Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;11451872) Everyone else already plays 5e so I don't need to teach them anything.

And that's the difference. In older editions of D&D there was very little to teach. The complexity arose in play, and as you - slowly - levelled up. It's chess vs Advanced Squad Leader.

QuoteAll of its material is online and easy to access, in a convenient format (at least for online play). It's way easier to have people making their PCs just use online SRD type resources and be able to filter, browse spells from all the books, look at source materials, etc. I have no idea what I would do in the same situation if I was running 2e. I don't even know how many books there are or what counts.

Forget 2e.

In AD&D1e and earlier, players didn't need a copy of the book. There were few or no choices to make, it was almost entirely random roll.

I can tell you right now how to make a character in AD&D1e.

1. roll 3d6 in order: strength, intelligence, dexterity, constitution, wisdom, charisma
2. now choose between fighter (minimum strength 9), magic-user (int 9+), cleric (wis 9+) and thief (dex 9+). If you don't qualify for any, return to #1
3. now roll for hit points: a fighter gets 1d10, a magic-user 1d4, a cleric 1d8 and a thief 1d6. If you have Con 15+ you may get a bit more
4. if you are a thief, write down the following skills (that's the most complex one). If you're a magic-user you begin with four spells: read magic, one random offensive, one random defensive, and one random miscellaneous spell, roll 1d10 3 times and tell me the result and I'll tell you the spell. If you're a cleric you can use any of the spells at 1st level, here's a list.
5. now roll for starting money and buy some gear. Here's the price list. No, your magic-user cannot have plate mail and a greatsword, or rather you can, but you don't know how to use it. Try a robe, stand in the back and try to look harmless.
6. don't give your character a name yet, we don't want to know their name until they survive their first combat encounter.

The thief is the most time-consuming because they have the most to write down, after that the cleric because they have to write down the names of the first level spells. Otherwise the only choices the player is making is class and gear, and those will typically be restricted since you probably won't be 9+ in all four, and you'll have limited funds. That's it.

If character generation is random then players don't have to make choices, which means they don't need to weigh things up and don't need to look anything up.

You guys need to play an old school game before you try to run one.

edit: Whoops, posted it in the wrong old school 5e thread.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1145175I suspect the answer depends on how one defines "old school".

Is 5e too different a game compared to TSR/OSR editions to be played as "old school"?

Would the changes necessary be too onerous on the 5e players?

What would be the advantage of running 5e "old school" versus just running TSR edition or an OSR game?

I've actually just started an Old School 5e Forgotten Realms game set in Damara 1359 DR - the 1e era. We've only had one fight so far, but game has been great fun (3rd session tonight). My 1e based house rules - training to level, 1 week long rest, and side based init seem like the biggest ones, along with not using Feats.

HOUSE RULES

Long Rest:  a full Long Rest normally takes 1 week, and restores all Hit Dice. Typical upkeep/subsistence cost is 1gp/day, 7gp/week. Sleeping overnight may restore some hit points, typically 1 per level, or 2 per level for a full day's rest.
Typically, adventurers go on a 'delve' of up to 6-8 encounters in one day, then return to their base to rest and recuperate for about a week, before setting out again.

Short Rests take 1 hour, but short rest ability recovery is capped at 3 times per day.

Training to level up takes place during a Long Rest, as normal, and requires a mentor, who will typically charge around 150gp, or service in lieu of payment. Self-training without a mentor takes 4 weeks, with upkeep & self-training costs of 50gp. Until a character can train, their XP is capped at the minimum needed for the second level up - eg a level 1 character's XP total caps at 900 until trained. A level 2 character's XP total caps at 2700 until trained.

Side Based Initiative & Turns: GM rolls a d6, on a 4-6 the player's side goes first. Characters with Advantage on Initiative get a second d6 roll chance to act before the enemy at the start of combat. One side (or some members of one side) may automatically go first depending on circumstances, eg they succeeded at a Deception, Stealth or Sleight of Hand check, or opponents are initially Surprised. Player character actions are resolved in order of posting. Each side's turn is treated as roughly simultaneous - eg start-of-turn effects such as continuing damage and death saves are treated as simultaneous on each side. In case of one-vs-one duels the standard initiative system is used.

Attacks from the Rear normally have Advantage (GM's judgement). A character may always change their facing on their turn as part of movement, or as a Reaction on the enemy's turn. A character with Speed = 0 cannot change their facing.

Quickdraw Weapons: A light blade (dagger, scimitar, shortsword) in a scabbard, or a javelin or dart in a quiver (maximum 4), may be drawn as part of the attack action, without using an object interaction.

Territory Development
When characters clear and rule territory around a stronghold, they may receive a tax income of 5-9 silver pieces per inhabitant per month. Fighters, and some other classes, may also have a body of Followers come to serve them.

NPC Class Characters
Most NPCs with a PC class cap at Level 4 (top of Tier I), with 2700 XP.
Most NPCs are unclassed, or have an NPC class. The most common NPC classes are:
Warrior (Hunter or Defender); Spellcaster (Healer or Mage); & Expert (eg a minstrel or aristocrat). NPC class characters cap at Level 6.
Expert: d8 Hit Die, Light armour. SA: Grand another advantage on next check as a Bonus Action (help, command or inspire), 6 skills. Good save: DEX
Healer: d8 Hit Die, light armour, access to some Cleric spells, 4 skills. Good save: WIS
Mage: d8 Hit Die, no armour, access to some Wizard spells, 4 skills. Good save: WIS
Hunter: d10 Hit Die, medium armour, +2 bonus to attacks rolls, 4 skills. Good save: CON
Defender: d10 Hit Die, heavy armour, Protection style, 4 skills. Good save: CON
______________________

One thing I've done is use the default 5e XP system but create weaker, low XP versions of monsters, which gives a far more old school feel than 5e's 100 XP Orcs.

5e Old School Foes
Template
CR PB +2
AC  HP
ST DE CO IN WI CH
ATT:    Damage:

CHALLENGE 0

Kobold Mook
CR 0 (10 XP) PB +2
AC  10/12 w shield HP 2 (d6-1)
ST -3 DE +0 CO -1 IN -1 WI -2 CH -2
Dagger (1h) or kobold spear (1h): Melee Weapon Attack: +2 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 2 (1d4) piercing damage. Spear does 1d6 2-handed.
Sling (2h loading): Ranged Weapon Attack: +2 to hit, range 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: 2 (1d4) bludgeoning damage.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the kobold has disadvantage on Attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Pack Tactics: The kobold has advantage on an Attack roll against a creature if at least one of the kobold's allies is within 5 ft. of the creature and the ally isn't Incapacitated.

CHALLENGE 1/8

Pig Orc
CR 1/8 (25 XP) PB +2
AC 14/16 (ringmail, shield) HP 11
ST +1 DE +0 CO +1 IN -1 WI +0 CH -1
Spear, Hand Axe or Scimitar ATT: +3  Damage: 1d6+1
Halberd or Glaive (2h) ATT+3 Damage 1d10+1, reach 10'
Flail, Longsword or Battle Axe ATT +3 Damage 1d8+1
Light Crossbow (2h) ATT +2 Damage 1d8 range 80'/320'

Goblin Minion
CR 1/8 (25 XP) PB +2
AC 13/15 (hide, shield)  HP 7
ST -1 DE +1 CO +0 IN -1 WI -1 CH -1
Skills: Stealth+5
Goblin Dagger ATT: +3  Damage: 1d4+1
Goblin Spear (1h or 2h) ATT +3 Damage: 1d4+1/1d6+1; throw range 20'/60'.
Nimble Escape: Disengage or Hide as bonus action.

CHALLENGE 1/4

Hobgoblin Grunt
CR 1/4 (50 XP) PB +2
AC 15/17 (scale, shield) HP 11
ST +1 DE +1 CO +1 IN -1 WI -1 CH -1
Spear or Scimitar ATT: +3  Damage: 1d6+1 (2d6+1 with Martial Advantage)
Heavy Crossbow (2h) ATT +3 Damage 1d10+1
Martial Advantage: Once per turn the hobgoblin can deal an extra 1d6 damage to a creature it hits with a melee weapon attack if that creature is within 5' of an ally of the hobgoblin that isn't incapacitated.

Human Brigand
CR 1/4 (50 XP) PB +2
AC 14/16 (ring or chain shirt, shield) HP 16
ST +2 DE +1 CO +1 IN +0 WI +0 CH +0
Longsword, Flail or Battle Axe ATT: +4  Damage: 1d8+2/2-h 1d10+2
Heavy crossbow (2h) ATT+3 Damage 1d10+1 range 100'/400'

Human Guard Corporal
CR 1/4 (50 XP) PB +2
AC 16/18 (chainmail, shield) HP 16
ST +2 DE +0 CO +1 IN +0 WI +0 CH +0
Skills: Perception +2
Halberd (2h) ATT: +4 Damage: 1d10+2, reach 10'
Spear ATT +4 Damage 1d6+2, 2h 1d8+2.
Mace ATT +4 Damage 1d6+2 blunt - Subdual
Heavy Crossbow (2h) ATT +2 Damage 1d10 range 80'/320'
Subdual: an opponent reduced to 0 hp by guard's mace, but not killed outright, is unconscious & stable.

CHALLENGE 1/2

Dark Cleric
CR 1/2 (100 XP) PB +2  HD 3d8+3 HP 16
AC 14 (chain shirt) speed 30'
ST +1 DE +1 CON +1 IN +1 WI +1 CH +1
Skills: Religion +3, Insight +3, Deception +3
Passive Perception 11
wpn: staff ATT +3 2h dam 1d8+1
The Dark Cleric is a 1st level spellcaster. Save DC 11, Attack Bonus +3
Cantrips (at will): light, sacred flame, thaumaturgy
1st level (3 slots): bless, healing word, command

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1145212It's designed less for: "Almost hopeless scrub goes into the dungeon in a big group.  Rare survivors become heroes."  

5e plays a lot like that at level 1! Just don't level up the PCs to 2nd after 1 session, make them work for it. If you use mostly CR 1/8 monsters in groups then the PCs are probably only earning 50-100 XP per session. Eg 8 25 XP Bandits vs 4 level 1 PCs is a nasty fight that brings in 50 XP each, if they survive. The MM Guard, Tribal Warrior, Kobold, and Giant Rat all work well for this. Other creatures can be nerfed a bit to bring them down to CR 1/8, like my Pig Orc above.

Here's another example of a monster converted to old school feel:

Skeleton, Decreipt

CR 1/8 (25 XP) PB +2

AC 14 (shield) HD 1d8+2 HP 6

ST +0 DE +2 CO +2 IN -2 WI -1 CH -3

Vulnerabilities Bludgeoning

Damage Immunities Poison

Condition Immunities Exhaustion, Poisoned

Senses Darkvision 60 Ft., passive Perception 9

Scimitar or Shortsword: ATT +4 Damage: 1d6+2

You can use a lot more of these in the XP budget, scare the players & avoid levelling up to fast. A big thing in old school D&D is the level demographics - you want a lot more emphasis on level 1-4; level 5+ should be a major achievement.

Quote from: S'mon;1145371I've actually just started an Old School 5e Forgotten Realms game set in Damara 1359 DR - the 1e era. We've only had one fight so far, but game has been great fun (3rd session tonight). My 1e based house rules - training to level, 1 week long rest, and side based init seem like the biggest ones, along with not using Feats.

HOUSE RULES

Long Rest:  a full Long Rest normally takes 1 week, and restores all Hit Dice. Typical upkeep/subsistence cost is 1gp/day, 7gp/week. Sleeping overnight may restore some hit points, typically 1 per level, or 2 per level for a full day's rest.
Typically, adventurers go on a 'delve' of up to 6-8 encounters in one day, then return to their base to rest and recuperate for about a week, before setting out again.

Short Rests take 1 hour, but short rest ability recovery is capped at 3 times per day.

Training to level up takes place during a Long Rest, as normal, and requires a mentor, who will typically charge around 150gp, or service in lieu of payment. Self-training without a mentor takes 4 weeks, with upkeep & self-training costs of 50gp. Until a character can train, their XP is capped at the minimum needed for the second level up - eg a level 1 character's XP total caps at 900 until trained. A level 2 character's XP total caps at 2700 until trained.

Side Based Initiative & Turns: GM rolls a d6, on a 4-6 the player's side goes first. Characters with Advantage on Initiative get a second d6 roll chance to act before the enemy at the start of combat. One side (or some members of one side) may automatically go first depending on circumstances, eg they succeeded at a Deception, Stealth or Sleight of Hand check, or opponents are initially Surprised. Player character actions are resolved in order of posting. Each side's turn is treated as roughly simultaneous - eg start-of-turn effects such as continuing damage and death saves are treated as simultaneous on each side. In case of one-vs-one duels the standard initiative system is used.

Attacks from the Rear normally have Advantage (GM's judgement). A character may always change their facing on their turn as part of movement, or as a Reaction on the enemy's turn. A character with Speed = 0 cannot change their facing.

Quickdraw Weapons: A light blade (dagger, scimitar, shortsword) in a scabbard, or a javelin or dart in a quiver (maximum 4), may be drawn as part of the attack action, without using an object interaction.

Territory Development
When characters clear and rule territory around a stronghold, they may receive a tax income of 5-9 silver pieces per inhabitant per month. Fighters, and some other classes, may also have a body of Followers come to serve them.

NPC Class Characters
Most NPCs with a PC class cap at Level 4 (top of Tier I), with 2700 XP.
Most NPCs are unclassed, or have an NPC class. The most common NPC classes are:
Warrior (Hunter or Defender); Spellcaster (Healer or Mage); & Expert (eg a minstrel or aristocrat). NPC class characters cap at Level 6.
Expert: d8 Hit Die, Light armour. SA: Grand another advantage on next check as a Bonus Action (help, command or inspire), 6 skills. Good save: DEX
Healer: d8 Hit Die, light armour, access to some Cleric spells, 4 skills. Good save: WIS
Mage: d8 Hit Die, no armour, access to some Wizard spells, 4 skills. Good save: WIS
Hunter: d10 Hit Die, medium armour, +2 bonus to attacks rolls, 4 skills. Good save: CON
Defender: d10 Hit Die, heavy armour, Protection style, 4 skills. Good save: CON
______________________

One thing I've done is use the default 5e XP system but create weaker, low XP versions of monsters, which gives a far more old school feel than 5e's 100 XP Orcs.

5e Old School Foes
Template
CR PB +2
AC  HP
ST DE CO IN WI CH
ATT:    Damage:

CHALLENGE 0

Kobold Mook
CR 0 (10 XP) PB +2
AC  10/12 w shield HP 2 (d6-1)
ST -3 DE +0 CO -1 IN -1 WI -2 CH -2
Dagger (1h) or kobold spear (1h): Melee Weapon Attack: +2 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 2 (1d4) piercing damage. Spear does 1d6 2-handed.
Sling (2h loading): Ranged Weapon Attack: +2 to hit, range 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: 2 (1d4) bludgeoning damage.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the kobold has disadvantage on Attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Pack Tactics: The kobold has advantage on an Attack roll against a creature if at least one of the kobold's allies is within 5 ft. of the creature and the ally isn't Incapacitated.

CHALLENGE 1/8

Pig Orc
CR 1/8 (25 XP) PB +2
AC 14/16 (ringmail, shield) HP 11
ST +1 DE +0 CO +1 IN -1 WI +0 CH -1
Spear, Hand Axe or Scimitar ATT: +3  Damage: 1d6+1
Halberd or Glaive (2h) ATT+3 Damage 1d10+1, reach 10'
Flail, Longsword or Battle Axe ATT +3 Damage 1d8+1
Light Crossbow (2h) ATT +2 Damage 1d8 range 80'/320'

Goblin Minion
CR 1/8 (25 XP) PB +2
AC 13/15 (hide, shield)  HP 7
ST -1 DE +1 CO +0 IN -1 WI -1 CH -1
Skills: Stealth+5
Goblin Dagger ATT: +3  Damage: 1d4+1
Goblin Spear (1h or 2h) ATT +3 Damage: 1d4+1/1d6+1; throw range 20'/60'.
Nimble Escape: Disengage or Hide as bonus action.

CHALLENGE 1/4

Hobgoblin Grunt
CR 1/4 (50 XP) PB +2
AC 15/17 (scale, shield) HP 11
ST +1 DE +1 CO +1 IN -1 WI -1 CH -1
Spear or Scimitar ATT: +3  Damage: 1d6+1 (2d6+1 with Martial Advantage)
Heavy Crossbow (2h) ATT +3 Damage 1d10+1
Martial Advantage: Once per turn the hobgoblin can deal an extra 1d6 damage to a creature it hits with a melee weapon attack if that creature is within 5' of an ally of the hobgoblin that isn't incapacitated.

Human Brigand
CR 1/4 (50 XP) PB +2
AC 14/16 (ring or chain shirt, shield) HP 16
ST +2 DE +1 CO +1 IN +0 WI +0 CH +0
Longsword, Flail or Battle Axe ATT: +4  Damage: 1d8+2/2-h 1d10+2
Heavy crossbow (2h) ATT+3 Damage 1d10+1 range 100'/400'

Human Guard Corporal
CR 1/4 (50 XP) PB +2
AC 16/18 (chainmail, shield) HP 16
ST +2 DE +0 CO +1 IN +0 WI +0 CH +0
Skills: Perception +2
Halberd (2h) ATT: +4 Damage: 1d10+2, reach 10'
Spear ATT +4 Damage 1d6+2, 2h 1d8+2.
Mace ATT +4 Damage 1d6+2 blunt - Subdual
Heavy Crossbow (2h) ATT +2 Damage 1d10 range 80'/320'
Subdual: an opponent reduced to 0 hp by guard's mace, but not killed outright, is unconscious & stable.

CHALLENGE 1/2

Dark Cleric
CR 1/2 (100 XP) PB +2  HD 3d8+3 HP 16
AC 14 (chain shirt) speed 30'
ST +1 DE +1 CON +1 IN +1 WI +1 CH +1
Skills: Religion +3, Insight +3, Deception +3
Passive Perception 11
wpn: staff ATT +3 2h dam 1d8+1
The Dark Cleric is a 1st level spellcaster. Save DC 11, Attack Bonus +3
Cantrips (at will): light, sacred flame, thaumaturgy
1st level (3 slots): bless, healing word, command

For low level humanoid monsters, look at the Non Player Characters in Appendix B of the 5e Monster Manual. Each and every one is "Humanoid (any race)", which specifically includes kobolds, goblins, ircs, etc.

Why make weaker monsters? Isn't the point to discourage people trying to fight them because they're dangerous?

That post is gold btw

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145394Why make weaker monsters? Isn't the point to discourage people trying to fight them because they're dangerous?

That post is gold btw

If I am not mistaken, the objective is to avoid "XP for gold", which requires at least some "XP for kills". Weaker monsters means less XP for kills, which slows leveling, while the randomness of the dice across the greater number of encounters creates its own threat to 1st level characters, even in 5e. Add to that the stricter healing and HP recovery.

Ah, why not just drop XP for monsters completely? I've done that for 5e as a normal thing for years and it works fine. I'd just give XP for completing quests.

Or just put enough gold to match the monster XP and drop the monster XP itself out.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1145398Ah, why not just drop XP for monsters completely? I've done that for 5e as a normal thing for years and it works fine. I'd just give XP for completing quests.

Or just put enough gold to match the monster XP and drop the monster XP itself out.

XP for monsters is preferred by many to XP for gold. It's almost like DMs don't know how to challenge PCs who aren't dirt  poor...

Thanks! I've been lurking for 3 years!

Quote from: RandyB;1145400XP for monsters is preferred by many to XP for gold. It's almost like DMs don't know how to challenge PCs who aren't dirt  poor...

The way I've run it for years is no XP for monsters, but just a set XP every session no matter what, with some bonuses if they really go above and beyond. It's not really old school but it makes it so that any kind of play style gets you experience.

I do it differently depending on the game though, since each game has its own aesthetic and goals.

Quote from: Zalman;1145234Keep it simple -- strip out the few parts you like, and call it something other than "5e", to waylay any player expectations.

Waylay player expectations.....  Yes.

I think it's doable. This thread already has a lot of good suggestions. I'd add that I'd disallow multiclassing. If you want to replicate to some degree the classic elf class I'd point such players in the direction of the eldritch knight subclass and restrict that to elves only.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1145175I suspect the answer depends on how one defines "old school".

Is 5e too different a game compared to TSR/OSR editions to be played as "old school"?

Would the changes necessary be too onerous on the 5e players?

What would be the advantage of running 5e "old school" versus just running TSR edition or an OSR game?

Been there, done that. I decided that I was either going to do 5E in my next campaign or AD&D. Not 2E. Just AD&D.

I picked 5E with gritty rules and given the two new attractive tools in the DM toolbox, bound accuracy, and advantage/disadvantage, I made things work like they used to: difficult.

What doesn't work:

One: Remember that sinking feeling you got when you had to Save vs. Death. Not some hit points. Or being stunned. But bitting it, right there at the roll of the dice? Everything in 5E goes against that mechanic. Still working on that one in such a way as the players would agree "yup, harsh but works."

Two: Monsters. The entire concept of a CR system for "balanced encounters" was never a thing in AD&D. Sure, you had Hit Dice this, and Hit Dice that, but not more often than not, encounter balance was a matter of not doing something stupid like fighting to the bitter end, negotiating tactics, hit and run, treachery and other fun things because some wanker low hit dice monster had some ability to just wreck your trash. It took me a while to learn to old-school 5E CR system. I've recently started blogging about it starting here: The Misunderstood World of 5E Game Balance, Part 1.