Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1145447Been there, done that. I decided that I was either going to do 5E in my next campaign or AD&D. Not 2E. Just AD&D.

I picked 5E with gritty rules and given the two new attractive tools in the DM tool box, bound accuracy and advantage/disadvantage, I made things work like they used to: difficult.

What doesn't work:

One: Remember that sinking feeling you got when you had to Save vs. Death. Not some hit points. Or being stunned. But bitting it, right there at the roll of the dice? Everything in 5E goes against that mechanic. Still working on that one in such a way as the players would agree "yup, harsh but works."

Two: Monsters. The entire concept of a CR system for "balanced encounters" was never a thing in AD&D. Sure, you had Hit Dice this, and Hit Dice that, but not more often than not, encounter balance was a matter of not doing something stupid like fighting to the bitter end, negotiating tactics, hit and run, treachery and other fun things because some wanker low hit dice monster had some ability to just wreck your trash. It took me awhile to learn to old-school 5E CR system. I've been recently started blogging about it starting here: The Misunderstood World of 5E Game Balance, Part 1.

You don't HAVE to use CR. I never "balance against the party" in my 5e games. Whatever is in the world, is in the world. If the players run into a dragon at level 1, then that's their call to make.

However, it's still useful just to give you, the DM, a good idea of what kind of creature you're using.

There are some monsters that have special abilities that are CLOSE to saves vs death. The catoblepas from Volo's Guide to Monsters is a CR 5, does 14d8 damage on a failed save, and kills instantly at 0. Against a level 5 party, that's almost guaranteed to put them to 0 and thus kill them. It is a rare thing to see something like that though.

I'm not sure if I want to bring back instant death though. Instant death via HIGH DAMAGE, sure. But just instant death? Eh... I think that would be one "old school"-ism most people wouldn't go for unless they were leaping off a cliff or something instead of getting hit by a monster. Then again as long as you can sell your players on it, anything is possible.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145452You don't HAVE to use CR. I never "balance against the party" in my 5e games. Whatever is in the world, is in the world. If the players run into a dragon at level 1, then that's their call to make.

However, it's still useful just to give you, the DM, a good idea of what kind of creature you're using.

There are some monsters that have special abilities that are CLOSE to saves vs death. The catoblepas from Volo's Guide to Monsters is a CR 5, does 14d8 damage on a failed save, and kills instantly at 0. Against a level 5 party, that's almost guaranteed to put them to 0 and thus kill them. It is a rare thing to see something like that though.

I'm not sure if I want to bring back instant death though. Instant death via HIGH DAMAGE, sure. But just instant death? Eh... I think that would be one "old school"-ism most people wouldn't go for unless they were leaping off a cliff or something instead of getting hit by a monster. Then again as long as you can sell your players on it, anything is possible.

Yeah... I'm not too sure I want to bring back old school insta death either. I want the feeling of old school insta death.

I've been accused of over think--thinking back to hose AD&D insta-deaths, nobody rage quit. So if we all just soldiered on, why not use the basic concept as is?

I dunno. I do know it's a key difference between AD&D and 5E insofar as the old school feeling.

I've designed an insta-death monster in 5E, but only NPCs below its CR. If it hits an NPC lower than itself, it kills them.

There is an old school AD&D adventure I want to convert to the current edition. It has some custom monsters. How hard would the conversion be?

The adventure comes with sample pre-generated characters. How hard would those be to convert to the current edition?

When I run this adventure, I want it to feel as old school as I can get away with. Because it's based on a swords & sorcery property.

Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1145456Yeah... I'm not too sure I want to bring back old school insta death either. I want the feeling of old school insta death.

I've been accused of over think--thinking back to hose AD&D insta-deaths, nobody rage quit. So if we all just soldiered on, why not use the basic concept as is?

I dunno. I do know it's a key difference between AD&D and 5E insofar as the old school feeling.

I've designed an insta-death monster in 5E, but only NPCs below its CR. If it hits an NPC lower than itself, it kills them.

This is where the problem loops back to the time it takes to do character creation.  If you are playing old rules, then 5-10 minutes later, the player with a dead character has a replacement in hand--maybe 15 if the player is slow.  That's going to be difficult to do in 5E unless you do some prepackaged options that characters roll to get. It's not impossible, but for me that is one of the places where I'm either running real old school or I'm not.  If I am, then rapid, partially random character generation is a must.  On the other hand, if I'm looking to have more involved intricate characters, then lots of death is off the menu, and thus that part of old school with it.  Doesn't mean that I can't use other parts of old school for the fun they bring, but it is not the same thing.

Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1145456I've been accused of over think--thinking back to hose AD&D insta-deaths, nobody rage quit. So if we all just soldiered on, why not use the basic concept as is?

Exactly.

I have run an open game table on and off for some years. Not a single player quit as a result of that - in fact, on any character death, the player's response is usually, "wow, you can actually die in this..."
"Yeah sorry man sometimes that's how the dice go."
"No, that's fine. Actually... it feels good!"

Players want a challenge, and it's not a challenge unless you can fail. Like the schools giving children participation ribbons which the children almost invariably toss aside, many people underestimate gamers' willingness to fail.

Let the players rise up to old school.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1145458There is an old school AD&D adventure I want to convert to the current edition. It has some custom monsters. How hard would the conversion be?

The adventure comes with sample pre-generated characters. How hard would those be to convert to the current edition?

When I run this adventure, I want it to feel as old school as I can get away with. Because it's based on a swords & sorcery property.

In a lot of cases you can port them over almost as-is, if it's 1e or 2e. 5e is pretty loose number wise.

WOTC put out a pdf to help with conversions but it pays to have some system experience to gut check it. But it's a good start: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DnD_Conversions_1.0.pdf

If you want, you can PM me the monsters and I can tell you what they'd be like. Sometimes it's a question of dropping certain abilities that are too finicky for 5e and folding them into existing mechanics, or knowing what kind of thing the same concept is represented by in 5e.

You just need to know the expected range for things in 5e. DC 5 = very easy, DC 10 = normal, DC 15 = difficult, DC 20 = very hard, DC 25 = almost unheard of, DC 30 = legendary.

You also have to grasp the concept of bounded accuracy. 5e deliberately drops higher numbers and bonuses and sticks with play being in a specific range, mathwise. Almost all the AC of monsters in the game is between 10-20. A legendary dragon might have 22 AC. Bonuses mean more because they don't come up much. Difficulty scales instead by more hit points and more damage.

The idea behind this is so that weak level 1 creatures are still a threat even when you're like level 15 (if they mob you).

Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1145456Yeah... I'm not too sure I want to bring back old school insta death either. I want the feeling of old school insta death.

I've been accused of over think--thinking back to hose AD&D insta-deaths, nobody rage quit. So if we all just soldiered on, why not use the basic concept as is?

I dunno. I do know it's a key difference between AD&D and 5E insofar as the old school feeling.

I've designed an insta-death monster in 5E, but only NPCs below its CR. If it hits an NPC lower than itself, it kills them.

I am also trying to gear my 5E more towards old schoolisms but I'm not resurrecting Save or Die anytime soon. what I like is progressive Saving Throws.  

Example: You are bit by a giant viper. You take 1d6 damage from the bite and must save vs. poison or take 1d8 damage 1d4 turns later. You continue to make saves every hour as your character circles down the drain taking 2X (then 3X, 4X, etc.) damage each failure.

The only way to stop the damage is a healer or healing kit administered with a check. That can give you advantage on your next save and stop the hp loss. But the damage is done and accompanies a level of exhaustion. It can only be healed with a long rest which can not not be done in dangerous environs.

That way your level 2 or 3 character didn't save or die but its gonna suck none the less.

Ohhh and having Lesser Restoration that can cure disease or poison available to a level 3 cleric in 5E should be marked out with one of those fat markers in your PHB if you want anything resembling old school.

Didn't that spell exist for clerics in the past too?

I would make it take a bit more than a healing kit because they're super cheap and available normally so players will have a mountain of them. Maybe if they required Medicine skill proficiency?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1145461This is where the problem loops back to the time it takes to do character creation.  If you are playing old rules, then 5-10 minutes later, the player with a dead character has a replacement in hand--maybe 15 if the player is slow.  That's going to be difficult to do in 5E unless you do some prepackaged options that characters roll to get. It's not impossible, but for me that is one of the places where I'm either running real old school or I'm not.  If I am, then rapid, partially random character generation is a must.  On the other hand, if I'm looking to have more involved intricate characters, then lots of death is off the menu, and thus that part of old school with it.  Doesn't mean that I can't use other parts of old school for the fun they bring, but it is not the same thing.

Yeah, good point. Someone died, everybody took a break, came back with a beer for the victim, and he had his new PC ready to go.

If a PC dies in old school games, do you have them make a new one and rejoin right there? Or do you want until the next session?

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;1145469I am also trying to gear my 5E more towards old schoolisms but I'm not resurrecting Save or Die anytime soon. what I like is progressive Saving Throws.  

Example: You are bit by a giant viper. You take 1d6 damage from the bite and must save vs. poison or take 1d8 damage 1d4 turns later. You continue to make saves every hour as your character circles down the drain taking 2X (then 3X, 4X, etc.) damage each failure.

The only way to stop the damage is a healer or healing kit administered with a check. That can give you advantage on your next save and stop the hp loss. But the damage is done and accompanies a level of exhaustion. It can only be healed with a long rest which can not not be done in dangerous environs.

That way your level 2 or 3 character didn't save or die but its gonna suck none the less.

Ohhh and having Lesser Restoration that can cure disease or poison available to a level 3 cleric in 5E should be marked out with one of those fat markers in your PHB if you want anything resembling old school.

I like me some progressive saving throws.

One thing 5E has allowed me to do is to drop PCs to 0 hitpoints via a non-combat encounter. There is a mechanic in our mega-module where the PCs will drop to 0 and start making death saves. There's an NPC that can jump in (only the first time it happens), assuming the players don't try to gank him because they're in murderhobo mode.

You would be amazed (probably not) at how fast players start paying attention to non-combat detail once that happens.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145473If a PC dies in old school games, do you have them make a new one and rejoin right there? Or do you want until the next session?

When I run old school games and a PC dies, the player gets to come in as soon as their new PC is ready. I'll come up with some relatively outlandish or unlikely reason for a new PC to show up. Its a game. I don't care about realism. A person at my table gets to play no matter what is happening in-game.

I'm mostly in the "You can't do 5E old school camp"

Mainly because you really have to REALLY shake the tree to get it to work. You end up changing the game so much that what you end up with is not recongnizable. I'd rather start at something closer to old school if that is what I want. If I want old-school, I will run an old-school system. If I want 5E, I will run 5E.

OSE and Basic Fantasy both have online SRD's which makes them easily accessible. So does ACKS, for that matter. You can play these games with online resources completely for free. There is no excuse for accessibility. The issue is with presentation.

The way I dealt with presentation, was with honesty. When I pitch an old school game, I straight out explain that the game will be deadly, challenging, will require caution and more thought. Maybe I will lose somebody (but if its not their thing, I'd rather they not participate), but mostly my experience has been positive. I've run old school style games for players who were experienced old school players, modern 4e/5e players, and completely brand new players. It is possible to bring the old school experience to anyone who is genuinely interested in it. It is possible for these player to enjoy the old-school experience, even though they may prefer modern games. That's fine with me.

IF I were to do an old-school 5E. I'd do the following:

Basic PDF only. Only what is available in the Basic PDF is available. So... Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard. Life, Champion, Thief, Evoker. Dwarf, Elf, Halflng, Human.

Roll stats 4d6 drop lowest in order: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma.

Pick: Class/Race/Background.
Limitations: Elf: Fighter or Wizard only. Dwarf: Fighter or Thief only. Halfling: Fighter or Thief only. Human: Any

No Skills. Proficiency bonus applies to anything normally associated with your Race/Class/Background

No cantrips. Light becomes a 1st level spell, that can be used offensively to blind. Review other cantrips and upgrade if you want.

Death at 0 hp. Or if you want to be nice, grant a single death save.


If I want an 'Advanced' Old-school experience...

Keep Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard, but redesign other classes into subclasses. Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian become subclasses of fighter (slot the key abilities of those classes into the subclass ability slots). Clerics get the domains from the PHB. Bard, Assassin, Acrobat become subclasses of Rogue. Wizards get their schools of magic.

So a player who wants to be a ranger can (at 3rd level) take the 'Ranger' subclass at 3rd level in place of Champion.

How would light blind offensively? Wouldn't that make it not useful for just lighting the way like a torch.

Good suggestions. Hmm, I wouldn't be so concerned with making sure that every single player option is the same, so much as making sure the gameplay is similar. ie, no easy food, or easy light, or easy carrying of weight, but if they want to play a half orc monk, who cares.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145480How would light blind offensively? Wouldn't that make it not useful for just lighting the way like a torch.

Good suggestions. Hmm, I wouldn't be so concerned with making sure that every single player option is the same, so much as making sure the gameplay is similar. ie, no easy food, or easy light, or easy carrying of weight, but if they want to play a half orc monk, who cares.

Cast it in their eyes... grant a saving throw to avoid blinding.

Yeah, that is also important and a good point. Implement an old-school style dungeon exploration procedure. OSE is probably the most accessible source for such. Actual dungeon turns, where you have to decide what actions you take during your turn. Each turn depletes light source, calls for potential wandering monsters, and so on. This also requires a DM to enforce Encumbrance (or implement a better system... I like the ACKS stone system, myself) and enforce the rules for Darkvison.

I suppose you can open up any of the class/race options as long as you follow the other points. My suggestion was to create a 5E that was similar to B/X. If you want to go further and allow more classes/races. Shouldn't be a problem. I think 'no cantrips' is an important part of capturing the feel, so Warlocks may be complicated (as they rely on Eldritch Blast as their primary offense).

Maybe allow Warlocks Eldritch Blast as a class feature? You can see, where I'm coming from, though... this starts transforming the game way beyond the scope it was intended for.