFG SW - the corollary of this reality means that outside of the cockpit... you're not particularly good at anything else. I stare at the wall of FFG SW books I own. Super well produced products, very high quality. And while I've gotten a lot of pleasure running it... but we're already discussing possibly running Star Wars for our next campaign  - and we're eyeballing Savage Worlds. That should speak volumes considering I have a lot of money invested in FFG... hahaha.

I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.

It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 03:43:53 PM
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.

It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.

False comparison; in any d20 game, combat abities are hardwired to advance automatically. That doesn't happen in any skill-based system.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 03:43:53 PM
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.

It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.

I have these sentiments as well. Starfinder is interesting me (I admit it's more of a non-Star Wars surface thing) - but I can't do the system. I've considered translating it to SWADE... but that's time I don't have right now.

Quote from: tenbones on March 08, 2022, 04:50:24 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 03:43:53 PM
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.

It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.

I have these sentiments as well. Starfinder is interesting me (I admit it's more of a non-Star Wars surface thing) - but I can't do the system. I've considered translating it to SWADE... but that's time I don't have right now.

Mechanically, the system is clunky as fuck. You're better off playing SWADE anyways.

The problems in the system *are* the problem. Not the dice-mechanics. Those are actually very good. If I cared enough I'd love a crack at doing a new edition to fix those problems. But yeah - I don't care enough to invest the time.

SWADE can do the job, I know for fact, faster better. But like all things SWADE you just need to dial it in. Fortunately that's pretty easy.

Back on track! The other thread on old-school dice brought up the idea of Chits!

Why not 3-d printed runes you flip over like basic D&D chits? Durable, highly customizable in design. This could be a cool thing!

Quote from: tenbones on March 09, 2022, 11:02:59 AM
The problems in the system *are* the problem. Not the dice-mechanics. Those are actually very good. If I cared enough I'd love a crack at doing a new edition to fix those problems. But yeah - I don't care enough to invest the time.

SWADE can do the job, I know for fact, faster better. But like all things SWADE you just need to dial it in. Fortunately that's pretty easy.

If trying to retain the benefits of the FFGSW/Genesys dice mechanics--particularly the results on two axes of success/failure and advantage & triumph ("ands")/threat & despair ("buts"), then I do not see Savage Worlds doing it "faster better." Sure, Savage Worlds has raises so you can get "success + advantage" and critical failures allow for "failure + threat," but it doesn't really have anything that compares to "success + threat" or "failure + advantage." IMO, those latter two results can be some of the most interesting outcomes.

I agree - but the faster speed is what you sacrifice for the granularity of FFG's dice mechanic. I should also be noted that one doesn't roll for the same reasons in SWADE that one might roll in FFG. FFG's designed to create context where otherwise no one considered there might be.

SWADE rolls are supposed to happen only when there is significance to the idea of failing. FFG creates more fine granular results based on their more detailed skills and any roll the GM feels could be "a thing".

And granularity in the hands of a good GM can definitely keep things interesting. It's one of the criticisms I see a lot about SWADE in other forums that people *want* granularity, but a lot of SW GM's want to keep things simple. It's the kind of bifurcation that exists between people that like crunchier editions of D&D and OSR.

But the primary problems with FFG's Star Wars is *not* the Dice mechanic. Which is why the Rune Casting idea, if done right, could definitely work. The OP needs to understand that it's going to be a very hard sell in some circles, if not most. Especially without a license to back it, imo.

Pendelhaven's games all use these norse runes:



I've written some details on Vanagard here https://composedreamgames.com/forum/discussion/comment/109/#Comment_109

I remember how Fate of the Norns works a little less well, but it is more "trad" RPG.