Quote from: YourSwordisMine;627978So does B/X D&D: 3 Fighters can block a 10 foot wide corridor... No one is getting to the squishy center until one of those fighters goes down...

Just out of interest, could the hiding Wizard cast spells through the location of his friendly Fighters? How about through the location of the enemy fighters that implied to be facing your allies?

Quote from: gleichman;627971Thanks for that, most would just have whined that I was just complaining about maps and minis again.

I don't fault you for the approach you take here. I think it's a rather natural one. As I said in another thread, a GM runs his games with bias towards player success. It's necessary to have a campaign of any real length. It's this bias that makes it difficult for a GM to enforce weaknesses of this nature.

So while a wizard my be weak in hit points, and have his spells disrupted all the time, and be a wet tissue that can be killed in passing- he seldom actually is.

Instead GMs allow fighters to easily protect him, uses random target selection instead of tactical selection, always moves to attack closest opponent (instead of most important), limits enemy lines of approach and fire, and other (sometimes unconscious) means that in combination serve to protect the wizard. If the players make even the weakest suggestion that they're taking protective measures- they will be ruled to work.

The end result is what was intended to be a balancing feature by the designer is mostly negated.

Carrying this a bit further, it's why many players don't remember or account for these weaknesses when talking about Wizards and old versions of the game. They in truth didn't really apply in their experience.

The balance issue is that the wizard is by far the most effective as a member of a team.  You would see the spell interruption issue come up all of the time when the wizard tried to do battles by him or herself.  

It also has a few other subtle balance points, like making the Elf on the front lines more reluctant to cast unless it is a tough situation.  

In later editions of D&D (Pathfinder, 3rd edition), it is quite possible to imagine a party of all wizards.  In B/X the wizard is deathly effective as a member of a large group.  Not that they cannot win a solo fight -- it happens.  Just that they are playing a high stakes gamble.

The real test for how hard core the DM is is whether the DM allows people to take into account who is casting a spell when selecting a target.  The rules are a bit vague on this point, but rules as written it is a very possible interpretation of the order of declaration.  [of course, if he does this for PCs then he should do it for NPC casters too and these tactics go both ways]  If (s)he does allow an archer to try and ping the spell caster then there is a very non-theoretical risk of a spell not going off (and I saw this in actual play all of the time).  However, there is at least a 50% chance of the spell working (win or tie initiative) and these spells can be game changing when they work.  

But, without fighters and clerics, the battle with a couple of bad initiative rolls will be a blood bath.  I remember the cumulative effect of removing restrictions in my later experience (2nd edition AD&D) and it completely changed the power curve.  

One thing that is true in B/X is even the strongest caster is deeply concerned with being attacked by a squad of opponents.  In 2E, especially if you drop spell interruption or use spells like Stoneskin, there is a point when this situation becomes a speed bump.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;627974From my experience in B/X and 1e, a 1st Level M-U was a walking speed bump, and the best thing for said M-U was to stay as far back as possible from the fight and cast from the rear.  Even then, intelligent monsters would rain arrows in the direction of the M-U because they were easily taken out.  One friend used to describe an M-U's clothing as having targets painted on it.

Just to contrast, OD&D first level characters are pretty much the same. A marked contrast to my AD&D campaigns back in the day. A fighter may survive two hits and go down on the third and a magic-user may survive a hit and go down on the second. They all attack on the same chart and with the original rules only do the same damage.

Playing a wizard is about prep. A decent wizard will always have
i) a thing to stop him being suprised killed - most popular would be to steal the party's cloak of displacement
ii) a method of escaping - eventually this will be a contingency trigged to occur all by itself
iii) a thing to distract the people trying to kill him while he runs away


So at first level with limited options the wizard might

i) disguise himself as a hireling or torch bearer to reduce the chance he will be the target of snipers or ambushes, he may also give another bearer a hat to wear with wizard written on it and a robe with stars on it to wear
ii) the wizard stays at the back of the party and at a certain point flees, always no exceptions so when the bad guys get through this far I am off
iii) at first level this might be hirelings or the other PCs or a pet dog


At 16th level
i) cloak of displacement
ii) Contingent teleport of some type
iii) magically charmed or bound creature, big scary demon trapped in a crystal etc etc


I can remember a great D&D game when our pretty tough group of 7-9th level PCs were taking on some elves. One PC was a wizard who had acquired a sphere of anhilation which he stored mostly in a portable hole. This thing was devastating, however..... at one point an elven cleric attacked us with a pillar of flame targetted the Wizard and pop.... he only had 24 HP or something and had never thought of getting himself prepped probably because in previous games the DMs has been easy on him for some reason.

In AD&D the caster starts to surpass the figther by about 9th level and by 15th level the gap is a wide one. By 20 the Wizard is godlike and keeps on improving.
Some will say that this is fine because of the pain a wizard goes through from 1-5. I would argue that it would be relatively easy to smooth that curve just through manipulating the spell slots.

The more I think about it the more I think everyone should get a d6 HP (or even a set number from 1-6 based on stats with an average 11 Str, 11 Con male getting 4hp) at 0 level then any class HP should be added to that. This would serve to make wizards less fragile at lower levels and you could if you wished easly differentiate the skill part of HP from the physical wounds part so If you are asleep then you have your 0 level HP etc etc

Quote from: jibbajibba;628006Playing a wizard is about prep. A decent wizard will always have
i) a thing to stop him being suprised killed - most popular would be to steal the party's cloak of displacement
ii) a method of escaping - eventually this will be a contingency trigged to occur all by itself
iii) a thing to distract the people trying to kill him while he runs away


So at first level with limited options the wizard might

i) disguise himself as a hireling or torch bearer to reduce the chance he will be the target of snipers or ambushes, he may also give another bearer a hat to wear with wizard written on it and a robe with stars on it to wear
ii) the wizard stays at the back of the party and at a certain point flees, always no exceptions so when the bad guys get through this far I am off
iii) at first level this might be hirelings or the other PCs or a pet dog


At 16th level
i) cloak of displacement
ii) Contingent teleport of some type
iii) magically charmed or bound creature, big scary demon trapped in a crystal etc etc


I can remember a great D&D game when our pretty tough group of 7-9th level PCs were taking on some elves. One PC was a wizard who had acquired a sphere of anhilation which he stored mostly in a portable hole. This thing was devastating, however..... at one point an elven cleric attacked us with a pillar of flame targetted the Wizard and pop.... he only had 24 HP or something and had never thought of getting himself prepped probably because in previous games the DMs has been easy on him for some reason.

In AD&D the caster starts to surpass the figther by about 9th level and by 15th level the gap is a wide one. By 20 the Wizard is godlike and keeps on improving.
Some will say that this is fine because of the pain a wizard goes through from 1-5. I would argue that it would be relatively easy to smooth that curve just through manipulating the spell slots.

The more I think about it the more I think everyone should get a d6 HP (or even a set number from 1-6 based on stats with an average 11 Str, 11 Con male getting 4hp) at 0 level then any class HP should be added to that. This would serve to make wizards less fragile at lower levels and you could if you wished easly differentiate the skill part of HP from the physical wounds part so If you are asleep then you have your 0 level HP etc etc

In B/X there is no contingency spell.  The Rules Cyclopedia has it as a 9th level spell (available at 21st level).  Even then it can only trigger a spell of 4th level or less (so maybe a dimension door).  

Displacer cloak exists but the game effect (-2 to hit) is nice but not perfect although the protection versus missile weapons is pleasant, but only in the Rules Cyclopedia version.  

I think the shift towards invulnerable wizards is why they outpace Fighters by so much in later editions.  In B/X the real strength of the wizard is in:

1) Utility spells (many of which are enormously useful)
2) Massive attack spells (for more effective than a melee warrior) like web, sleep or fireball.  

There are also some protective spells, with Mirror Image and Protection from Normal missiles standing out.  But playing a wizard is all about living with risk.  Even teleports have a bad habit of eventually going really wrong and need that full round of casting to work.  

It is not that they are weak, but rather that (with the rules as written) it is hard to imagine them completely dominating the battlefield either.  That really is the natural home of the Fighter.

Quote from: Votan;628012In B/X there is no contingency spell.  The Rules Cyclopedia has it as a 9th level spell (available at 21st level).  Even then it can only trigger a spell of 4th level or less (so maybe a dimension door).  

Displacer cloak exists but the game effect (-2 to hit) is nice but not perfect although the protection versus missile weapons is pleasant, but only in the Rules Cyclopedia version.  

I think the shift towards invulnerable wizards is why they outpace Fighters by so much in later editions.  In B/X the real strength of the wizard is in:

1) Utility spells (many of which are enormously useful)
2) Massive attack spells (for more effective than a melee warrior) like web, sleep or fireball.  

There are also some protective spells, with Mirror Image and Protection from Normal missiles standing out.  But playing a wizard is all about living with risk.  Even teleports have a bad habit of eventually going really wrong and need that full round of casting to work.  

It is not that they are weak, but rather that (with the rules as written) it is hard to imagine them completely dominating the battlefield either.  That really is the natural home of the Fighter.

My examples were just that, examples. The basic rules are the same.
If a wizard goes into a combat situation cold they will probabaly die if they go in well prepared they can usually survive. This is unlike a fighter where the base level is the same unless you use weapons v armour table but even that is a minor 'prep' item.

1E wizards have better spells and magic items than B/X Wizards, generally.

With 1E I am not overly fond of some spells from unearthed arcana, like stoneskin.

Spells that are insanely effective tend to become omnipresent and thus boring to me.

I would rather see a wizard protect himself with a clever use of an illusion or charm than the boring old Mirror image, Invisibility, Stoneskin. Yawn.



1E rules question: If a wizard has stoneskin up, is he immune to spell interuption?

Just curious how that works raw.

I don't use interruption, so I have no idea.



Improved invisibility, Stoneskin, Fireshield...trifecta of uberness.

Quote from: Bill;6280751E wizards have better spells and magic items than B/X Wizards, generally.

With 1E I am not overly fond of some spells from unearthed arcana, like stoneskin.

Spells that are insanely effective tend to become omnipresent and thus boring to me.

I would rather see a wizard protect himself with a clever use of an illusion or charm than the boring old Mirror image, Invisibility, Stoneskin. Yawn.



1E rules question: If a wizard has stoneskin up, is he immune to spell interuption?

Just curious how that works raw.

I don't use interruption, so I have no idea.



Improved invisibility, Stoneskin, Fireshield...trifecta of uberness.

I always played it like it was damage immunity.  If you get hit, you still get hit, it's just that it doesn't damage you.  Ergo, you still had spell interruption as a possible result.

However, I could see it played like it was total immunity and an M-U could keep casting.

Quote from: Bill;6280751E wizards have better spells and magic items than B/X Wizards, generally.

With 1E I am not overly fond of some spells from unearthed arcana, like stoneskin.

Spells that are insanely effective tend to become omnipresent and thus boring to me.

I would rather see a wizard protect himself with a clever use of an illusion or charm than the boring old Mirror image, Invisibility, Stoneskin. Yawn.



1E rules question: If a wizard has stoneskin up, is he immune to spell interuption?

Just curious how that works raw.

I don't use interruption, so I have no idea.



Improved invisibility, Stoneskin, Fireshield...trifecta of uberness.

Remember in 1e and I suspect B/X, wizards don't get to pick their spells they get what they find and they need to roll % to be able to learn a spell based on their int so spells only become ubiquitous if the DM chooses to make them so.

I think Stoneskin would make you immune to most forms of interupt, so for example an arrow, dagger, sling stone could be ignored. However touch based attacks still have effect. The intention here one supposes was to allow level drain etc , but you could extrapolate to say that any form of grapple is in effect a touch attack with a special effect since having skin as hard as stone would be no protection against someone bending one's arm behind one's back I would therefore allow grapples to cause an interupt. I would extend that to include triping the wizard, with a whip, bolas etc, putting a sack over their head, wrapping bandages round their mouth to interupt the verbal component etc etc

By the letter of course a bag of stones can close a stoneskin in one attack, as stoneskin lasts for x attacks rather than x rounds so throwing a bucket of stones at someone would effectively use up one defense for each stone even if each stone would in itself cause no damage and merely be enough to trigger a spell interupt due to failed concentration.
See that bag of marbles has many uses ......

Quote from: gleichman;627981Just out of interest, could the hiding Wizard cast spells through the location of his friendly Fighters? How about through the location of the enemy fighters that implied to be facing your allies?

Yes, with a little common sense and unit tactics.

Movement phase: front line opens ranks, crouches w/shields, and/or otherwise gets out of the way (a generous DM might not even count this as full "movement phase")

Missile phase: archers/slingers/hurlers fire

Spell phase: magic-user unleashes spell

How would you do it?

Note that by the time the enemy closes in, it's probably too late to use any "artillery" (i.e. spells).  In the case of ambush, tighten the ranks around the weaker members of the party (such as the MU), and fight for your life!

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;628085Yes, with a little common sense and unit tactics.

Movement phase: front line opens ranks, crouches w/shields, and/or otherwise gets out of the way (a generous DM might not even count this as full "movement phase")

Missile phase: archers/slingers/hurlers fire

Spell phase: magic-user unleashes spell

How would you do it?

Note that by the time the enemy closes in, it's probably too late to use any "artillery" (i.e. spells).  In the case of ambush, tighten the ranks around the weaker members of the party (such as the MU), and fight for your life!

One of the problems though is that most games don't rely on tactical ability they substitute it for system mastery.
In the best case the designer knows as much about small unit tactics as you do and agrees with your version of the benefits and bonuses, Worst case they know nothing at all and have got all the rules wrong or the GM is encouraged to ad lib and their views and yours are radically opposed.

Often use of small unit tactics can become use of the player skill of 'ability to pursuade the GM I know what I am talking about' . Useful but not directly related.

Quote from: Bill;627861Spell Components and Interuption. I did not say only spell components.

However, many spell components create huge handicaps for a MU.

Hope your live spider did not die that you have carried around for that spider climb spell.

I love spell componants, but I give a modest bonus for using them instead of preventing spell casting without them. Its the roleplay element of spell components I value, not the loss of spellcasting they can cause.

Spell interruption is the bigger offender. Any idiot can poke a Wizard with a stick and he loses a spell. I have run many, many multi year 1E dnd games, and never used spell interuption as a normal practice.

I find that the limitations of a spellbook and being well rested to memorize spells is plenty without interruption.

No, I know. I was just saying I as a player liked the spell components rules. I, naturally, hated the interruption rules I still was able to play a wizard though. I made very good use of "meat shields"... and my dagger occasionally. I also kept the cleric busy.

I had a little box for the spider. I had a custom backpack made with an internal wooden frame, and exterior pockets for wands and scrolls. I had a better utility belt than Batman. When I had a live spider, I kept him under my hat in his little box. There was the now cliche many-pocketed robe, supplemented by wrist pouches. It was awesome.

Yes, it made playing the wiz challenging (which was the point, otherwise everybody would be one), but IMO "impossible" is a bit too extreme a description.

Quote from: jibbajibba;627866Quite I was merely saying that in a universe where you were an actual magic user with powers of that sort these are the tactics you would actually adopt. Which is what Vance does in his books with wizards with these powers and restrictions.

You would scan the location from your satelite analyze the defenses and weaknesses then send in a remote drone to bomb the crap of it. Or if the location was not accessible to wizard eye - fireball, you would teleport (airdrop) in a precision team with just the right spells and equipment (weapons and tactics) to deal with the enemy in the most effective manner then you would port (evac) the fuck out of there before the rest of the gnolls/orcs (terrorists/Somali millitants) turned up to give you a pasting.

So... Wraith Recon

Quote from: flyerfan1991;627974From my experience in B/X and 1e, a 1st Level M-U was a walking speed bump, and the best thing for said M-U was to stay as far back as possible from the fight and cast from the rear.  Even then, intelligent monsters would rain arrows in the direction of the M-U because they were easily taken out.  One friend used to describe an M-U's clothing as having targets painted on it.

This is why my MUs almost always would hire the biggest, dumbest, shield-bearing bodyguards they could afford as soon as they could afford them. Next came a bearer so my wiz wouldn't have to carry his own shit.

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;628085Yes, with a little common sense and unit tactics.

Makes sense, the default answer seems to be no but you can always maneuver to allow it. I would imagine however that doing so would 'open the window' both ways.

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;628085How would you do it?

I don't play D&D in any version, so the answer there is that I don't

In HERO you can freely fire through other characters. They have the option of throwing themselves in the way, or perhaps burning an action on missile deflection if they have the ability.

In Age of Heroes things are much more complex and it depends on the Spell.Characteristic Assaults can be targeted freely, but direct combat spells need to worry about the target being in melee or people in the line of fire parrying the attack or being hit by mistake.