Quote from: snooggums;775141My previous games involved a lot of  investigation and stuff, but not mechanically supported by those games.

Does anyone think it would be better to spend money on some of the  setting books for examples to use/adapt to 7th to spend the time getting  a feel for overall play?

I get the themes and whatnot, so I'm wondering if the published  adventures/campaigns/whatever they are called would be helpful for  someone who hasn't really done an investigation themed game  before.

YMMV but I don't think CoC - at least pre-7E - mechanically supports investigative games much other than by there being investigative skills on the character sheet (Library Use, Spot Hidden and a bunch of specific knowledge skills).

Quote from: 3rik;775157YMMV but I don't think CoC - at least pre-7E - mechanically supports investigative games much other than by there being investigative skills on the character sheet (Library Use, Spot Hidden and a bunch of specific knowledge skills).

What other support would you like it to feature?

Quote from: 3rik;775157YMMV but I don't think CoC - at least pre-7E - mechanically supports investigative games much other than by there being investigative skills on the character sheet (Library Use, Spot Hidden and a bunch of specific knowledge skills).

An "Investigation System" where players just roll on a flowchart or whatever would pretty much strangle everything that makes CoC special in the first place.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;775232An "Investigation System" where players just roll on a flowchart or whatever would pretty much strangle everything that makes CoC special in the first place.

More advice on designing good mysteries for RPGs might be of use (not just for CoC), not creating bottlenecks and so forth. GURPS Mysteries is a good supplement for such things.
I don't think it's a 'problem' that needs more mechanics thrown at it.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;774833What edition was the Games Workshop hardcover that came out in the 80's? Because that was about as close to perfect as an RPG can get. I never picked up any subsequent editions because I just didn't see how they could improve on it.

That was the first edition of the RPG, which I agree sets a standard for a gamebook that to this day I've yet to see surpassed.

The 3rd edition of the wargame came out a year later, incorporating many of the elements of the RPG and the fleshed out background, and this edition is the primary one played by the Oldhammer community.

He's talking about Call of Cthulhu, Games Workshop published the 3rd edition both as a boxed set and a hardback.  Here's the hardback cover he means I think.

Quote from: K Peterson;774357Nope. Read through them; was very disappointed by the design choices they made; didn't have any desire to run it for my group.

What did they change?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;774899Their edition of STORMBRINGER, however, fell to pieces if looked at harshly. Which is is a crying shame, because I remember it as being a beautiful, ahead-of-it's-time game in terms of presentation and graphics. The cover was just METAL as all fuck and popped out at you from across the room.

Very true, but that's why Hastur invented glue.

If anyone is interested in Elric/Stormbringer or Old School Sword & Sorcery, you gotta hunt down the Stormbringer 3e by GW. So utterly badass and full of awesome.

Quote from: jadrax;7749193e has no organisation and costs you 3d4 SAN ever time you look something up. On the other hand the second half of the book is every shred of support material they could find. It is truly marvelous.

Also, very true.  But I'm not sure what 3e has that 4e/5e/6e did not. From a "pack the goodies in the book" perspective, 3e was a huge leap from 1e/2e.

Quote from: The Butcher;775218What other support would you like it to feature?

None whatsoever. I was responding to snooggum. I just edited a quote into my post to clarify this.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;775232An "Investigation System" where players just roll on a flowchart or whatever would pretty much strangle everything that makes CoC special in the first place.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: Simlasa;775243More advice on designing good mysteries for RPGs might be of use (not just for CoC), not creating bottlenecks and so forth. GURPS Mysteries is a good supplement for such things.
I don't think it's a 'problem' that needs more mechanics thrown at it.

Possibly. Earlier scenarios certainly contain bottleneck investigative dice rolls if followed by the letter, but I agree that throwing "investigative mechanics" at this "problem", like Trail of Cthulhu made an attempt at, is neither desirable nor very helpful.

The best "support for investigative scenarios" I can think of is the 100+ page fluff-only French-language-only supplement on forensic science in the 1920s.

Quote from: Spinachcat;775305What did they change?

In short:

• Percentile characteristics
• Modifications to the Luck attribute (to act as a pool to "push" skill checks)
• the Build attribute (comes into play in close combat)
• Bonus and Penalty dice (much like 5e's Advantage and Disadvantage system)
• changes to various combat skills
• the addition of "Fighting Manuevers"
• different task resolution success levels

Quote from: K Peterson;775337In short:

• Percentile characteristics
• Modifications to the Luck attribute (to act as a pool to "push" skill checks)
• the Build attribute (comes into play in close combat)
• Bonus and Penalty dice (much like 5e's Advantage and Disadvantage system)
• changes to various combat skills
• the addition of "Fighting Manuevers"
• different task resolution success levels

With the exception of the modifications to Luck, these don't seem too bad to me.

Quote from: Akrasia;776147With the exception of the modifications to Luck, these don't seem too bad to me.

I haven't even looked at it, so I don't have an informed opinion, but just the idea of "Fighting Maneuvers" in Call of Cthulhu makes me chuckle.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;776152just the idea of "Fighting Maneuvers" in Call of Cthulhu makes me chuckle.

Seems a bit silly to me... and the bonus/penalty dice... nope, do NOT want.
The 'push' mechanic was a situational thing we were doing already.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;776152I haven't even looked at it, so I don't have an informed opinion, but just the idea of "Fighting Maneuvers" in Call of Cthulhu makes me chuckle.

Here they are (from the quick start rules):

QuoteFighting Maneuvers

If a player describes a goal that is something other than simply inflicting physical harm then it can be resolved with a “fighting maneuver”.

A successful maneuver allows the character to achieve one thing, such as:

• Disarm an opponent
• Knock an opponent to the floor
• Seize and hold an opponent, whereupon the opponent must apply one penalty die to his or her actions until he or she breaks free.

A maneuver is treated the same way as a regular Fighting attack, using the Fighting (Brawl) skill. The opponent may dodge or fight back as usual. Compare the Build of the two combatants. If the character performing the maneuver has a smaller Build than their opponent then he or she takes a penalty die for each point of difference (to a maximum of two penalty dice). If an opponent exceeds the attacker’s build by three or more, any fighting maneuvers are ineffective; the attacker may be able to lay hands on their opponent, but lacks the strength and size required to take advantage of their grip.

Example: Brian attempts to push a ghoul out of a nearby window (a fighting maneuver). Brian’s Build is zero and the ghoul’s Build is 1, so Brian takes 1 penalty die on his attack roll. Brian rolls 02 and 22; he had a penalty die so must use the higher roll—a hard success (under half Brian’s Fighting skill). The ghoul is fighting back, and it rolls a regular success on its Fighting skill. Brian has achieved a better level of success and so his maneuver is successful—he shoves the ghoul through the window.

They seem fine to me, and I certainly can envision situations in a CoC game where they would come up.

I ran three session with the 7th edition starter rules. Didn't use the included adventure, just made my own.

The highlights were: we all really liked the difficulty being integrated into the skills/attributes themselves. That made it easy for me, at least, to simply ask for an Average this, or a Difficult that.

We didn't use the push mechanic. Wasn't really our thing. Didn't seem to miss much by not using it.

Fighting maneuvers was fun. My games always start Mythos light, and in my games investigators in the 20s are often getting into fisticuffs with the people they are investigating, or perhaps the rude chap at the speakeasy.

All in all it felt like CoC always did, seems perfectly compatible (well, perfectly enough). Just seemed more, precise I guess?

Too long didn't read: Liked the difficulty integration into skills, didn't use Push/Luck, liked the Fighting Maneuvers. Just seemed like a cleaner version of a game that we've been playing forever.