I am looking over one of the individual adventures from Candlekeep Mysteries. It's called Book of the Raven. It's for 4-5 Level 3 characters It starts with the characters finding a spooky book with a treasure map in it. The treasure map leaded to a moldering, Ravenloft-esque Gothic chalet where the adventure takes place. It's not a terrible set-up for a one-shot adventure. As I go through it, I realize that there is something distinctly missing.
There's a ghost that whispers to the PCs but it's explicitly stated as being too weak to manifest or do any harm. There's a moth jump scare (lol wut). There's a poltergeist that tries to scare the characters but doesn't attack them. There's a possible fight if the characters insist on digging up graves for some reason. It's 1 CR1 and 2 CR0 creatures. That's the only actual fight in that part. There's a room where the dilapidated floor creaks and groans but it explicitly states that there's no danger of it collapsing. There are some wereravens who are...there. They try to spook the characters by imitating sounds. They don't actually do anything. If the players decide to dig up a specific child's grave, remove the body and then lie in it, they are transported to an area where there a couple of real fights. Why they would do this based on some vague stuff about evil whispers near the grave in a journal they may or may not find is beyond me. Even there, the encounters are trivially easy in the literal sense that the CR system defines them as trivial difficulty. They can only find out from the wereravens who are explicitly secretive and stay hidden as much as possible.
What's missing is any element of risk or danger. There's lots of spooky atmosphere and some Goth tragedy. There's no real danger at all. The poltergeist is just trying to scare them and is a minor annoyance. There's one fight that will only happen if they take a specific course of action. For the listed levels, it's a complete joke. It poses no real danger at all. There's not even the small risk that PCs will fall through the floor and take a little damage. The only real combat encounters are in an area that the PCs might well never see and they aren't hard or challenging at all. Oh and there's no treasure. I am going to have to rewrite this so it isn't just a boring waste of my player's time. What the hell is this? Do they think this is exciting or entertaining? Everything doesn't need to be mud and blood deadly but there's no challenge here at all.
I'm sure this is not the intent here, but an extremely capable writer could probably make an adventure that pranks the players by convincing them they're going through a haunted mansion only to reveal at the end that everything is completely harmless. You'd need a really good justification for why there's an adventure theme park in the setting, and you'd probably want it to be a puzzle dungeon so there is still some challenge, but it could work.
Not every adventure has to be danger and combat.
Also, the encounters they do have don't make any sense. If you dig up one of the graves, there's a scarecrow and two crawling hands in there instead of the body. Why are they there? Apparently, a hag put them there. Why? For the lulz? Maybe she has a youtube pranks channel?
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 05, 2024, 07:31:37 AMI'm sure this is not the intent here, but an extremely capable writer could probably make an adventure that pranks the players by convincing them they're going through a haunted mansion only to reveal at the end that everything is completely harmless. You'd need a really good justification for why there's an adventure theme park in the setting, and you'd probably want it to be a puzzle dungeon so there is still some challenge, but it could work.
It could theoretically work though it would be tough to pull off. That's not what they are doing here. There are no puzzles or trials beyond the need to do an obscure thing they have no real reason to do in order to access part of it.
Quote from: Omega on August 05, 2024, 07:37:26 AMNot every adventure has to be danger and combat.
If there's no element of risk or danger, it's not an adventure. It's storytime and a boring story at that.
Candlekeep was the dividing line between when WOTC had actual gamers trying to produce a decent product and when they got replace by DEI writers who don't give a shit about gameplay.
There's practically no gameplay in it. You find out the tragic but not very interesting story of the family that lived there and maybe talk to some wereravens. The more I read this, the less sense it all makes. It starts with a book that tells the story of a woman who was rescued by the Vistani and traveled with them for a while. There's some Vistani lore the PCs might learn in Candlekeep. None of this is at all relevant to anything in the adventure. None of it.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 05, 2024, 09:14:44 AMThere's practically no gameplay in it. You find out the tragic but not very interesting story of the family that lived there and maybe talk to some wereravens. The more I read this, the less sense it all makes. It starts with a book that tells the story of a woman who was rescued by the Vistani and traveled with them for a while. There's some Vistani lore the PCs might learn in Candlekeep. None of this is at all relevant to anything in the adventure. None of it.
Have you looked into the pool of authors WOTC has been using since 2021? They literally hired failed "young adult" authors, article writers for activists "art" magazines and websites, and at least one cookbook author. Not one of them has ever played D&D before getting hired.
Your description of the module sounds like a ride at Disneyland. Haunted House Lite.
Quote from: Ruprecht on August 05, 2024, 10:12:10 AMYour description of the module sounds like a ride at Disneyland. Haunted House Lite.
It's a lot like that.
An adventure need not have much combat, but DOES need something interesting going on that will be challenging for the players, whether it be combat, social interaction, or exploration challenges. This turkey seems to have a little spooky atmosphere and nothing else.
The into to this thing comes from a treasure map. If there is no actual treasure then there should be something significant to discover that will lead to treasure, or else the hook is entirely pointless.
When an author has no idea what a D&D adventure is all about, and how to construct one, they have no business having their lame attempt published, especially in a high profile release from the supposed leader in the TTRPG industry.
Greetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 02:16:36 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
In other words- you would add an adventure to the adventure.
Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 02:16:36 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I will probably ditch the wereravens and swap them out for something else. They don't really do anything anyway. I am not sure why they are even here except for some Ravenloft flavor.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 06, 2024, 12:43:13 AMQuote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 02:16:36 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I will probably ditch the wereravens and swap them out for something else. They don't really do anything anyway. I am not sure why they are even here except for some Ravenloft flavor.
Greetings!
My friend! I forgot all about the Wereravens!
I would remove them, and replace them with 1D3+2 Dire Black Waste Ravens. Such huge creatures are much more powerful than normal, mortal Ravens. Give them a savage bite attack, a fierce, and cruel intelligence, and a special attack of unleashing a breath-weapon gas attack, that envelops everything in a 15 or 20-foot radius. The special gas attack is a mutated wasteland gas that inflicts 2D6+Strength damage, and Save against Magic. Success causes the target to be immobilized for 1D3 Rounds from being horribly wracked with convulsions and pain. Failure results in the same 1D3 rounds of wracking, paralyzing pain, but also infects any creatures caught within the radius--and fail their saves--with a terrible, virulent disease--The Undeath Plague. Failed Characters transform over an incubation period of 1 week into being an Undead Creature.
Roll randomly from an appropriate Undead table, or select as deemed appropriate.
That will give arrogant Player Characters that fail something a little extra special to be thinking about their adventures to the Dark Chateau on the Hill.
I think Player Characters should sweat. They would soon embrace a genuine sense of fear for visiting my Dark Chateau on the Hill. Or at least embrace a genuine sense of respect for such an environment. *Laughing*
For an extra special ruthless touch, provide the evil Ravens with a wicked "Blessing of the Macabre Bell Tower". This ancient religious blessing, using the blood of virgin women trampled under the hooves of marauding Dark Champions, blesses the evil Ravens with the property on their beaks of having "Bite of the Hungry Shadow." Their beak attacks ignore all of their opponent's armour protection.
I would make it very likely that my players in this adventure would remember the evil, savage Ravens long after they left the Dark Chateau behind. Forever, whenever they encountered ravens again, a cloud of fear would sweep over them for sure. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 06, 2024, 12:43:13 AMQuote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 02:16:36 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I will probably ditch the wereravens and swap them out for something else. They don't really do anything anyway. I am not sure why they are even here except for some Ravenloft flavor.
Perhaps an evil kenku ninja clan?
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 06, 2024, 02:55:30 AMPerhaps an evil kenku ninja clan?
That's a possibility. Maybe some darklings. Possibly a shadow demon who makes its lair there. I am thinking about making the ghost an actual ghost. Maybe make the poltergeist actually hostile.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 06, 2024, 03:47:36 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on August 06, 2024, 02:55:30 AMPerhaps an evil kenku ninja clan?
That's a possibility. Maybe some darklings. Possibly a shadow demon who makes its lair there. I am thinking about making the ghost an actual ghost. Maybe make the poltergeist actually hostile.
I suggest keeping at least one or two of the encounters as less hostile ones, especially if you can add a problem-solving/puzzle aspect to it rather than another combat encounter.
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 06, 2024, 04:12:20 AMI suggest keeping at least one or two of the encounters as less hostile ones, especially if you can add a problem-solving/puzzle aspect to it rather than another combat encounter.
There's a part where you can lay the ghost to rest to get a buff. It has some stuff like that. It's just doesn't have any real danger or stakes.
I think this is how I will go. The wereravens serve no real purpose so I am going to eliminate them. The backstory of the family comes from the Baroness' journal. It says that she hid her first born daughter, who was born deformed, away in the attic and hints that she killed the child "as a mercy" at age 6. I am going to crank that dark aspect of the character up to 11. She was a cruel, jealous woman who murdered her own daughter to blot out what she saw as a stain on the family line. The Baron's beloved hound is portrayed as having died of old age. I am going to change that. The Baroness poisoned the poor dog because she was jealous of the affection her husband had for it. Her ghost will be the main antagonist. The dog ill appear as a shadow mastiff. It will be initially hostile seeing the PCs as intruders in its home. This will ramp up as time goes on until it attack. If they lay the baron to rest before that, it will no longer be hostile and could become an ally. The poltergeist will be the spirit of an abused girl and will lash out violently when the PCs intrude. It might be possible to mollify her but it will be difficult. I will probably just ditch the shadow crossing part entirely since it leads to a random mausoleum that has nothing to do with anything else in the adventure. There will be a mausoleum for the family behind the chalet.
It's weird how disjointed and disconnected this adventure is. It open with a journal and a bunch of lore about the Vistani that the PCs can learn. None of this is relevant to the adventure at all. If they go to the Shadowfell, they encounter the Harrn family masoleum. It has nothing to do with the chalet except that it occupies the equivalent space in the Shadowfell. It's completely disconnected from the rest of the adventure.
Quote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 02:16:36 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
A Purple Worm bursts through the floor, and swallows one of the players....
Quote from: Man at Arms on August 06, 2024, 06:38:41 PMQuote from: SHARK on August 05, 2024, 02:16:36 PMGreetings!
*Laughing* I would add a group of Mavka Witches, a dozen Vampires, and several dozen Ghouls to the adventure.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
A Purple Worm bursts through the floor, and swallows one of the players....
Greetings!
*Laughing* Hah! Yeah, Man at Arms! I love Purple Worms! The whole visual of a Player being swallowed and gulped down is always top-shelf for the drama!
Of course, you don't want the Player Group to be necessarily overwhelmed, right? This whole non-adventure though just seems so anemic and weak. It desperately needs more blood, fire, terror, and teeth!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
CR 15 might be a bit much for level 3 characters. I am using a CR3 creature that can do a swallow attack though. It from Empire of the Ghouls.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 06, 2024, 11:21:12 PMCR 15 might be a bit much for level 3 characters. I am using a CR3 creature that can do a swallow attack though. It from Empire of the Ghouls.
Greetings!
Right right. I forgot what the precise level of the adventure was. I'm not in favour of over-stacking the deck unfairly against the Player group. Have to stay reasonable.
But yes, Yosemitemike! You are tracking with me. Creatures with *swallow* attacks are just always fun and awesome!
I hope this much-modified adventure goes well for you and your group. I knew right when it was initially described, I was like, damn, this adventure really needs a huge work-over!
And yeah, you have commented in line with this before, I fully agree. The adventure/module writing at WOTC is pathetic. All of these so-called "game designers" and "writers"--it really reflects poorly when they have such little experience with actually playing the game--and whatever paltry experience they may have in DMing the game--their comprehension of the rules, the system, the entire adventure dynamics is just so weak. And it shows, in vivid failure, in so many of these adventures and modules.
I miss the days of a module thingy like NIGHT BELOW. That module, by Carl Sargent, as I recall, did not just satisfy my expectations as a good module to DM--his skills challenged me with inspiration that pushed me to "Bring My A Game." So much inspiration, awesome presentation, framing of cool options, and more. Always more for you as the DM to chew on and think about.
Not to laugh at the module and roll your eyes and wonder, "WTF?" You know, my friend?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
5E content post Mike Mearls is not designed for players let alone human beings. It's designed for story gamers who hate combat, hate Gygax, hate D&D and hate you and your family. They have little spend and can't afford to buy content from WotC.
These are the new players Wotc is supporting.
Another thing I noticed is that this adventure actually tried to do a horror movie jump scare twice. In one part, a harmless moth flies out when they investigate something. In another, it's a bird. This works to startle the audience in a horror movie because they can flash the thing on screen and insert a loud jump scare noise. How do they envision this going at the table? Am I supposed to slam a book down and squawk loudly at players to get that jump scare effect?
I'm curious, why try so hard to make this adventure work? Wouldn't it be easier to find a functional adventure and then put the desired parts from this into that?
Because I am running this on Roll20 as a one shot and this is what people signed up for.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 07, 2024, 03:55:54 AMAnother thing I noticed is that this adventure actually tried to do a horror movie jump scare twice. In one part, a harmless moth flies out when they investigate something. In another, it's a bird. This works to startle the audience in a horror movie because they can flash the thing on screen and insert a loud jump scare noise. How do they envision this going at the table? Am I supposed to slam a book down and squawk loudly at players to get that jump scare effect?
Please do that. It'd be hilarious.
In seriousness, I'd use those harmless scares as false flags. Instead of trying to jump scare the players with a moth or a bird, take a little time to build it up, describe how they hear a rushing of wind and a hideous fluttering coming from the chimney, and then when they've all prepared themselves for combat, a cloud of bats streams out and and briefly engulfs them before flying off. Maybe the bats do a couple points of damage from bites. Doesn't really matter. After you do that a few times you can get them either paranoid of an actual attack or complacent that one will never come. Then your third or fourth version of the "thing which flaps towards you out of the darkness" can be a Hunting Horror or whatever.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 07, 2024, 07:33:50 AMBecause I am running this on Roll20 as a one shot and this is what people signed up for.
Well then run this turkey as written. Give the audience what they signed up for. If they tell you it was super lame just say that is the adventure as written. Save your creative content for better adventures.
Sounds like a Scooby Doo episode. :-/
Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 07, 2024, 12:31:56 PMWell then run this turkey as written. Give the audience what they signed up for. If they tell you it was super lame just say that is the adventure as written. Save your creative content for better adventures.
I would rather run a game that I and the players actually enjoy. I am running a game here not making a statement.
Quote from: DocJones on August 07, 2024, 01:02:56 PMSounds like a Scooby Doo episode. :-/
Having run it two years ago, my impression is that it was supposed to start like a haunted house, then shift towards feeling like a Scooby Doo episode, probably peaking when the characters discover the people (wereravens) in the attic; but of course the PCs will realise these are friendlies, not kill them all, and get herded into the Shadowfell for the one big fight scene there.
But the whole backround/justification for the wereravens is weak, their logic is absolutely inconsistent, and it's just somebody imagining a "cool plot" with some animated video-game cutscenes and not building an interesting location or situation.
On Candlekeep in general: I had coworkers who wanted to play a game of disconnected 5e episodes with rotating DMs, and I said "Hey, WotC just published this book that might fit, and the reviews are mixed but we can work with it..." OMG it was such a flop. I mean, it lasted 21 sessions before I ended it, but playing through Candlekeep felt meaningless, from both sides of the DM's screen.
It has since worked so much better to do some light non-Forgotten Realms worldbuilding, create 20 pregens that don't make me roll my eyes at the "character builds", and drop leads to half a dozen OSR "starter adventures", and let the players for each series of sessions decide which characters to play and which rumours to chase.
Or what I'm running now, adapt Beyond the Wall lifepaths to 5e, again with light non-Forgotten Realms worldbuilding, take an ACKS minicampaign (Peaks & Valleys) and liberally season with other OSR adventures.
Quote from: Naburimannu on August 08, 2024, 05:02:11 AMBut the whole backround/justification for the wereravens is weak, their logic is absolutely inconsistent, and it's just somebody imagining a "cool plot" with some animated video-game cutscenes and not building an interesting location or situation.
Nothing about the wereravens makes any sense. Their whole mission is to steal evil relics from evil people and stash them where evil people can't find them. The founder made the map that the characters find in the hopes that someone reading the book would find it and follow it. If he was looking at the chalet as a place to stash relics, why would he want random treasure hunters to go there? Why leave a map to your potential hiding place where people will find it and indicate that it leads to treasure to get people to go out there? Does he want people to find the relics? The map leads the PCs straight to other members of the order and a relic they are trying to hide. Once the PCs get there, the wereravens assume they are here to get the relic or to use the Shadowfell crossing even though there's no reason they would believe either one of these things. The PCs will probably never realize the shadowfell crossing even exists let alone how to use it unless the wereravens tell them about it. It would be easy for the wereravens to simply avoid contact until the PCs go away but they don't. At some point, they approach the PCs even though there's no real reason for them to do this. It's obvious that someone is squatting here but unlikely the PCs will connect that to the ravens around the area. Why do the wereravens even care if the PCs use the Shadowfell crossing anyway? They mimic normal noises in an attempt to scare the PCs off but this is guaranteed to fail while making the PCs more suspicious.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 07, 2024, 11:15:15 PMQuote from: Exploderwizard on August 07, 2024, 12:31:56 PMWell then run this turkey as written. Give the audience what they signed up for. If they tell you it was super lame just say that is the adventure as written. Save your creative content for better adventures.
I would rather run a game that I and the players actually enjoy. I am running a game here not making a statement.
Then it is ok to let everyone know that you won't be running the advertised scenario because you want to run a GOOD adventure. This thing sounds so awful that you practically have to write your own anyway.
The description makes it sound like it might be a good encounter or two, but seriously lacking as a full-fledged adventure, especially for something like any form of D&D.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 05, 2024, 07:45:53 AMIf there's no element of risk or danger, it's not an adventure. It's storytime and a boring story at that.
You lack imagination.
@Yosimetemime,
Is there anything that you can salvage from this adventure? Is the map any good?
I suggest that you make up your own adventure there work it into this setting. Perhaps a pack of ghouls is digging up the bodies in the graveyard?
Quote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 12:32:15 AMYou lack imagination.
No, I just know what adventure means.
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 09, 2024, 02:54:35 AMQuote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 12:32:15 AMYou lack imagination.
No, I just know what adventure means.
Yeah, I'm with YosemiteMike on this. If there's no risk or no danger, it's not an adventure. Maybe an interesting story, but not an adventure in RPG terms.
Quote from: Aglondir on August 09, 2024, 01:16:58 PMQuote from: yosemitemike on August 09, 2024, 02:54:35 AMQuote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 12:32:15 AMYou lack imagination.
No, I just know what adventure means.
Yeah, I'm with YosemiteMike on this. If there's no risk or no danger, it's not an adventure. Maybe an interesting story, but not an adventure in RPG terms.
Ok... so you both lack imagination.
You can go off on an adventure and never once face a single battle or even risk past a "do you achieve what you set out to do or not?"
A better word than "danger" might be something like "stakes" or "adversity". Most of the time, you want there to be something your players want to either achieve or prevent, and some force which opposes or interferes with that goal.
Quote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 09:40:33 PMQuote from: Aglondir on August 09, 2024, 01:16:58 PMQuote from: yosemitemike on August 09, 2024, 02:54:35 AMQuote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 12:32:15 AMYou lack imagination.
No, I just know what adventure means.
Yeah, I'm with YosemiteMike on this. If there's no risk or no danger, it's not an adventure. Maybe an interesting story, but not an adventure in RPG terms.
Ok... so you both lack imagination.
You can go off on an adventure and never once face a single battle or even risk past a "do you achieve what you set out to do or not?"
If I go to the grocery store to get a gallon of milk and end up doing so and return with the milk, did I go an adventure?
Hell no. It was a simple task completion.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 09, 2024, 10:36:02 PMQuote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 09:40:33 PMQuote from: Aglondir on August 09, 2024, 01:16:58 PMQuote from: yosemitemike on August 09, 2024, 02:54:35 AMQuote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 12:32:15 AMYou lack imagination.
No, I just know what adventure means.
Yeah, I'm with YosemiteMike on this. If there's no risk or no danger, it's not an adventure. Maybe an interesting story, but not an adventure in RPG terms.
Ok... so you both lack imagination.
You can go off on an adventure and never once face a single battle or even risk past a "do you achieve what you set out to do or not?"
If I go to the grocery store to get a gallon of milk and end up doing so and return with the milk, did I go an adventure?
Hell no. It was a simple task completion.
Greetings!
When I was in the Marine Corps, a few of my buddies and I stopped at a grocery/drug store on our way to the beach. I think it was a CVS store. Went in, grabbed some smokes and pogey bait, and this cute Hispanic girl that was working there took care of our order. In the process, she started flirting with me, and she gave me her phone number.
Later that evening, after she got off from work, she and I were able to get together and hang out. She had a car, and she took me on an adventure! *Laughing*
Yes, even trips to the grocery store can be an adventure! *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
1.- Everything is a dungeon
2.- Everything is combat
What I mean is that you should build the adventure following those two precepts.
Except if you want to play Seattle starbucks baristas on their smoke break in the alley blabbering about gobbledygook.
Here, I'll give you a real threat that is subtle yet deadly, requiring the party to solve the mystery or otherwise become trapped. It's one I designed for a location in my Magic the Gathering using cards to "deck build" an adventure and Holder of Power's responses:
Have the house be alive (well yeah, it's haunted) and it APPORTATES your PCs' gear and tool resources until they party becomes dependent upon the house, and eventually fade and belong TO the house. So the house has its own stock of food, water, lighting, tools, bedding, stables, etc. And every time you use the house's resources you are cursed, fading just a bit from this reality, becoming transparent by pieces, until you are gone.
So as the party investigates it will apportate (teleport from one area to another) a tool or gear from each PC to *somewhere inconvenient* elsewhere on the manor grounds. This seems harmless because you can always use the house's resources. Until it starts to build up and you find you are physically fading away from this reality and dependent upon the house. You can use the Exhaustion Chart for charting fading levels without using all the penalties, or any other counter system will do.
It's a TPK on a timer with no heavy combat. The party *can* run away and fail the adventure, with mostly the loss of waterskins, rations, torches, candles, a few tools, mounts, pets, and bedrolls lost (no need to apportate their weapons, armor, or spellbooks at first). And the running away back to civilization will be hard because of the loss of gear. And the party will have to have the cursed removed if they wish to try again afresh (hence needing the resources of said Adventure level). It is a real threat, but not an explicit threat, it's an insidious threat.
If the house feels so cozy and the players are not on task or alert then they become another victim to the house. :evil:
Quote from: Omega on August 09, 2024, 09:40:33 PMOk... so you both lack imagination.
You can go off on an adventure and never once face a single battle or even risk past a "do you achieve what you set out to do or not?"
Oh fuck off you smug asshole.
Without any stakes or danger, it's just a haunted house tour and not even a scary or interesting one.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 09, 2024, 02:28:27 AMIs there anything that you can salvage from this adventure? Is the map any good?
I suggest that you make up your own adventure there work it into this setting. Perhaps a pack of ghouls is digging up the bodies in the graveyard?
Quote from: Aglondir on August 09, 2024, 01:16:58 PMYeah, I'm with YosemiteMike on this. If there's no risk or no danger, it's not an adventure. Maybe an interesting story, but not an adventure in RPG terms.
I've been away for family, but I just got back and looked this one up. In the anthology, it's a twelve-page mini-adventure for third-level characters, by veteran authors Christopher Perkins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Perkins_(game_designer)) and Kim Mohan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Mohan). Perkins published his first adventure at age 20 for Dungeon magazine #11 in 1988. Mohan is an old hand from TSR days with a ton of publications.
The climactic battle - through the portal in the child's grave - has a host of creatures that attack the characters in waves. Two gargoyles (CR2), followed by twelve ghouls (CR1) in waves of three, and a wight with a ring of jumping (CR3); plus three warhorse skeletons (CR 1/2) that guard the treasure.
yosemitemike calls this "trivially easy", but it seems like a tough fight to me - depending on who the PCs are and how it is run. The ghouls in particular can be devastating if the PCs are unlucky with saving throws.
Reflecting on this a little more...
It is something of a fake-out that there are almost no threats within the main house. Instead, there's one big threat that the PCs get warned against. And still, the more I think about it, that fight is damn tough for 3rd level. I can't picture calling it trivially easy.
Two other disagreements:
1) The chalet is not a place to stash evil relics. It's the meeting place for the order and they stash the items elsewhere, though it does say "They occasionally stash magic items of evil repute here until better hiding places can be found for them."
2) The wereravens are suspicious and will assume bad intent at first, but they aren't completely paranoid and are willing to communicate and cooperate with good-aligned adventurers -- and might even let a PC join their order.
In general, the house has mostly mysteries rather than being full of monsters to kill. The real threat is through the portal.
Quote from: jhkim on August 12, 2024, 11:14:00 AMThe climactic battle - through the portal in the child's grave - has a host of creatures that attack the characters in waves. Two gargoyles (CR2), followed by twelve ghouls (CR1) in waves of three, and a wight with a ring of jumping (CR3); plus three warhorse skeletons (CR 1/2) that guard the treasure.
IME enemy waves are not great encounter design for a tabletop RPG. Is there a gimmick to the combat arena or something to let the players strategize around the oncoming waves, or is this just a room that enemies turn up in on a timer?
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 13, 2024, 07:01:25 PMQuote from: jhkim on August 12, 2024, 11:14:00 AMThe climactic battle - through the portal in the child's grave - has a host of creatures that attack the characters in waves. Two gargoyles (CR2), followed by twelve ghouls (CR1) in waves of three, and a wight with a ring of jumping (CR3); plus three warhorse skeletons (CR 1/2) that guard the treasure.
IME enemy waves are not great encounter design for a tabletop RPG. Is there a gimmick to the combat arena or something to let the players strategize around the oncoming waves, or is this just a room that enemies turn up in on a timer?
The wereravens could potentially give the PCs warnings about what is on the other side, but the module gives no details about what information they have. If I were running it, I'd have the wereravens give detailed (but not fully complete) information on what they will face based on legends they've heard.
As for the setup - it's an open graveyard rather than a room. The gargoyles will spot the characters first and fly to attack (first wave). Then the ghouls swarm the characters as they come up from the scattered graves they are in (second wave). Then the wight boss comes out of the mausoleum and starts shooting arrows at the PCs (third wave).
It's not at all tactical, but there is a certain logic to the waves.
To be fair, most dungeons would be impossible if all the monsters worked together and used good tactics against the PCs.
Quote from: jhkim on August 13, 2024, 08:08:54 PMAs for the setup - it's an open graveyard rather than a room. The gargoyles will spot the characters first and fly to attack (first wave). Then the ghouls swarm the characters as they come up from the scattered graves they are in (second wave). Then the wight boss comes out of the mausoleum and starts shooting arrows at the PCs (third wave).
Subjectively it sounds pretty underwhelming for the set piece final fight of an adventure. Serviceable but uninspired. I haven't played 5e in years, but I'd guess that's likely to be a pretty long fight without being exciting or memorable.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 13, 2024, 10:14:51 PMQuote from: jhkim on August 13, 2024, 08:08:54 PMAs for the setup - it's an open graveyard rather than a room. The gargoyles will spot the characters first and fly to attack (first wave). Then the ghouls swarm the characters as they come up from the scattered graves they are in (second wave). Then the wight boss comes out of the mausoleum and starts shooting arrows at the PCs (third wave).
Subjectively it sounds pretty underwhelming for the set piece final fight of an adventure. Serviceable but uninspired. I haven't played 5e in years, but I'd guess that's likely to be a pretty long fight without being exciting or memorable.
It seems to me there is a pattern of making false shit up just to throw at Candlekeep Mysteries, I assume because of general WotC hate. Pundit brought his claims of there being combat wheelchairs in it and every dungeon being wheelchair-accessible. yosemitemike started this thread claiming the fight was "trivially easy" which is flatly false.
I'm not saying this adventure is a masterpiece, but upon rereading it, it is solid. I don't agree with your assessment of the fight. Ghouls can be frustrating because of the swinginess of paralysis, but that also makes the fight challenging and exciting when PCs go down. And the wight shooting and jumping from the roof of the mausoleum is fun and cinematic - and could be particularly tough if the PCs are more melee focused. I'd probably alter a few things if I ran it, but I think the core is pretty good.
---
In general, I think Candlekeep Mysteries overall is much better than the crappy early 5E adventures like _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ and _Into the Abyss_. I like the core rules of 5E, but their early adventures sucked. When I ran 5E, I tended to adapt older modules from AD&D or 3E rather than use any of the 5E adventures.
Candlekeep still has plenty of flaws, but I think the anthology approach made for more tightly designed and focused adventures.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 07, 2024, 09:55:21 AMQuote from: yosemitemike on August 07, 2024, 03:55:54 AMAnother thing I noticed is that this adventure actually tried to do a horror movie jump scare twice. In one part, a harmless moth flies out when they investigate something. In another, it's a bird. This works to startle the audience in a horror movie because they can flash the thing on screen and insert a loud jump scare noise. How do they envision this going at the table? Am I supposed to slam a book down and squawk loudly at players to get that jump scare effect?
Please do that. It'd be hilarious.
In seriousness, I'd use those harmless scares as false flags. Instead of trying to jump scare the players with a moth or a bird, take a little time to build it up, describe how they hear a rushing of wind and a hideous fluttering coming from the chimney, and then when they've all prepared themselves for combat, a cloud of bats streams out and and briefly engulfs them before flying off. Maybe the bats do a couple points of damage from bites. Doesn't really matter. After you do that a few times you can get them either paranoid of an actual attack or complacent that one will never come. Then your third or fourth version of the "thing which flaps towards you out of the darkness" can be a Hunting Horror or whatever.
I've done this with great effect several times. The trick is to always describe things this way. Describe what they sense before they know what it is, as much as possible. A couple of times I've even got a character to waste a major spell preparing for what they thought it was. Nothing like a few false flags to drag players attention into the world as it is, instead of always trying to game it.
Of course, for that to work, it has to be mixed in with some real adventure, not this drivel.
Quote from: jhkim on August 14, 2024, 02:18:37 AMIn general, I think Candlekeep Mysteries overall is much better than the crappy early 5E adventures like _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ ...
Well, that's an opinion. Stupid, flawed, false, and retarded. But it's an opinion.
Honestly, I hope you're getting paid by someone to post here. Because, in order to humiliate myself, I'd at least require a large sum of money. I can't imagine making a fool of myself (even with statements like) that for free...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 14, 2024, 06:28:06 PMQuote from: jhkim on August 14, 2024, 02:18:37 AMIn general, I think Candlekeep Mysteries overall is much better than the crappy early 5E adventures like _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ ...
Well, that's an opinion. Stupid, flawed, false, and retarded. But it's an opinion.
General creative assessment is a subjective opinion, sure.
My main beef is using objective falsehoods in claims about Candlekeep Mysteries. Claiming that it has rules for the combat wheelchair - like Pundit did - is objectively wrong. There are no wheelchairs of any kind in the book, and none of the dungeons are wheelchair accessible.
Likewise, claiming that a 3rd level fight against 2 gargoyles, 12 ghouls, and a wight is "trivially easy" is objectively wrong - which is at the core of this thread.
You can go on with ad hominem attacks against me, but it seems rather telling to use clearly false claims in the critique.
Quote from: jhkim on August 14, 2024, 08:11:56 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on August 14, 2024, 06:28:06 PMQuote from: jhkim on August 14, 2024, 02:18:37 AMIn general, I think Candlekeep Mysteries overall is much better than the crappy early 5E adventures like _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ ...
Well, that's an opinion. Stupid, flawed, false, and retarded. But it's an opinion.
General creative assessment is a subjective opinion, sure.
My main beef is using objective falsehoods in claims about Candlekeep Mysteries. Claiming that it has rules for the combat wheelchair - like Pundit did - is objectively wrong. There are no wheelchairs of any kind in the book, and none of the dungeons are wheelchair accessible.
Likewise, claiming that a 3rd level fight against 2 gargoyles, 12 ghouls, and a wight is "trivially easy" is objectively wrong - which is at the core of this thread.
You can go on with ad hominem attacks against me, but it seems rather telling to use clearly false claims in the critique.
Greetings!
Jhkim, why do you think so many people here blast Candlekeep Mysteries? You don't see people blasting Annihilation, Saltmarsh, Tiamat, the Dragons module, Icewind Dale, and so on.
Personally, I like most of the modules before Candlekeep Mysteries. WOTC's quality drops off a fucking cliff with Candlekeep Mysteries, and onwards.
That seems to me firmly based on objective or at least solid and persuasive standards and criteria. It doesn't have anything to do with your personal politics.
I do find it odd though, that you somehow are always on the other side of the fence in all of these discussions about WOTC, and their writing and module presentation. It is entirely predictable by now. Regardless of what anyone says, whatever their critique of WOTC--you always manage to stride forward to always "White Knight" for WOTC.
Beyond that, I have always been a fan of early 5E D&D, and yet, everyone here blasts you for being a "White Knight" for WOTC. No one would ever accuse me of being a "White Knight" for WOTC. Why do you think that you are targeted so ruthlessly?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I think it's important to remember that some friction and difference of viewpoint is good in an internet community. You sharpen your thoughts against the whetstone of another's contradiction.
That said, jhkim brings up a solid argument. There absolutely is combat in Book of the Raven and there is an encounter that poses a challenge. However, I don't think yosemitemike can be completely discounted when he says that said encounter can be missed entirely.
Ultimately, it's up to the DM/Party if they even learn about the shadow crossing in the first place meaning, as written, there is a decent chance a group of players won't even get to experience it.
Personally, I don't like that the climactic battle of the book is nearly painted as optional content, such that only players that are practically begging for it will see it. A party will likely be warned of the danger ahead of time and having a teleport to a wave-based encounter just feels very artificial compared to the ambient unease of the rest of the module.
It almost seems like it was thrown in as a relief for players who absolutely have got to hit something every session. But it is there, and we all have to admit that.
I must admit I'm not a published adventure writer so I could well be wrong.
Quote from: SHARK on August 14, 2024, 09:37:09 PMI do find it odd though, that you somehow are always on the other side of the fence in all of these discussions about WOTC, and their writing and module presentation. It is entirely predictable by now. Regardless of what anyone says, whatever their critique of WOTC--you always manage to stride forward to always "White Knight" for WOTC.
That's a pretty shitty prediction, SHARK, because I just bad-mouthed several WOTC books -- naming _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ and _Out of the Abyss_ (which I own) and I'll add _Horde of the Dragon Queen_ which I played through. I also dislike _Tasha's Cauldron_ and hate _Fizban's Treasury of Dragons_.
In earlier WotC work, I was lukewarm to the 3E rules -- but _The Sunless Citadel_ is my favorite introductory adventure of any edition. So there are some positives.
About D&D books more broadly - I generally haven't liked the 1980s tournament modules like _Egg of the Phoenix_ and _Ghost Tower of Inverness_, as they felt awkward and artificial to me to create the point-scoring. Of the 1E era, my favorites are _Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan_, _Ravenloft_, _Ravenloft II_, and _Dwellers of the Forbidden City_. I never played 2E and kept using 1E material for the most part, but I strongly disliked later linear-story modules for the Ravenloft demi-plane (as opposed to the first two modules).
What I've haven't observed is that my preference is predictable by politics. There are RPG authors whose politics I strongly disagree with, but they write great stuff, and authors whose politics match mine but whose works I hate.
Quote from: jhkim on August 14, 2024, 02:18:37 AMyosemitemike started this thread claiming the fight was "trivially easy" which is flatly false.
The CR system defines these encounters as of trivial difficulty you disingenuous weasel.
This isn't intended as a shot at either side of the argument, but I thought it was generally agreed that the CR system was essentially busted and unreliable?
Quote from: yosemitemike on August 15, 2024, 07:40:04 AMQuote from: jhkim on August 14, 2024, 02:18:37 AMyosemitemike started this thread claiming the fight was "trivially easy" which is flatly false.
The CR system defines these encounters as of trivial difficulty you disingenuous weasel.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 15, 2024, 09:18:19 AMThis isn't intended as a shot at either side of the argument, but I thought it was generally agreed that the CR system was essentially busted and unreliable?
The CR system is absolutely unreliable - and it has warnings of such. However, even it isn't that wrong. The thresholds for a party of four 3rd-level characters are: Easy (300XP), Medium (600XP), Hard (1100XP), Lethal (1600XP).
Multiple monsters get a multiplier for how many there are. The multiplier is x1.5 for two monsters, and x3 for 11 to 14 monsters. So the monsters in this encounter are:
2 gargoyles (CR2) -> 450XP x 1.5 = 675
12 ghouls (CR1) -> 200XP x 3 = 600
1 wight (CR3) -> 700XP x 1 = 700
By the book, any of these on their own are already Medium difficulty. The three together, even in waves, are clearly more difficult.
Oh, I pulled out my books to correct yosemitemike's "disingenuous weasel" numbers, but I see JHKim already started. I think that insofar as yosemitemike wants to be using the CR system here, the numbers are even bigger than JHKim reported:
From DMG page 82, we've already done steps 1 and 2 to find the party's XP thresholds. Then we:
3. Total the monsters' XP
4. Modify total XP for multimple monsters
2 gargoyles are CR 2, 450 xp each, means total 900, with the pair they're 1350xp - that's HARD.
Reading the text of the encounter the wight is not necessarily a separate wave: "Drovath emerges from his crypt to join the ghouls in battle." So 12 x 200 + 700 = 3100 xp, x 3 = far into the LETHAL zone.
Far enough into the LETHAL zone to actually seriously threaten the party of 5e characters, if we're going to mock CR appropriately. The ghouls have 22hp each, your PCs don't have a lot of AOE damage, and about 30% of hits from the ghouls are going to cause paralysis on top of depleting a third of the PC's hit points. My current players just hit third level and I expect this encounter would wipe all six PCs out unless they made really good use of terrain & tactics that aren't spelled out in the adventure. Only 1 attack in 4 would hit the paladin, but there are too many enemies and the space is too open for him to keep them off the squishies, and this is somewhere where the barbarian's rage resistance wouldn't help tank once he's paralysed.
Having spent months going through half the book, roughly half as a player and half as a DM, I think the adventures in Candlekeep Mysteries are generally lousy - but stop inventing fake shit to tar it with. Stick to truth.
I have come to the thread just to snort at the CR system.
*snort*
Quote from: Naburimannu on August 16, 2024, 05:21:42 AMHaving spent months going through half the book, roughly half as a player and half as a DM, I think the adventures in Candlekeep Mysteries are generally lousy - but stop inventing fake shit to tar it with. Stick to truth.
Naburimannu, can you give any more details about the scenarios you've tried? Were any particularly worse or better?
So far, I've only run one of the scenarios in the Candlekeep anthology. From browsing through it, it seemed mixed but interesting, which is better than the early 5E modules I tried, but that's a low bar because I hated those modules. When I've used published modules using 5E, I've mostly adapted modules from earlier editions. (I listed some of the ones I liked in reply #57 (https://www.therpgsite.com/index.php?msg=1289442).)
In general, I think mystery scenarios are particularly difficult to write - especially with magic in the mix and not knowing the players. So the anthology theme of mysteries made it rough for writers.
We played 26 2.5ish-hour online sessions over most of 2022. The plan was that I DM'd the even adventures + added a bunch of supplemental material, and a colleague would run the odd adventures, but I ended up doing a bit more than half the work. Some of these complaints may be curmudgeonly; I think what I learned is that I don't like disconnected episodic adventures unless the worldbuilding is good and the connections between them are strong. Candlekeep was a fairly pointless backdrop and did nothing to motivate or engage the party or connect things.
CM 1 - A perfectly adequate artificial bounded starter adventure.
CM 2 - I don't know how to run a city adventure with no city? It very much assumes the players will follow the rails and have no other interests, that the city is just an arbitrary backdrop.
So I mixed in overland travel to the city (flavour from original the Baldur's Gate computer games) & a lot of material from Murder in Baldur's Gate. That filled out the city nicely but the tone of the circa-2014 Murder adventure fell flat with some of my players who didn't want to deal with class struggle, racism, etc.
I also found the adventure a bit overly self-contained; like many in Candlekeep Mysteries it's so episodic that it feels disconnected unless you add a lot to it.
CM 3 - discussed before
CM 4 - Crawl through the ruined village & mines. Some of the timeline needs willing suspension of disbelief but it works. Reminded me how much I dislike the current FR worldbuilding.
CM 5 - Excessively modern magic spa. Some people are OK with that but spoils my verisimilitude.
CM 6 - Hook is arbitrary but not the most illogical of the series. You either handwave the travel to the site or do a bunch of extra prep. Combat underwhelming if the DM forgets so many enemies have magic resistance. (But that doesn't help much in 5e against direct-damage spells, anyway.)
CM 7 - Handwave travel to Waterdeep, engage with one or two details there, then do a village investigation and a dungeoncrawl.
CM 8 - skipped
CM 9 - skipped
CM 10 - This felt like a reasonable conclusion. Again, it's a travel-heavy adventure where that's all handwaved, expected to be a total railroad where the players go to a certain set of locations in a certain order with no alternatives or agency.