Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI think you do. And I think people's preference of other games over yours offends you.
!i!

Have you ever seen me argue with Koltar over whether Gurps is the best game in the world? actually..someone send Koltar over here. Ask him yourself.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't care what anyone else likes or doesn't like. It doesn't matter.  

QuoteI won't speak for Balbinus, but I believe you've misinterpreted his comment.

Either he's right, or I'm right. In 4 months we will know the truth. Don't you want to find out who was right?

Quote from: Abyssal MawYour'e terrified. all of you.

And you're a born-again zealot.  Maybe we're not so much terrified as we are just creeped out.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd you're a born-again zealot.  Maybe we're not so much terrified as we are just creeped out.

!i!

Come on, pussy, take the bet.

Quote from: Abyssal MawCome on, pussy, take the bet.

Why would I?  I like the hobby.  I'm not invested in just one game. Why would I feel the pressure to sulk and fume like you did with 2e, just because other people like a game that I don't? Why would I resent other people enjoying a game that I may not like, like you did with 2e? Why would I deny myself the enjoyment of RPGs just to satisfy your urge to bully others inot admitting that your chosen game is tops?

Again, that's some fucked up shit.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhy would I?  I like the hobby.  I'm not invested in just one game. Why would I feel the pressure to sulk and fume like you did with 2e, just because other people like a game that I don't? Why would I resent other people enjoying a game that I may not like, like you did with 2e? Why would I deny myself the enjoyment of RPGs just to satisfy your urge to bully others inot admitting that your chosen game is tops?

Again, that's some fucked up shit.

!i!

Hahahaa! This is great. So.. you aren't taking the bet? I mean, it's no big deal either way. Either you believe in what you say or you don't. I believe in what I am saying. I'm just checking to see if anyone else does, and cares enough to prove it.

C'mon man, let's not do this.  I mean, Jim, myself, jrients, Ian, Sett, Stuart--we aren't The People, we're just Some People.  And I think so long as we realize Some People Won't Like This Game, and Some People Will (with neither position qualifying anyone as fucktard), we can still keep friendly relations on all this.

Of course D&D 4e will sell like a million copies.  For many people, it is the hobby.  I'm personally not interested in that--sure, I hope it does well, but what I've heard thus far just doesn't line up with my (and apparently some other people's) idea of what D&D should be, as a game, an RPG, or an IP.  And I'm more than willing to admit I might not be the target audience or even in touch with What The Hobby Needs, but that doesn't make it any less valid a feeling.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstC'mon man, let's not do this.  I mean, Jim, myself, jrients, Ian, Sett, Stuart--we aren't The People, we're just Some People.  And I think so long as we realize Some People Won't Like This Game, and Some People Will (with neither position qualifying anyone as fucktard), we can still keep friendly relations on all this.

Of course D&D 4e will sell like a million copies.  For many people, it is the hobby.  I'm personally not interested in that--sure, I hope it does well, but what I've heard thus far just doesn't line up with my (and apparently some other people's) idea of what D&D should be, as a game, an RPG, or an IP.  And I'm more than willing to admit I might not be the target audience or even in touch with What The Hobby needs, but that doesn't make it any less valid a feeling.

People absolutely have the right NOT to like anything they want. Heck, they can outright hate it if they want. And I don't think anyone needs a reason or a justification, either. This goes for anything. Ice cream flavors. RPGs. Comic books. Music.

For example, Shadowrun doesn't line up with my expectations of what a cyberpunk game is about..


But you know what? I somehow (I'm not sure how I manage this) manage to not criticise Shadowrun, which holds no interest for me. Nor do I impugn the motivations or interest of the players. I wish the players and fans of Shadowrun well. I liked Earthdawn, and wished Shadowrun had been more like ED.. but it wasn't and I accept that.

Are you saying this kind of honest behavior is impossible?

Quote from: Abyssal MawAre you saying this kind of honest behavior is impossible?

Expecting others to live up to your own personal standards for yourself is retarded, you dipshit.*

* Just making a point. I think your last tactic of "bet me your future happiness" is dipshitted, but don't think you're one in general.

Yeah, but you gotta think, you weren't (so far as I know) a long-time Earthdawn or Shadowrun player with decades under your belt waiting for a new edition of a game that's been pretty damned important in your gaming experience.  And you haven't found that edition to be a serious disconnect from what you're used to or expecting.  And those other games aren't the proverbial 800 pound gorilla to boot.

Folks are gonna discuss 4e, because its the next development in a game many of us have followed since we're a kid.  There's going to be an intellectual or emotional investment there, and folks are gonna talk about it.  Some vent, some hold out hope, some are resentful at feeling left out in the cold, and some have honest-to-goodness issues with 4e.  

Saying you think a game is like some other form of media or borrows something from X shouldn't be construed as a personal attack.  Saying all 2e players are elitist, min-maxing fatbeards or all 4e adherents are LCD anime fanbois would be.  Let's make the distinction.  I still think we can find a ground here that allows for some criticism AND praise of 4e without everyone devolving things into a pissing contest, right?

-If 4e succeeds, awesome.  More gamers, which means I can convert them to whatever system I want later.

-If 4e bombs, well, shit.  The biggest entry point into the hobby just went tits-up.

-If Zack dislikes 4e, that doesn't mean he dislikes Maw.

-If Zack dislikes 4e, that doesn't mean he is a total fucktard.  It might be he is a fucktard for many other reasons, just not that one.

-If Zack is insulting someone based on their enjoyment of 4e, then Zack is a shithead.

-If Maw is insulting someone based on their non-enjoyment of 4e, well, replace Zack with Maw.

Now, I'm not saying we've done or are doing those things, but those aside, what's left to argue about, aside from the relative merits/elements of 4e as we see them?  And that's hardly a cause for animosity, right?

By all means, let's discuss a game that's important (or has been important) to so many of us.  Let's debate, discuss, expound, pontificate, whatever.  But let's leave it on the field.  Games are fair game--hell, it's theRPGsite, everything is.  But let's keep it on the game, and leave it all on the field.

Quote from: James McMurrayExpecting others to live up to your own personal standards for yourself is retarded, you dipshit.*

* Just making a point. I think your last tactic of "bet me your future happiness" is dipshitted, but don't think you're one in general.

Of course it's dipshitted. It' a sucker bet. Nobody in their right mind would take it. It also (hopefully) makes you stop and actually consider what you are saying.

That's why I suggested it.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstFolks are gonna discuss 4e, because its the next development in a game many of us have followed since we're a kid.  There's going to be an intellectual or emotional investment there, and folks are gonna talk about it.  Some vent, some hold out hope, some are resentful at feeling left out in the cold, and some have honest-to-goodness issues with 4e.  .

That's fair enough and none of us are having the best day in the world for obvious reasons.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThat's fair enough and none of us are having the best day in the world for obvious reasons.

You're damned right there.  It's been a bad day all around.  Shake on it?

Quote from: Zachary The FirstYou're damned right there.  It's been a bad day all around.  Shake on it?

Yeah, I apologize.

That's good. Now who would like to nominate Balbinus for the RPGPundit Hyperbole Award of The Week for "4e is the gun/axe of the roleplaying world"? He' a guy that has so very few chances to win this award I really wouldn't want to see him get passed over for this doozy. :haw:

P.S. You aren't allowed to nominate or vote AM.

I think we should have a 4e Hyperbole Award, given weekly for the person (pro, anti, or other) who furnishes the best (worst) example in criticism/claim in pursuit of 4e discussion.  Between here, ENWorld, WotC's board, and the blogosphere, we'd have quite the competition.