I am a huge fan of the rune casting that is used in the board games Call To Adventure and even Runebound, although I liked the d20 better in Runebound, 1st edition. Would anyone consider using a system like this in a roleplaying game? Have you tried and what was the result?
On a somewhat related note, I seem to dislike roleplaying games that rely on dice pool as the primary mechanic. I don't think anyone should ever roll more than 6 dice at a time. But if using runes, I could see possibly using more, depending on the situation, but I also feel like that might make me a bit of a hypocrite. Are they different enough to warrant differing opinions?
I'm not familiar with that method. Explanation, please.
Quote from: MadCarthos on February 25, 2022, 03:39:31 AM
I am a huge fan of the rune casting that is used in the board games Call To Adventure and even Runebound, although I liked the d20 better in Runebound, 1st edition. Would anyone consider using a system like this in a roleplaying game? Have you tried and what was the result?
On a somewhat related note, I seem to dislike roleplaying games that rely on dice pool as the primary mechanic. I don't think anyone should ever roll more than 6 dice at a time. But if using runes, I could see possibly using more, depending on the situation, but I also feel like that might make me a bit of a hypocrite. Are they different enough to warrant differing opinions?
I've not used runes. However I do have a homebrew western game inspired by Boot Hill that uses playing cards as a dice pool. It does add a unique thematically interesting dynamic to the game that you don't get with dice.
I have not tried it, but it sounds kinda gimmicky, to me.
To me, the dice are a tool for taking a given probability and determining a result. I prefer for the probabilities to be obvious and clear so that I can use the tool in the most efficient manner, including modifications to the probability and so on. Consequently, I'm not a fan of systems that obscure the probabilities or make them more difficult to reason about.
(This is probably why most of my favorite systems use dice with a linear probability, like rolling a d20 in D&D or rolling d100 in systems like BRP. I find it very easy to think about probabilities in terms of percentages, and those systems make it very easy to do so.)
Is casting runes something like the FFG Star Wars dice system or playing Dragon Dice?
Quote from: Mishihari on February 25, 2022, 03:47:06 AM
I'm not familiar with that method. Explanation, please.
I am trying to find a youtube video with a demonstration of the runes, but I can try to describe them. In both
Call to Adventure and
Runebound 3rd edition, players can resolve challenges or combat by casting runes. These are flat 2-sided cardboard circles or tablets of plastic with symbols on either side. Several runes are cast at once, by shaking them in the hand then throwing them onto a flat surface. (They are basically d2's.) In
Call to Adventure, for example, the basic runes have 1 success on one side of the rune, and nothing on the other side. As heroes gain abilities, they gain access to advanced runes that have 1 and 2, or even 1 and 3 successes, allowing them to defeat harder and harder challenges.
So these aren't like actual futhark runes?
Here we go. This is a basic description of the runecasting method in
Call to Adventure, even though the tutorial is for one of the game's expansions. Start around 3:04 for the time stamp if you don't want to hear the rest of it.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on February 25, 2022, 11:03:50 PM
I have not tried it, but it sounds kinda gimmicky, to me.
To me, the dice are a tool for taking a given probability and determining a result. I prefer for the probabilities to be obvious and clear so that I can use the tool in the most efficient manner, including modifications to the probability and so on. Consequently, I'm not a fan of systems that obscure the probabilities or make them more difficult to reason about.
(This is probably why most of my favorite systems use dice with a linear probability, like rolling a d20 in D&D or rolling d100 in systems like BRP. I find it very easy to think about probabilities in terms of percentages, and those systems make it very easy to do so.)
I have the opposite point of view. Figuring probabilities takes my head right out of the fiction and forcibly reminds me that I'm playing a game. In real life I don't know that I have an 80% of making a jump, just more of a qualitative "really good chance" so that's plenty good enough for in-game. On the other hand, gimmicky probability mechanics can also be distracting from immersion, so they're not necessarily a good thing.
Quote from: Mishihari on February 26, 2022, 09:01:51 AM
I have the opposite point of view. Figuring probabilities takes my head right out of the fiction and forcibly reminds me that I'm playing a game. In real life I don't know that I have an 80% of making a jump, just more of a qualitative "really good chance" so that's plenty good enough for in-game. On the other hand, gimmicky probability mechanics can also be distracting from immersion, so they're not necessarily a good thing.
Sounds like you're coming at it more from a player's perspective. And I agree with you on that: I don't think players need to be aware of the probabilities in a well-run game. I'm coming at it from the DM's perspective, where determining probabilities (e.g., deciding on modifiers, target numbers, and so on) is a big part of what you do.
Quote from: MadCarthos on February 25, 2022, 03:39:31 AMWould anyone consider using a system like this in a roleplaying game? Have you tried and what was the result?
Waaaay back in the day, there was an RPG called
Throwing Stones where each player's character was defined by a pool of specialized dice. Each die had a unique set of symbols that represented various things: dodging, disarm, sorcery, etc, and you'd construct your character based on the type of dice you'd include: some dice had combat related symbols while others had magical symbols. Unfortunately for the game, the dice symbols were just printed on and they easily rubbed off. Still, it is an interesting idea for a resolution mechanic that I've never seen used anywhere else.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on February 26, 2022, 08:29:02 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on February 26, 2022, 09:01:51 AM
I have the opposite point of view. Figuring probabilities takes my head right out of the fiction and forcibly reminds me that I'm playing a game. In real life I don't know that I have an 80% of making a jump, just more of a qualitative "really good chance" so that's plenty good enough for in-game. On the other hand, gimmicky probability mechanics can also be distracting from immersion, so they're not necessarily a good thing.
Sounds like you're coming at it more from a player's perspective. And I agree with you on that: I don't think players need to be aware of the probabilities in a well-run game. I'm coming at it from the DM's perspective, where determining probabilities (e.g., deciding on modifiers, target numbers, and so on) is a big part of what you do.
You're exactly right that that's my view as a player. As a DM I do figure probabilities, but I have as much time as I need to do it, so it's not too critical that things can be quickly computed. I suppose with a system like this I would come up with a probability table for the results if I wanted to speed things up. I suspect I may not be typical in this regard though. I do various kinds of math for a living so I'm probably more willing to put up with a bit of computation than most.
It may be a fun flavor aspect of the game, particularly if you have a Nordic theme.
Let's not forget polyhedral dice were weird once upon a time, and part of the idea of using Zocchi's d7s, d5s, etc. with DCC was to recapture some of that feeling.
There's Everway's tarot-card-like system, which suits the story-based nature of that system well, I think.
Quote from: MadCarthos on February 25, 2022, 03:39:31 AM
I am a huge fan of the rune casting that is used in the board games Call To Adventure and even Runebound, although I liked the d20 better in Runebound, 1st edition. Would anyone consider using a system like this in a roleplaying game? Have you tried and what was the result?
On a somewhat related note, I seem to dislike roleplaying games that rely on dice pool as the primary mechanic. I don't think anyone should ever roll more than 6 dice at a time. But if using runes, I could see possibly using more, depending on the situation, but I also feel like that might make me a bit of a hypocrite. Are they different enough to warrant differing opinions?
If it does the same thing then what's the difference? You use runes or a Vic 20 computer or dice or a bunch of those spin the arrows things it's all the same.
Now if you did something like flipping cards that took some skill to get a better something, THAT might be fun!
Seek out Fate of the Norns.
Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on February 26, 2022, 12:25:11 AM
So these aren't like actual futhark runes?
This was my immediate thought . . . for folks looking for something that does, I'd encourage you to check out Pendelhaven's games. (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/pendelhaven) They all use rune's drawn from a bag to resolve action. Characters have different sets, and depending on what you pull you may be able to perform different actions. Implementation varies between games.
Fate of the Norns: Ragnarok is the big core game, and is pretty trad other than the resolution and heavy viking lore. They did a translation of all the eddas with a fair amount of unifying stories between em, called the Illumniated Eddas that I've been reading through lately. Mythology sure can be strange sometimes.
Vanagard is much more on the light story-game side, but the story card art is fantastic.
Quote from: Mishihari on February 27, 2022, 04:40:15 AM
You're exactly right that that's my view as a player. As a DM I do figure probabilities, but I have as much time as I need to do it, so it's not too critical that things can be quickly computed.
We probably have different styles, there. I imagine you're thinking of creating an adventure and assigning difficulties or target numbers for prepared challenges or obstacles. Most of the situations I'm thinking of come up in game, at the table during play. Often I'm handling a game situation that I may not have even considered during prep. I do a lot of the "coming up with a probability or an appropriate modifier" thing on the fly, so having something fast and easy to reason about is a benefit.
Lace and Steel and at least one other RPG out there use a tarot deck for chargen for example.
Theres been one or two tries at runestone throwing RPGs back in the late 90s. I think I even still have one, or had it. But do not recall the title. It had these plastic or porcelin-like stones in it. Each with a rune on it.
Theres at least 3 PC games that do from way back too. The 90s was big on this stuff for a brief time.
But for a modern take on it you have games like FFG's Star Wars game where the dice have these symbols on them and you have to interpret the outcomes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/edge-of-the-empire/core-book/dice-system/SWE01-dicepool.jpg)
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Torchbearer has these: (https://imgcdn.gamefound.com/extralarge/projects/1125/1b495a91-d907-4711-bcb5-a5a83aef1226.jpeg)
They are marked with dots that show their number, but you don't really need those. Generally it's just: Wyrms (1-3 )= failure. Axes
(4-5) & Burning Wheel (6) = success.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...
They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/df/7c/df7c43d9-daa2-453f-aa19-3881d15c559d/gns01_dice_names.png)
I agree with the sentiment it seems a bit gimmicky. If casting runes is directly related to an ingame action then it might be immersive (for example the PCs are sorcerers and throw rune in game to cast their spells). But generally I want clean results I can see to keep me engaged in the story, and dice do this well. For me stopping to interpret results breaks that immersion.
Broadly agree with the idea that GMs and to an extent PCs shouod have a clear understanding of the odds as well.
That said I have no issue with massive (regular) dice pools.
I would say it can work when done right. But there is a threshold where it can become too complex or too gimmiky to work. Much like using cards or a tarot instead of dice.
Theres also the problem that it can, and likely will, take longer to get each outcome. Either from just having to draw and replace runes, or the task of reading the oracle. Yes you can over time get better at it. But its still a time cost that needs to be weighed. I mean theres plenty of players who can use the FFG system and dice smoothly. But theres others who struggle with it. And keep in mind that every roll has to be parsed out individually.
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...
They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/df/7c/df7c43d9-daa2-453f-aa19-3881d15c559d/gns01_dice_names.png)
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
We tried that Star Wars garbage and avoided the Genesys game that pushed the dice too. It was awful. There were some fawning fans but blech.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
It seemed to sell well and of course Storygamers loved it. I wonder if it would have fared so well without a popular IP connected to it.
The main problem was that the game was stupidly expensive if you got into it and wanted access to all the stuff. As FFG true to form sectioned the extra classes and some other stuff up and sold them individually. Getting every class or add on to just Edge of Empire alone would set you back 245$. The supplements another 250$ and 150$ for the core, starter and GM set. And of course something like 14$ per dice set.
You could play with just the core and some dice. Just like you can play 2e D&D without all the Handbook sets.
Locally it seemed to do well for at least a year. But I suspect FFG eventually dropped the ball at some point as they oft do now. Probably the hype and novelty of the dice wore off too. Its not a bad system. But it takes a certain mindset to really get into. Anyone used to other oracle storytelling systems like FU or Mythic, or the old Universalis will likely pick up on the way this plays easier.
Doesnt Fate require you to read the +/- dice too?
Quote from: Omega on March 07, 2022, 09:07:36 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
It seemed to sell well and of course Storygamers loved it. I wonder if it would have fared so well without a popular IP connected to it.
The main problem was that the game was stupidly expensive if you got into it and wanted access to all the stuff. As FFG true to form sectioned the extra classes and some other stuff up and sold them individually. Getting every class or add on to just Edge of Empire alone would set you back 245$. The supplements another 250$ and 150$ for the core, starter and GM set. And of course something like 14$ per dice set.
You could play with just the core and some dice. Just like you can play 2e D&D without all the Handbook sets.
Locally it seemed to do well for at least a year. But I suspect FFG eventually dropped the ball at some point as they oft do now. Probably the hype and novelty of the dice wore off too. Its not a bad system. But it takes a certain mindset to really get into. Anyone used to other oracle storytelling systems like FU or Mythic, or the old Universalis will likely pick up on the way this plays easier.
Doesnt Fate require you to read the +/- dice too?
I'm mystified as to how this could be an improvement over the old West End Games d6 SW. I should not have to do this much prep work to fucking read dice.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...
They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/df/7c/df7c43d9-daa2-453f-aa19-3881d15c559d/gns01_dice_names.png)
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
No one would accuse me of being a Storygamer. I own the *entire* FFG Star Wars line. I'm one of the few people on this forum that publicly defends the game - and I certainly didn't start as a fan. In fact I sounded exactly like you, LOL.
I saw those dice and I was like WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK? I *really* wanted to play some Star Wars (and yes I still own all my WEG books) but my players were wanting to try the new shiny. But yeah those dice were a HUUUUUUUUUUGE hurdle for me on the surface. I started watching some videos - Runeslinger specifically, and his presentation of the rules got my piqued.
So while yes it looks like a load of steaming shit - it actually plays fantastically well and it's not nearly as "narrative" as people think.
Effectively the dice represent Bonuses and Penalties that cancel each other out on the roll.
In that image the bottom three dice oppose the top three dice. It's a Stat + Skill = Dice vs. Difficulty dice - + Modifiers. The results are hard numbers - HOWEVER you can if you want use some of the results to toss in narrative benefits/difficulties, or roll on a random table. OR you can spend them to activate actual mechanical effects (Talents or Gear).
I've been running it for years - and it really does work. My first game session I wanted to put it through its paces, and the combat flowed well, and I felt the Starship combat worked *really* well. Even across scales of ships (Starfighter to Capital).
I own Genesys too - never ran it. There ARE problems with the system, but ironically the dice mechanic isn't it. AS an aside, and I have to say this everytime I step up to the plate for FFG SW, is that you can use normal dice, they even provide a table for you, or an app (I do not recommend since I like dice rolling).
But yeah - is you wanted to use a "Runecasting" system... this would be a good place to look for ideas. It looks janky, but it plays quite well.
I would also add - I know a few people that have tried this system, and it simply didn't click. I think there is this thing where people pretend it's very abstract when it literally doesn't have to be since you can just use tables to dictate the results purely mechanically. But they also provide other options that can prompt GM's to get creative.
I've been more interested in the gaming systems of TTRPG's than in actually playing the games. I find this sad, but it is what it is.
In playtesting different systems, I have come to the conclusion that the "add bonus to your probability roll" system is fun but lacks in many respects verisimilitude, and there is no way with that system to really fix this problem (at least not that I have found).
While I have not learned Star Wars' system yet, I wonder if it lends itself to more verisimilitude. What do you think?
OSR thinking kind of accomplishes this with their "Rulings not rules" concept. Sadly, this excludes dice in almost all respects.
Quote from: tenbones on March 07, 2022, 11:18:04 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...
They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/df/7c/df7c43d9-daa2-453f-aa19-3881d15c559d/gns01_dice_names.png)
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
No one would accuse me of being a Storygamer. I own the *entire* FFG Star Wars line. I'm one of the few people on this forum that publicly defends the game - and I certainly didn't start as a fan. In fact I sounded exactly like you, LOL.
I saw those dice and I was like WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK? I *really* wanted to play some Star Wars (and yes I still own all my WEG books) but my players were wanting to try the new shiny. But yeah those dice were a HUUUUUUUUUUGE hurdle for me on the surface. I started watching some videos - Runeslinger specifically, and his presentation of the rules got my piqued.
So while yes it looks like a load of steaming shit - it actually plays fantastically well and it's not nearly as "narrative" as people think.
Effectively the dice represent Bonuses and Penalties that cancel each other out on the roll.
In that image the bottom three dice oppose the top three dice. It's a Stat + Skill = Dice vs. Difficulty dice - + Modifiers. The results are hard numbers - HOWEVER you can if you want use some of the results to toss in narrative benefits/difficulties, or roll on a random table. OR you can spend them to activate actual mechanical effects (Talents or Gear).
I've been running it for years - and it really does work. My first game session I wanted to put it through its paces, and the combat flowed well, and I felt the Starship combat worked *really* well. Even across scales of ships (Starfighter to Capital).
I own Genesys too - never ran it. There ARE problems with the system, but ironically the dice mechanic isn't it. AS an aside, and I have to say this everytime I step up to the plate for FFG SW, is that you can use normal dice, they even provide a table for you, or an app (I do not recommend since I like dice rolling).
But yeah - is you wanted to use a "Runecasting" system... this would be a good place to look for ideas. It looks janky, but it plays quite well.
I would also add - I know a few people that have tried this system, and it simply didn't click. I think there is this thing where people pretend it's very abstract when it literally doesn't have to be since you can just use tables to dictate the results purely mechanically. But they also provide other options that can prompt GM's to get creative.
What do you find to be the biggest issues with Genesys? I own it as well, and it intrigues me, but I do not feel a *click* I guess.
I have very little experience with it.
I do like the general idea of the Narrative Dice System, wherein it's not just a success/fail test, but also other indicators that help the GM determine which direction the story should go. This of course works best for those who want more of a story-driven game, as opposed to the "OSR dungeon delving, let the story emerge by itself" kind of playstyle.
Use of any dice, for me, has to be seen from the perspective that the dice control the world and control probability. It isn't about what's realistic within the confines of the world setting, but about what the dice tell you can happen. I have a hard time determining where the line should be drawn between where the GM makes a ruling and where the dice say something is possible. Use of any system I have used in its purity has, as you put it, never really *clicked* with me. There always seems to be something off.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...
They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/df/7c/df7c43d9-daa2-453f-aa19-3881d15c559d/gns01_dice_names.png)
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
This is really old news. Have really never heard of it until now?
Quote from: tenbones on March 07, 2022, 11:18:04 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2022, 03:45:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 04, 2022, 11:25:18 AM
Jesus Christ. Omega, that looks awful. Next time someone complains D&D or PF is too complex, I'm shoving that in their face.
Oh it gets "better" The different dice/colour have meanings too...
They repurposed the dice for their Genesys RPG. A generic storygame. They work for the storytelling oracle system fairly well, if overly complex, once you get how to read the runes.
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/df/7c/df7c43d9-daa2-453f-aa19-3881d15c559d/gns01_dice_names.png)
How well did this game sell, again? Or is it dead on arrival?
What the fucking fuck.
No one would accuse me of being a Storygamer. I own the *entire* FFG Star Wars line. I'm one of the few people on this forum that publicly defends the game - and I certainly didn't start as a fan. In fact I sounded exactly like you, LOL.
I saw those dice and I was like WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK? I *really* wanted to play some Star Wars (and yes I still own all my WEG books) but my players were wanting to try the new shiny. But yeah those dice were a HUUUUUUUUUUGE hurdle for me on the surface. I started watching some videos - Runeslinger specifically, and his presentation of the rules got my piqued.
So while yes it looks like a load of steaming shit - it actually plays fantastically well and it's not nearly as "narrative" as people think.
Effectively the dice represent Bonuses and Penalties that cancel each other out on the roll.
In that image the bottom three dice oppose the top three dice. It's a Stat + Skill = Dice vs. Difficulty dice - + Modifiers. The results are hard numbers - HOWEVER you can if you want use some of the results to toss in narrative benefits/difficulties, or roll on a random table. OR you can spend them to activate actual mechanical effects (Talents or Gear).
I've been running it for years - and it really does work. My first game session I wanted to put it through its paces, and the combat flowed well, and I felt the Starship combat worked *really* well. Even across scales of ships (Starfighter to Capital).
I own Genesys too - never ran it. There ARE problems with the system, but ironically the dice mechanic isn't it. AS an aside, and I have to say this everytime I step up to the plate for FFG SW, is that you can use normal dice, they even provide a table for you, or an app (I do not recommend since I like dice rolling).
But yeah - is you wanted to use a "Runecasting" system... this would be a good place to look for ideas. It looks janky, but it plays quite well.
I would also add - I know a few people that have tried this system, and it simply didn't click. I think there is this thing where people pretend it's very abstract when it literally doesn't have to be since you can just use tables to dictate the results purely mechanically. But they also provide other options that can prompt GM's to get creative.
I will agree that the dice system of the SWRPGs plays very well, but the game lines have some serious problems.
Talent bloat is a real issue. Instead of most experienced characters having a few cool and increasingly powerful capabilities, characters might have dozens of talents that each only apply a tiny bonus. Keeping track of them all is a real pain in the ass, and the talent trees often require taking some garbage talents to get to the ones you want.
Subsystem bloat is also a problem, but one many GMs don't worry about because they don't use many of the subsystems. What I'm talking about here are all of the various add-on rules spread across 30+ supplements. The crafting rules are one example and are largely crap, with each type of crafting is its own subsystem.
The personal/planetary scale interface sucks ass. If you want to use light vehicles or big creatures, go with WEG's scaling system, because in FFG Star Wars, even the lightest (Silhouette 2, like a speeder bike or a Hutt's floaty platform) can mount an auto-blaster that will annihilate a rancor or krayt dragon with one autofire burst. Oh, and that auto-blaster is dirt cheap, legal, and easily available. The scale also sucks ass when smaller spacecraft (like fighters and light freighters) face capital ships. Again, WEG did this way better.
That's not to say that FFG didn't do some things really well. I really liked some aspects of the system, but the above parts really sucked.
Quote from: tenbones on March 07, 2022, 11:18:04 AM
No one would accuse me of being a Storygamer. I own the *entire* FFG Star Wars line. I'm one of the few people on this forum that publicly defends the game - and I certainly didn't start as a fan. In fact I sounded exactly like you, LOL.
I saw those dice and I was like WHAT IN THE ACTUAL FUCK? I *really* wanted to play some Star Wars (and yes I still own all my WEG books) but my players were wanting to try the new shiny. But yeah those dice were a HUUUUUUUUUUGE hurdle for me on the surface. I started watching some videos - Runeslinger specifically, and his presentation of the rules got my piqued.
So while yes it looks like a load of steaming shit - it actually plays fantastically well and it's not nearly as "narrative" as people think.
Effectively the dice represent Bonuses and Penalties that cancel each other out on the roll.
I always thought it was bemusing that FFG hyped this system as a "storytelling" one. But in actual play it cleaves closer to say HeroScape's system of success pips being negated by corresponding defender success pips. But the presentation, and that first one I posted is straight from FFGs explanation of the game, makes it very look like its a storygame.
I really think the game would have gotten alot less resistance had they not tried to gimmick it to death. Its much how Gamma World and especially 4e D&D GW keep getting presented as goofball slapstick. When its usually very not. Then tack on to that a CCG and it was doomed before it even got out the gate. FFG just when about mangling their game in a more round-about manner. So it actually got out the gate.
I disagree though that using the dice purely mechanically is better. That misses the charm of its oracle system once you get the hang of it.
I still believe the symbols are a bit too similar and probably for some increase the barrier to learn it just that little bit more.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 02:33:38 PM
I will agree that the dice system of the SWRPGs plays very well, but the game lines have some serious problems.
Talent bloat is a real issue. Instead of most experienced characters having a few cool and increasingly powerful capabilities, characters might have dozens of talents that each only apply a tiny bonus. Keeping track of them all is a real pain in the ass, and the talent trees often require taking some garbage talents to get to the ones you want.
Nailed it. The problem is you don't discover this until you're fairly deep into the game. The early game doesn't reveal this until you start realizing how "haphazard" the Talents disseminated across the trees. Rather than coalescing what PC's should have at later-stages of the game and balancing the Trees accordingly, they purposely try to breadcrumb you down the Trees to force you to pick up mediocre/bad talents along the way.
The talents themselves need to be re-drawn and plugged directly to the main pressure-points of task resolution. As it stands now - it literally recreates much of the issues of World of Warcraft, where there are "optimal builds" and weird Role combinations that players will shoot for just to get some uber-stack of Talents.
I'm of the opinion that the system needs a another edition and cleanup. It's very playable, but it definitely has flaws.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 02:33:38 PMSubsystem bloat is also a problem, but one many GMs don't worry about because they don't use many of the subsystems. What I'm talking about here are all of the various add-on rules spread across 30+ supplements. The crafting rules are one example and are largely crap, with each type of crafting is its own subsystem.
Yeah agreed. I'd add a slightly finer point to it - what annoys the shit out of me is why they didn't just put out a free PDF with all the Sub-systems they added to the game for free. The problem with crafting is the arbitrariness of Hard Points in how they assign them. You can re-create stuff already in the book... and modify it. But if you wanted to create something original? forget it...
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 07, 2022, 02:33:38 PMThe personal/planetary scale interface sucks ass. If you want to use light vehicles or big creatures, go with WEG's scaling system, because in FFG Star Wars, even the lightest (Silhouette 2, like a speeder bike or a Hutt's floaty platform) can mount an auto-blaster that will annihilate a rancor or krayt dragon with one autofire burst. Oh, and that auto-blaster is dirt cheap, legal, and easily available. The scale also sucks ass when smaller spacecraft (like fighters and light freighters) face capital ships. Again, WEG did this way better.
That's not to say that FFG didn't do some things really well. I really liked some aspects of the system, but the above parts really sucked.
I find the abstraction of the range zones was "odd" but for Theater of the Mind play, I got pretty comfortable with it. I think the biggest issue with Ship Combat is not the combat rules at all... I think it's the *requirement* of the PC's to be INVESTED in the skills and possibly Talents to actually engage in Ship Combat without getting blown out of the space. There simply aren't enough points that many players can justify to do their chosen role, then realize that those rolls didn't really allow them to simulate heroes in the fiction/movies when it comes to Ship Combat.
My parties have to plan around it. Including someone deciding to be a dedicated Pilot often to give them an edge.
If those bases are covered, then it goes very well... but you know, it takes deliberation.
Quote from: tenbones on March 08, 2022, 10:44:28 AM
There simply aren't enough points that many players can justify to do their chosen role, then realize that those rolls didn't really allow them to simulate heroes in the fiction/movies when it comes to Ship Combat.
My parties have to plan around it. Including someone deciding to be a dedicated Pilot often to give them an edge.
Ironically, the "dedicated pilot" is a pretty standard (if not ubiquitous) trope in fiction/movies.
Quote from: Zalman on March 08, 2022, 11:04:01 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 08, 2022, 10:44:28 AM
There simply aren't enough points that many players can justify to do their chosen role, then realize that those rolls didn't really allow them to simulate heroes in the fiction/movies when it comes to Ship Combat.
My parties have to plan around it. Including someone deciding to be a dedicated Pilot often to give them an edge.
Ironically, the "dedicated pilot" is a pretty standard (if not ubiquitous) trope in fiction/movies.
In FFG SW - the corollary of this reality means that outside of the cockpit... you're not particularly good at anything else. I stare at the wall of FFG SW books I own. Super well produced products, very high quality. And while I've gotten a lot of pleasure running it... but we're already discussing possibly running Star Wars for our next campaign - and we're eyeballing Savage Worlds. That should speak volumes considering I have a lot of money invested in FFG... hahaha.
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.
It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 03:43:53 PM
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.
It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.
False comparison; in any d20 game, combat abities are hardwired to advance automatically. That doesn't happen in any skill-based system.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 03:43:53 PM
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.
It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.
I have these sentiments as well. Starfinder is interesting me (I admit it's more of a non-Star Wars surface thing) - but I can't do the system. I've considered translating it to SWADE... but that's time I don't have right now.
Quote from: tenbones on March 08, 2022, 04:50:24 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 08, 2022, 03:43:53 PM
I would like to note my Starfinder PC was the designated pilot. And he was the operative, and perfectly good at shanking bad guys in the back or supplying sniper overwatch as well.
It's not good when Starfinder handles it better than Star Wars, gotta say.
I have these sentiments as well. Starfinder is interesting me (I admit it's more of a non-Star Wars surface thing) - but I can't do the system. I've considered translating it to SWADE... but that's time I don't have right now.
Mechanically, the system is clunky as fuck. You're better off playing SWADE anyways.
The problems in the system *are* the problem. Not the dice-mechanics. Those are actually very good. If I cared enough I'd love a crack at doing a new edition to fix those problems. But yeah - I don't care enough to invest the time.
SWADE can do the job, I know for fact, faster better. But like all things SWADE you just need to dial it in. Fortunately that's pretty easy.
Back on track! The other thread on old-school dice brought up the idea of Chits!
Why not 3-d printed runes you flip over like basic D&D chits? Durable, highly customizable in design. This could be a cool thing!
Quote from: tenbones on March 09, 2022, 11:02:59 AM
The problems in the system *are* the problem. Not the dice-mechanics. Those are actually very good. If I cared enough I'd love a crack at doing a new edition to fix those problems. But yeah - I don't care enough to invest the time.
SWADE can do the job, I know for fact, faster better. But like all things SWADE you just need to dial it in. Fortunately that's pretty easy.
If trying to retain the benefits of the FFGSW/Genesys dice mechanics--particularly the results on two axes of success/failure and advantage & triumph ("ands")/threat & despair ("buts"), then I do not see Savage Worlds doing it "faster better." Sure, Savage Worlds has raises so you can get "success + advantage" and critical failures allow for "failure + threat," but it doesn't really have anything that compares to "success + threat" or "failure + advantage." IMO, those latter two results can be some of the most interesting outcomes.
I agree - but the faster speed is what you sacrifice for the granularity of FFG's dice mechanic. I should also be noted that one doesn't roll for the same reasons in SWADE that one might roll in FFG. FFG's designed to create context where otherwise no one considered there might be.
SWADE rolls are supposed to happen only when there is significance to the idea of failing. FFG creates more fine granular results based on their more detailed skills and any roll the GM feels could be "a thing".
And granularity in the hands of a good GM can definitely keep things interesting. It's one of the criticisms I see a lot about SWADE in other forums that people *want* granularity, but a lot of SW GM's want to keep things simple. It's the kind of bifurcation that exists between people that like crunchier editions of D&D and OSR.
But the primary problems with FFG's Star Wars is *not* the Dice mechanic. Which is why the Rune Casting idea, if done right, could definitely work. The OP needs to understand that it's going to be a very hard sell in some circles, if not most. Especially without a license to back it, imo.
Pendelhaven (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/pendelhaven)'s games all use these norse runes:
(https://composedreamgames.com/forum/uploads/editor/ff/qof5thezsmcf.jpg)
I've written some details on Vanagard here https://composedreamgames.com/forum/discussion/comment/109/#Comment_109
I remember how Fate of the Norns works a little less well, but it is more "trad" RPG.
I'll just poke my head in here to speak about Fate of the Norns: Ragnarok a little bit. I've written a few books for Pendelhaven and was one of the designers, and the project manager, for the new Celtic Children of Eriu that just finished its Kickstarter fulfillment.
So, FotN and CoE use Elder Furthark runes to resolve conflict in a way that really captures the spirit of the 9-10th Century AD where the game is set. In a lot of ways it comes off feeling more like a narrative-based resource mechanic like a twisted RPG version of Magic: The Gathering than it does a dice game, since your runes are your resources and signify special things your character can do. Other than the individual powers your runes represent, your character is defined by two numbers: how many runes they have in their bag, and how many runes they can draw. So, at it's core it's pretty simple, but a lot can be built on to that, to taste.
Compose Dream Games was saying that FotN is the more trad game and Vanagard is the more story game, and that's kind of true. Vanagard is a world-building storygame. But FotN provides a huge depth of field to play how you want. If you want crunchy, it does crunchy - you just keep adding new powers to your character every time you get another rune and then you have a slew of them, you use a hex grid and you go to town. If you're more like me, and don't want to be bothered with maps and minis or even the kinds of powers that would lend you down those routes, you then you can stick to things that give you passive bonus' and narrative bents.
We're running some games online at the upcoming Garrycon if anyone is interested: https://tabletop.events/conventions/gary-con-xiv. If you want a looser more narrative Viking experience, sign up for one of my games. If you want a crunchier, hex-grid min-maxy (not knocking it, people love it) Viking mayhem experience, sign up for basically any of the other FotN GM's games. Ed Greenwood is also running one based on his new box set for the line, and his games are kind of both.
I'm here if anyone has any questions about how it works. I lived inside those rules for two years getting Children of Eriu to print; I think they're burned in there, now.
//James Kerr