I've noticed over the last 10 years or so, more and more games require lots of little doodads in order to play. I have no idea what started this, but I really don't care for it. It makes the game mechanics interrupt actual play. And cleaning up afterwards more of a chore. I really hope this trend dies soon.

Depends on the game. In Marvel Saga, card play was smooth, elegant, and gave more than just X result. Instead cards had several things one card could be used for--dice lacked such information density.

Plus play was faster than many weird dice tricks I've see (Cthulhutech I am looking at you.)


Cards (1 deck) were easier to clean up after than scattered dice of a half-dozen people.

But SAGA is designed as a card game with no dice. Many newer games (WFRP3, D&D4, etc) require dice, cards, stones, etc.

I don't have a problem with say, using a little stack of chips to track your hit points or something like that, and I sometimes use card draws for dungeon/adventure design, but I think if a set of rules starts needing 'extras' to manage various mechanic it it may not be the game for me.

On the other hand, having a card with your spells or powers or whatever on them might be handy for beginners. I also sometimes like to write up items on cards to give them to players. It's also good for "who had the lantern again?" kind of questions.

Quote from: danbuter;414761I've noticed over the last 10 years or so, more and more games require lots of little doodads in order to play. I have no idea what started this, but I really don't care for it. It makes the game mechanics interrupt actual play. And cleaning up afterwards more of a chore. I really hope this trend dies soon.

I think that people just took a step away from the White-Wolf-ish "RPG is Art" kind of thinking, and want to play more of a "game" these days. People go about it in different ways, and some amongst them like to experiment with elements that add to the game dimension of the play. Like cards, chips, tokens and so on. It's nothing new: we had TORG with the cards that affected actual play not so long ago. It just returned as part of the present trends.

As for these elements interrupting actual play, I'm not so sure about that. They might, if the game's design sucks, and/or if handled badly at the game table. But they just as well, under better circumstances, might stimulate actual play and take it in exciting directions. Like the cards in the new Gamma World to me, for instance.

Quote from: danbuter;414765But SAGA is designed as a card game with no dice. Many newer games (WFRP3, D&D4, etc) require dice, cards, stones, etc.

Sometimes it's basically the designers being excited by the novelty of the cards or chips; usually RPGs aren't playtested enough to see the bloom go off the rose on things. In the case of, say, the D&D4 version of gamma world, obviously it's something you can sell. Of course, the difference is arguable vs. selling the "Gamma Player's Handbook 2."

Quote from: danbuter;414765But SAGA is designed as a card game with no dice. Many newer games (WFRP3, D&D4, etc) require dice, cards, stones, etc.

True enough. I didn't realize you were speaking of "one of each" in a game.

Kind of a pain to do that, actually. I agree with the above though--playtesting those things is underdone. I like cards and poker chips for my mecha game (western theme)
but I'm playtesting it, and playtesting it, and playtesting it, first.

I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.

Quote from: Benoist;414770I think that people just took a step away from the White-Wolf-ish "RPG is Art" kind of thinking, and want to play more of a "game" these days.

Then again, even White Wolf already attempted to combine their RPGs with a CCG element back in the old days of Changeling: The Dreaming.

Over the last 25 years or so I've noticed a lot of games use expensive metal miniatures that you actually have to paint. It makes the game mechanics interrupt actual play. And cleaning up afterwards more of a chore. I hope this trend dies soon.

Kidding aside, to me stones and cards and bits are one more thing I don't have to scribble down on a piece of paper.

Quote from: GrimGent;414783Then again, even White Wolf already attempted to combine their RPGs with a CCG element back in the old days of Changeling: The Dreaming.

Absolutely. Good point.

Don't read my "white wolf" too literally though. I was just speaking of tendencies in gaming more than I was pointing the finger at WW specifically.

Quote from: Benoist;414787Don't read my "white wolf" too literally though. I was just speaking of tendencies in gaming more than I was pointing the finger at WW specifically.

To be fair, tying the magic system in the first edition of CtD to those "Changeling Cantrip Cards" also failed miserably since pretty much everyone hated them, either as a blatant cash grab or just plain impractical.

I'll take cards, counters and whatever over writing notes, flipping through books to look something up, scratching ticks on paper and doing all manner of other things to track information the old way.  The bits method, if done right is faster, more informative and keeps the game flowing.  6+ Months of WFRP 3 and never once have we had a moment of 'umm hold on lemme look that up' or 'oh crap I forgot I had this feat' or 'who's turn is it now'.

Yeah, in my experience, Savage Worlds (with cards, dice and tokens, plus maps and minis) runs faster and smoother than just about anything else I've ran or played, except maybe Marvel SAGA.

Quote from: Halfjack;414782I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.

Yeah, that. Counters minimize bookkeeping for stuff that happens in session (not such a good choice for keeping track of things that persist after the end of a session), and there is also a visceral feel to getting and giving up tokens.

I think many games use cards that don't use them well. Some do, when they exploit a feature of the cards that dice don't have (Savage Worlds' initiative comes to mind.) But it seems like there have been a flux of small games that use cards and then make rules to engineer around the weaknesses of cards when dice would have been better.