Quote from: Seanchai;235427While I do agree with you that gamers like games they feel are supported, I'm not sure gamers expect instant support for games. I think you're right that instant support is definitely a plus, I'm just not sure it would have been a deal-breaker for prospective 3e buyers or that it was something WotC needed for 3e. I mean, they certainly don't have it for 4e and 4e is selling like hotcakes.

Perhaps they don't expect it, but the OGL certainly delivered it.  Additionally, it was a good deal easier to convert from 2e, so the investment in supplements wasn't made obsolete.  Also, 4e has a fairly aggressive release schedule for supplements already, including Forgotten Realms, and several splats before the end of the year.  I am sure someone will produce a list, but I don't recall the 3.0 release schedule being nearly as aggressive.

QuoteIt sounds like it's still units sold to actual buyers (not just to distributors) - it's just that some books are excluded.

I think the major point was that 3.x would have been on the bestseller's list as well, if the NYT hadn't excluded it.

QuoteNot really. A Mage supplement isn't going to do you much good at all unless you have also purchased the Mage core rulebook. And in that case, you're not really buying a supplement for Werewolf, you're buying a supplement for your Mage book, you're just going to use it in a Werewolf game.

But, like supplement bloat, that's something other publishers content with as well. You can't just grab a random Mage supplement and use it in your Werewolf game unless you also have the Mage corebook. You won't understand how the special rules work, won't know what a Son of Ether or Silver Ladder is meant to be, won't understand the rotes, etc..

I dunno, they still follow a pretty recognizable pattern.  Essence in one game is Rage in the other is Arete in the next and so on.  Or something, I haven't dug my books out in a while.

To the point, for the most part, no: a Mage supplement isn't going to fit perfectly with your Werewolf game.  I think they are similar enough to work with little difficulty.  My original presumption was that you would have the Werewolf and Mage corebooks anyway.  There is no easy analogy with D&D, except maybe 3.5 core and Iron Heroes and a couple of supplements for each.  Iron Heroes does things significantly differently, but it's not a completely different game.  You can use the IH supplements with a bit of fiddling sans the Iron Heroes book.

I think the supplement bloat with WW is a different beast than with AD&D 2nd or 3.x.  In neither case is it a central selling point, but in both cases, I think it helps, and they both would have suffered had they not existed.

Quote from: StormBringer;235436Perhaps they don't expect it, but the OGL certainly delivered it. Additionally, it was a good deal easier to convert from 2e, so the investment in supplements wasn't made obsolete.

True and true.
 

Quote from: StormBringer;235436I am sure someone will produce a list, but I don't recall the 3.0 release schedule being nearly as aggressive.

I recall the opposite. If anything, the 4e release schedule seems a tad slow. I guess they're supplementing it this go 'round with minis and tiles.

Quote from: StormBringer;235436I think the major point was that 3.x would have been on the bestseller's list as well, if the NYT hadn't excluded it.

Okay. But a) it got there without third party support and b) 4e also sold out larger runs, etc..

Quote from: StormBringer;235436I dunno, they still follow a pretty recognizable pattern.

There's definitely a pattern, but what does The Abyss of the Mind do? What can a mage do with Life 1 and Forces 2? You can't know that stuff unless you've a core rulebook.

Quote from: StormBringer;235436There is no easy analogy with D&D...

Sure there is: A Greyhawk module being used in a Forgotten Realms game.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;235657I recall the opposite. If anything, the 4e release schedule seems a tad slow. I guess they're supplementing it this go 'round with minis and tiles.

I may be subconsciously padding my 4e estimates with the minis.  On the other hand, 4e already has the second set of core books scheduled.  I will grant, however, that there were no original plans for 3e to have a PHBII.  I recall some of the early supplements coming out fairly quickly, but they were rather sparse, too.  Sword & Fist weighs in at 96 pages, which is rather scant for an initial offering.

I could very well be misremembering, I will have to dig up a timeline of releases for 3.0.  

QuoteOkay. But a) it got there without third party support and b) 4e also sold out larger runs, etc..

I have no way of showing 3rd party support contributed to sales, but I don't think the figures are out there anywhere to show one way or the other.  I will concede that 3rd party support certainly wasn't critical to 3.0 sales.

 According to an unnamed source on the Acaeum, "In 1989, TSR        sold something like 1,000,000 copies of the D&D boxed set in one year." and "I think they're selling at least 150,000 to        200,000 Players Handbooks per year (probably more with the 3.5        release)."  It doesn't say when the email from the anonymous employee was recieved, however.  I would imagine 4e sales will be at least in that same ballpark, but I will wait for the final figures.

QuoteThere's definitely a pattern, but what does The Abyss of the Mind do? What can a mage do with Life 1 and Forces 2? You can't know that stuff unless you've a core rulebook.

Sure there is: A Greyhawk module being used in a Forgotten Realms game.

Sure, like I said, it isn't a perfect match.  As each new 'game' was released, it had guidelines on how to use previous rules, and how to use those rules with the previous set.  They were a rough fit using the current rules, of course, so the details of a particular splat would be somewhat meaningless.  But still useable; Abyss of the Mind can be emulated with Obfuscation, if you don't have the Mage book, or don't care to have Mages as a recurring part of the campaign.  What the actual rules are is kind of irrelevant, again, if you aren't going to use Mages or get the core book.  In fact, I would posit that those blurbs were a bit of guerrilla marketing for their other products.

I would say a Greyhawk module would fit more easily into a Forgotten Realms campaign without the Greyhawk material than the Vampire/Mage combo.  Most of the modules were designed to be pretty setting agnostic.  It might have mentioned the Grand Duchy of Geoff, or some activity in the Pomarj, but those are easily filed off.  If WotC had released a "D&D:Humans" then a "D&D:Elves" and so on, that would probably be a closer fit.