Hi all,
I'm a lurker that finally decided to register. I'm hoping to get some feedback because I'm struggling to decide on a system. Right now, I have a lot of rpg books but can't decide on which one to play. I finally have my wife and kids (older) ready to play a 2-3 session adventure.
A lot of you have really great ideas and posts, so I thought I'd list out the three games I'm leaning towards and get your feedback.
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
Genesys RPG
Pros: Freedom and unexpected twists
Cons: No journey system and could overwhelm them
The One Ring 2e
Pros: journey system and interesting combat (protection rolls, etc)
Cons: it seems like a lot of bookkeeping for fiddly stuff, can get depressing/bland at times
Out of those three what do you suggest? Something different? I wish I could squeeze them all together.
Of those, I only have experience with OSE, which is just Basic D&D. Basic D&D is outstanding.
How many players? Anything around Basic D&D is a great way to start, but you really need to lean into the game the way it is expected to be played:
- Embrace that lethal comes with players not thinking about what the characters do, but as a GM make sure you take their plans into account.
- Make sure they roll up their own characters, because they'll probably do it several times.
- Players get a lot smarter with the second and third characters, usually.
- Depending on the number of players, you likely need plenty of opportunities to hire help.
So that first "adventure" is not so much an adventure as a series of short expeditions.
Personally, I would do something like that first, even if you know that you'll migrate to something later where the characters are more capable out of the gate. It's a good environment to get the hang of roleplaying. Just don't sell as something that it's not, make sure everyone knows it's an experiment, and then after you do that, all of you will have a lot more information on whether to keep going with it or try something else.
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
I currently play OSE. I'm the DM, and there are 3 players. I let each player run 2 PCs, for an adventuring party of 6. This has worked very well for us, as a party of 6 PCs will be much stronger than a party of 3. And if a PC dies, the sting is lessened a bit because the player already has another character to run.
The lethality is still there, but the odds aren't so overwhelming.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 20, 2023, 05:03:06 PM
How many players? Anything around Basic D&D is a great way to start, but you really need to lean into the game the way it is expected to be played:
- Embrace that lethal comes with players not thinking about what the characters do, but as a GM make sure you take their plans into account.
- Make sure they roll up their own characters, because they'll probably do it several times.
- Players get a lot smarter with the second and third characters, usually.
- Depending on the number of players, you likely need plenty of opportunities to hire help.
So that first "adventure" is not so much an adventure as a series of short expeditions.
Personally, I would do something like that first, even if you know that you'll migrate to something later where the characters are more capable out of the gate. It's a good environment to get the hang of roleplaying. Just don't sell as something that it's not, make sure everyone knows it's an experiment, and then after you do that, all of you will have a lot more information on whether to keep going with it or try something else.
Me and four players. I agree. It will be a few expeditions. I'd like to try and incorporate Doom of the Savage Kings in there as well, at some point.
Quote from: Crusader X on January 20, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
I currently play OSE. I'm the DM, and there are 3 players. I let each player run 2 PCs, for an adventuring party of 6. This has worked very well for us, as a party of 6 PCs will be much stronger than a party of 3. And if a PC dies, the sting is lessened a bit because the player already has another character to run.
The lethality is still there, but the odds aren't so overwhelming.
Do your players ever feel like combat is boring? How do you handle traveling. I like the journey being a large part of the adventure.
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 05:59:48 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on January 20, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
I currently play OSE. I'm the DM, and there are 3 players. I let each player run 2 PCs, for an adventuring party of 6. This has worked very well for us, as a party of 6 PCs will be much stronger than a party of 3. And if a PC dies, the sting is lessened a bit because the player already has another character to run.
The lethality is still there, but the odds aren't so overwhelming.
Do your players ever feel like combat is boring? How do you handle traveling. I like the journey being a large part of the adventure.
If they don't like combat much; then perhaps they would enjoy solving puzzles, disarming traps, and solving mysteries?
I can't comment on Genesys, but of the other two, I'd say OSE, hands down. I'm a huge Tolkien fan but I find TOR 2e to be worthless trash as a game system. The books look nice, but beyond that it's basically a board game masquerading as a roleplaying game. Tons of unnecessary rolling and gimmicky mechanics that add nothing but complexity, yet they try to sell it as a rules-light system. Plus, they really try to shoehorn you into replicating the books. Personally, while I like he idea of gaming in Middle Earth, I don't want to just replay Lord of the Rings or be some side character in the "real" story. But that's how they frame the game.
In addition to be easier to learn and far superior mechanically, OSE has some published adventures that are very family friendly. Depending upon your conversion skills, you could convert TOR to OSE. I converted some old MERP stuff to OSE and it was a snap. But I know both systems well.
I'd personally go for something like Beyond the Wall. Very flavourful backdrop with very tight yet simple mechanics and can be played with very little prep if that's your thing.
It's based of the old D&D mechanics but it's very streamlined and adds 'knacks' for characters which essentially gives them character skills and talents.
The landscape basically builds itself as you play.
From what I know of those, I think OSE is probably the best to tweak to get the game where you want it.
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 05:59:48 PM
Do your players ever feel like combat is boring? How do you handle traveling. I like the journey being a large part of the adventure.
I've heard The One Ring is really good for this. Haven't played it myself so I can't confirm though
Quote from: Mishihari on January 20, 2023, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 05:59:48 PM
Do your players ever feel like combat is boring? How do you handle traveling. I like the journey being a large part of the adventure.
I've heard The One Ring is really good for this. Haven't played it myself so I can't confirm though
That's a myth, unless making a bunch of dice rolls instead of roleplaying is fun for you. The One Ring has a bunch of predetermined roles that the party has to assume, then the GM rolls a bunch of dice, consults some generic tables and tells them the outcome. It's the most antithetical to roleplaying mechanic I've seen. It's roll playing instead of roleplaying. That's a large part of why the game feels like a board game, which is what the lead designer specializes in creating. And this is true in every phase (literally) of the game. Go home for the winter? Roll a few dice and we'll tell you what happened. Audience with your patron? Roll some dice and we'll tell you how it went. Want to sing a song? Roll some dice to see if people like it. It's just, ugh.....
But you could cut about 75% of the mechanics out and the game would probably play alright. Or steal the lore and setting info and just use a better system.
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 05:59:48 PM
Do your players ever feel like combat is boring?
We've never really had that problem. The lethality of B/X actually helps to make things more exciting and nerve-wracking for us.
QuoteHow do you handle traveling. I like the journey being a large part of the adventure.
Our games mainly focus on dungeon crawls. Traveling isn't a huge part of our games, but we still try to incorporate the B/X wilderness rules on occasion. But its just not the focus for us.
If your wife and kids are big JRRT fans, then run One Ring.
OSE is good if you want to play OSR D&D.
Don't know Genesys.
Also, ask them what genre / game type they are interested in playing because there's 1001 free RPGs on DriveThruRPG that cater to a multitude of tastes.
Here's my fave free RPG: MAZES & MINOTAURS (Greek mythic RPG)
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/ (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/)
Here's my 2nd fave free RPG: EXEMPLARS & EIDOLONS
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons)
Here's my not-OSR kinda-GURPS-ish fave free RPG: WARRIOR, ROGUE & MAGE
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage
M&M and WRM both have a huge stack of free supplements too.
Quote from: Crusader X on January 20, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
I currently play OSE. I'm the DM, and there are 3 players. I let each player run 2 PCs, for an adventuring party of 6. This has worked very well for us, as a party of 6 PCs will be much stronger than a party of 3. And if a PC dies, the sting is lessened a bit because the player already has another character to run.
The lethality is still there, but the odds aren't so overwhelming.
I am a fan of players running 2 PC's; especially, if there are only one or two players.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 20, 2023, 11:01:44 PM
I am a fan of players running 2 PC's; especially, if there are only one or two players.
I pretty much always do that, as long as the players want to. The advantage is that everyone can still play if 1) you need to split the party, or 2) one of your characters dies or is incapacitated.
I'm familiar with Genesys... while I like it, I wouldn't recommend it for the first game for your wife and kids.
Go OSE. It's easy to learn, easy to run - tons of support you can crib from other d20 material.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 20, 2023, 11:01:44 PM
Quote from: Crusader X on January 20, 2023, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
I currently play OSE. I'm the DM, and there are 3 players. I let each player run 2 PCs, for an adventuring party of 6. This has worked very well for us, as a party of 6 PCs will be much stronger than a party of 3. And if a PC dies, the sting is lessened a bit because the player already has another character to run.
The lethality is still there, but the odds aren't so overwhelming.
I am a fan of players running 2 PC's; especially, if there are only one or two players.
We pretty much always run 2 PCs each; sometimes even 3 if we're playing OSE. Our group seldom exceeds 4 players and we like to have parties of 6-8 characters. But with OSE this is pretty simple to do.
Out of the three, OSE is the only one I have much familiarity with. It's not my favorite game, but I would recommend it as a starter, on the grounds that once players have a basic comfort level with OSR mechanics, it's an extremely easy switch to any of dozens of other games built on the same skeleton. If your players do get bored of it, you could easily move on to Dungeon Crawl Classics or Hyperborea or even something like Pathfinder without having to relearn the core mechanics.
If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.
If you would like other recommendations for good starter RPGS, I'll throw in recommendations for Index Card RPG or EZd6: Two games with extremely simple, yet versatile core mechanics. I think you could teach a beginner to play either game in under half an hour. They also do not have leveling up, which simplifies matters for the player. People have registered concerns about the longevity of both games. I think that of the two, Index Card RPG probably has a lot more miles in it (due to its extensive item lists, multiple settings, and still having some class progression), but both games are quite cheap for hard copies off of DrivethruRPG. I will also say of Index Card RPG that it is set up in a manner which makes it incredibly easy to run and play, and the book contains a lot of very good advice for new DMs.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/366519/Index-Card-RPG-Master-Edition
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook
There's also Basic Fantasy RPG, which is much like OSE, but with ascending AC and possibly the cheapest books in the industry. You could probably buy your whole table copies of the core rulebook for less than the cost of a single OSE book.
https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Fantasy-Role-Playing-Game-3rd/dp/1503334945/ref=sr_1_1?crid=96MCDRKB2JF3&keywords=basic+fantasy+role-playing+game+3rd+edition&qid=1674283392&sprefix=basic+fanta%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1
EDIT: Turns out that OSE has BAB/Ascending AC rules in it as well, so you wouldn't have to homebrew it.
OSE is questionable if you didn't start out with B/X D&D. Sure you could jump in new, but I don't think it teaches you to play the way Mentzer Basic did (and it's a copy of Moldvay/Cook Basic). Genesys is based on the system used for Star Wars Edge of the Empire. I've heard from otherwise non-gamers that EotE played very well, but haven't played it myself.
You listed not having a journey system as a con, which is surprising to me. Is that something you actually think you want, or is it just because TOR has it that you think it might be important?
OSE hands down IMO.
Like is already said here, it's Basic DnD cleaned up and some features added from ADnD if you want to use that.
I've been running OSE for some people at work, some of which didn't know what a Tabletop RPG is at all and had never heard of DnD, but were curious to play.
They picked it up very easily and it was super easy to explain and run as a DM for grognards and Newbies alike and they're all still playing and having fun.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 21, 2023, 01:49:11 AM
If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.
Not necessarily. This is very dependent on how the players think. In my experience, about 1/3 to 1/2 of players find their first RPG experience easier to grasp if you give them the numbers written down in a table. This is true even if the system is one that doesn't use the matrix. Now, out of those players, quite a few will, when shown a formula later, decide that is the better way to go. Now having absorbed how to play and having a sense of how it all fits together from using the matrix. Whereas some players, if you start them with the formula, will either freeze up or get so focused on it that it inhibits their ability to grasp the essentials of: GM describes, asks what you do, you state what you do, GM decides what mechanics are relevant to what you do, then GM narrates. Which is a much more important lesson to get out of the way early, and much harder to fix later if you start off wrong.
By all means, since the OP knows all the players well, if they are all quite happy with numbers and formulas and such, yeah, consider your advice.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 21, 2023, 01:49:11 AM
If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.
OSE has both THACO and Ascending AC with Attack bonuses built right into the game.
Quote from: danskmacabre on January 21, 2023, 08:38:01 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 21, 2023, 01:49:11 AM
If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.
OSE has both THACO and Ascending AC with Attack bonuses built right into the game.
You're right. I had forgotten about that. Will amend my original comment.
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table. It's the same level of math. But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table. It's the same level of math. But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.
It's not just THAC0. If you have magical armor, the positive modifier lowers your armor class. But if you have high Dexterity, the negative modifier lowers your armor class. Your negative modifier to dexterity also improves your saving throw, but the positive modifier from magical armor doesn't (but from a ring or amulet of protection does). So you've got a bunch of instances with inconsistent display of modifiers, where you don't know if higher is better or worse, or a positive number is good or bad, combined with other inconsistencies.
Throw in some DMs not wanting to reveal the AC, so rather than subtracting the AC from your THAC0 to determine if you hit, you have to roll, calculate what you would hit and report that to the DM, who then lets you know if you actually hit. That means part of the calculation that is just as easy is missing.
Quote from: migo on January 21, 2023, 07:39:42 AM
OSE is questionable if you didn't start out with B/X D&D. Sure you could jump in new, but I don't think it teaches you to play the way Mentzer Basic did (and it's a copy of Moldvay/Cook Basic). Genesys is based on the system used for Star Wars Edge of the Empire. I've heard from otherwise non-gamers that EotE played very well, but haven't played it myself.
You listed not having a journey system as a con, which is surprising to me. Is that something you actually think you want, or is it just because TOR has it that you think it might be important?
I tend to prefer overland adventures with players looking at maps, planning treks, and experiences mini adventures along the way. This is what draws me to ToR some. Trip planning and encounters along the way. I like the ToR in theory but it seems bland in play.
It seems like OSE/bx is the way to go.
Pen, if you like watching livestreams, THAC0 Tuesday (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQsb1vnKkI) is a good series where they play OSE and run The Keep on the Borderlands module. Some of the sessions involve wilderness travel as well, so you might find the videos interesting.
Quote from: migo on January 21, 2023, 11:37:48 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table. It's the same level of math. But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.
It's not just THAC0. If you have magical armor, the positive modifier lowers your armor class. But if you have high Dexterity, the negative modifier lowers your armor class. Your negative modifier to dexterity also improves your saving throw, but the positive modifier from magical armor doesn't (but from a ring or amulet of protection does). So you've got a bunch of instances with inconsistent display of modifiers, where you don't know if higher is better or worse, or a positive number is good or bad, combined with other inconsistencies.
Throw in some DMs not wanting to reveal the AC, so rather than subtracting the AC from your THAC0 to determine if you hit, you have to roll, calculate what you would hit and report that to the DM, who then lets you know if you actually hit. That means part of the calculation that is just as easy is missing.
Whatever. We were all around 12 when we started playing and had no problem with it whatsoever. Never met someone who was baffled by the way it worked back in the day, despite the seeming contradictions.
I think it's simply a matter of pretty much everything in life being dumbed down these days. As a teacher (in college no less) I've had to switch to keeping my grades out of 500 or 1000 because students can't comprehend weighted percentages anymore. Even then I get questions from students who can't calculate their grades or figure out what they might need on a given assignment to raise their grade or whatever.
Quote from: Crusader X on January 21, 2023, 12:28:56 PM
Pen, if you like watching livestreams, THAC0 Tuesday (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BQsb1vnKkI) is a good series where they play OSE and run The Keep on the Borderlands module. Some of the sessions involve wilderness travel as well, so you might find the videos interesting.
I'll definitely check that stream out. Thanks!!!
Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table. It's the same level of math. But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.
Thaco has been proven over time, to be less popular with the average person. It is a dying concept.
You are totally right; about there being a great number of cashiers, who can't make change for a dollar. It is laughably unbelievable, but true.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 21, 2023, 01:42:16 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table. It's the same level of math. But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.
Thaco has been proven over time, to be less popular with the average person. It is a dying concept.
You are totally right; about there being a great number of cashiers, who can't make change for a dollar. It is laughably unbelievable, but true.
I totally get why ascending AC is more popular and it's true that I'm an absolute grognard in life in general, but the argument that descending AC is somehow difficult to grasp because that math is hard is ridiculous.
Plus, as someone noted, that stuff is usually written on the character sheet anyhow and really only the DM needs to keep track of that stuff. I never reveal monster AC. I just tell the players to roll and I'll let them know if they've hit. Most DMs I've played with do the same thing.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table. It's the same level of math. But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.
Comfort with THAC0 is far more a function of experience than it is of intelligence. As you said, both systems are essentially kindergarten-level arithmetic. THAC0 is the same math with an extra step, and most people find addition faster to do in their heads than subtraction.
My comment was specifically in the context of new players. For people who are experienced and invested in the hobby, I consider the two systems pretty much interchangeable, but for total newbies it's best to remove as many things as possible that might distract them from the roleplaying.
THAC0 isn't hard, but it is unnecessary. I see no upside to using it. So, I don't.
But, back to the original post. First time RPGs.
Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool is specifically written with kids in mind. There isn't any complex math. It's main feature is to start out everything as a D4, upgrading to bigger sized dice. Also, many talents exist for each class that add more dice to a roll, such as Slayer that adds a dice if you use a two handed melee weapon, or Soldier that adds a dice if you use a hammer or axe. All rolls are an attribute dice + skill dice to beat a target number, even magic. So a Dwarf soldier with Slayer talent and a 2-handed axe rolls a D8 for his strength, a D6 for melee skill, a D4 for using an axe, and a D4 for using a 2-handed weapon. Roll all that, pick the best 2 dice results, add, and see if you can equal or better a 5 to hit a skeleton.
https://biggeekemporium.com/product/dungeons-delvers-dice-pool/ (https://biggeekemporium.com/product/dungeons-delvers-dice-pool/)
OSE "Old School Essentials", offers a relatively simple gaming system; within a single handy sized hardback, that travels with you easily. You have two versions to select from: Classic Fantasy, which is Early 1980s BX alone; or Advanced Fantasy, with additional options adapted from Late 1970s AD&D. Either way, buy just one book; and you'll have everything you'll ever need, except dice and adventures.
Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.
Genesys RPG
Pros: Freedom and unexpected twists
Cons: No journey system and could overwhelm them
The One Ring 2e
Pros: journey system and interesting combat (protection rolls, etc)
Cons: it seems like a lot of bookkeeping for fiddly stuff, can get depressing/bland at times
Out of those I'd probably go with OSE.