We're playing DnD 5E. They are all familiar with 3.5. I started playing DnD back in 79-80. My current batch of players, all younger folks used to fire-and-forget style of blow-the-fuck-outta-everything video games, are a far cry from the more clever game play of 15+ years ago.

Don't get me wrong, they can be fun at times, but the relentless shoot-first charge in style just gets fucking boring for me. I'm the one gming and I started with the style that I was used to. Sneaky shit that required thought, analysis, and strategy. Mysteries and puzzles to figure out. Plenty of shit to whack with your sword or turn into a greasy spot with a fireball too. But damn it, I remember when you really wanted to bring along that ten foot pole to probe piles of rags, tap on floors and walls, and stick into the strange hole in the wall. Using a smoky candle or torch to search for secret doors and hidden rooms. Perhaps the smoke might get sucked through a tiny crack or get blown away from one, depending upon the air currents/pressure.

They've ended up getting killed more often from their ineptitude and bull-headedness. They're a pretty good group of people (all early to mid 20's in age). I just wish they'd do a little more thinking. The smallest shit throws them for a loop and I've found myself making stuff super simple and obvious to have any chance of being accomplished. I'm not saying that they're unintelligent, just that they are not used to thinking about things all that much.

This isn't so much of a damning criticism as a whimper of mild frustration. I've suggested all sorts of things to try and stimulate the analytical and innovative thought processes, but so far it has not been successful.

Fucking video games. I blame video games.

Has anyone else really struggled with this? How did you solve it?
I'm not trying to get into a young vs. old gamer fight or edition wars or anything like that, I'm just searching for some suggestions.

How do I solve it?

No mercy for the weak.  Let them keep dying and dying and dying.

Eventually somebody will ask you "how do we stop dying all the time."

And if they don't, keep killing them.

Lol. Yeah this is basically what I've been doing. They typically show up for a session with at least one extra character ready to go.

I figure, screw it. They'll learn or they'll keep dropping.

It has just gotten rather monotonous for me as the GM.

I don't think it's video games... at least not as much as it might seem.
I've always seen Players who want to think things out, ask questions side by side with others who just aren't entertained by that sort of thing and want to fight.
I've been running a game for two brothers... so same amount of video games and such... and the older (by a year) one is uber-cautious about everything while the younger one is the embodiment of pure chaos.
The older one also assumes I will let them die if they do something stupid while the younger one is almost daring me to kill his PC.
That's why the older one's PC is currently carrying the other PC's brainstem home in a jar for punishment and possible reassignment. We'll see if he changes his tactics next time we game... but I'm assuming he's going to have to die a few more times before he figures out he oughtta listen to his brother when he tells him they need to make plans.

Not that I think a Player is wrong if he wants to fight things, seek out the action... but don't go in assuming a win if you don't take measures to put the odds in your favor.

I'm only half serious when I blame video games... maybe.

I don't have an equivalent big brother as in your group yet. I'm hoping one turns up.

I've talked to them all about careful game play, caution, the value of running away to fight another day. Sometimes yes you just have to start swinging your sword. But no character, in my games anyway, is immortal.

I'm not out to kill them off. I generally have a tendency to favour the player characters a bit. But damn. Stupid is as stupid does.

(shrugs)  It's easy to airily say "Stupid is as stupid does," but c'mon.  I don't think it's any more of a stretch for a player to say "I don't want to bother with tactics and I don't want to solve puzzles, I just want to hit things" than it is for a player to say "I don't want to bother with complex rules or spend a half hour on chargen, I just want to sit down and play the game" ... a sentiment expressed by more than one contributor to this thread.

If you've got a bunch of players who aren't into "careful and clever thought," it may well just be that that's not the style of game they want to play.  Blaming video games is facile: there were highly popular shoot-em-up video games ten years ago and twenty years ago and thirty years ago and FORTY years ago.

It's always a hell of a lot easier to find players who'll play the style you want to play than to try to force players to play in a style they don't want to play.

Having just finished playing Far Cry 3, where a large part of the gameplay is in careful reconnaissance and planning before infiltrating an outpost and taking it down... I don't think that video games are to blame.

I saw that attitude long before video games.

The difference is back then we used to say "Who the hell taught you to play, cretin?"

I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with that style of game play, I'm just saying that I would like to try and find a way to make it more interesting for me as a gamemaster for these players. I'm not crying badwrongfun or anything of that nature, nor am I intending to insult these folks, despite some of my wordplay. It's just a bit of frustration on my part.

I'm not exactly trying to force them to play my style, but I wouldn't mind a bit more thought involved instead of just hack and slash. A compromise, not a conversion. I'm in a bit of a player vacuum, where the overwhelming majority of available players are of this basic type.

I'm also talking DnD 5E. Not exactly rocket science in terms of complexity. I like it because it is simple. But simple system does not have to equal simple game play.

I'm not trying to stick my finger in anyone's ass regarding video games either. Not my thing. I think they're basically a waste of time for me.

I have no interest in getting into any video game +/- debate either.

I'm just looking for suggestions on what I can do to make the game more fun for me and to accomplish the goal of, and I know this is selfish and ridiculous of me, everyone having fun.

3e strongly rewarded that behavior.

XP and GP/loot is given out almost entirely based on kills. Everything else gets murky.


My biggest advice is to drop 'kill xp' entirely, and base advancement and general reward on various goals (either grabbed up as you go along or set ahead of time or some combo).

Either that or base it on old school XP = gp.

When players start realizing getting into every fight and charging in like idiots doesn't get them what they want, you should get better results. Particularly if you REALLY reward it -- the players intelligently plan on getting the Duke to back their chosen heir's bid for the crown, without any fighting or rolling? LOOT AND XP!


You get what you pay for.

Quote from: Wood Elf;811385It has just gotten rather monotonous for me as the GM.

The night we had a TPK to the Bag of Holding (the first time Gary Gygax ever introduced one), the night's gaming was over at that point, and Gary was pissed.

So make it clear it's monotonous.

"Next time you guys have a TPK the campaign is over."

Will and OG, those are not bad suggestions. Thank you.

Another, more difficult, path is to make them care about the characters. Although that may be cart before the horse.

But try to do... small stuff. The players are saving a farm. The players help build a bridge to several of the players' families' village. Make it rewarding, in various ways... connections, a thankful mayor, etc.

Again, you can't force it, but you can encourage it and see if the players are game.

I've used the humanitarian approach and they love making well thought out characters with rich backgrounds, but when the session starts, it is as if their brains drop into their shorts and all they want is to whack shit.

I incorporate quite a bit of character background into the game. I've always given xp for accomplishing story goals and non-combat related stuff. But maybe reducing xp for combat and placing a little more emphasis on goal xp would work.

The amount of character work they put in (3+ hours per character for 5E) versus how little thought they put into playing those characters is a strange paradox.

They're having a ball with the game and that's great.

I'm just watching as hook and hint go unnoticed. I'd just rather not railroad them with a big sign saying "Find adventure here!" or "You may wanna look for traps!".

I wonder if the Players might be of the mindset that "This is how D&D is supposed to be played!"... I've seen that before, approaching it as a skirmish wargame and nothing more... any other playstyle 'Isn't D&D'.
I've heard similar things in recent online games I've played in.