So I got Cairn, the 1st edition and also the 2nd Player's Guide off Amazon for less than $10 total. The original game looks...well, interesting? It's rules-light, small book, and looks super easy to play, but has enough depth to be something more than simplistic. 2nd edition, however, is way bigger and I am thinking it might sort of undermine the entire point of this game, especially considering there's a GMs guide (Warden?) floating around that doesn't have POD yet.
Is this one of those cases of someone trying to do too much? It's almost as if the author made a decent light RPG, had some success, and now padded the fuck out of the new edition because he got carried away. It's obviously not some sort of cash grab as the game is literally free with a print version at basically cost, but what is it with this sort of pathological issue where the complication is almost inescapable? Did I miss something here?
Anyway, just looking for some opinions on the two editions and if it's worth playing.
I only have Cairn first edition and there really isn't enough there to call it a game. A hodge-podge of tables and ideas. It's almost a really good bunch of tables for NPCs.
I picked up the second edition just recently as part of a pile of cheap-o Amazon purchases, and yeah, I flipped through it once and it left virtually no impression on me. I'm a rules light guy, but with Cairn I didn't see what the hype was about.
Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2025, 08:39:44 PMSo I got Cairn, the 1st edition and also the 2nd Player's Guide off Amazon for less than $10 total. The original game looks...well, interesting? It's rules-light, small book, and looks super easy to play, but has enough depth to be something more than simplistic. 2nd edition, however, is way bigger and I am thinking it might sort of undermine the entire point of this game, especially considering there's a GMs guide (Warden?) floating around that doesn't have POD yet.
Is this one of those cases of someone trying to do too much? It's almost as if the author made a decent light RPG, had some success, and now padded the fuck out of the new edition because he got carried away. It's obviously not some sort of cash grab as the game is literally free with a print version at basically cost, but what is it with this sort of pathological issue where the complication is almost inescapable? Did I miss something here?
Anyway, just looking for some opinions on the two editions and if it's worth playing.
I got Cairn 1st ed a year or 2 ago. It's super fast to pick up and run. The indie crowd supporters added a lot of one shots and stuff. One YouTuber did a Cops like take with it. Pretty clever you play as town constables patrolling the town at nite.
What you said about 2nd Ed got me banned from the authors cairn discord. He apparently didn't like my criticisms of his creation.
Oh well. Look on itch.io for more add-ons. Oh and the cairn support website, there's several add-ons there too
Quote from: Brad on February 02, 2025, 08:39:44 PMSo I got Cairn, the 1st edition and also the 2nd Player's Guide off Amazon for less than $10 total.
I'm not very familiar with Cairn. Are the 1st and 2nd editions compatible? If you buy those two products you mention, do you have a full (and fully compatible) game?
Quote from: Crusader X on February 02, 2025, 11:25:42 PMQuote from: Brad on February 02, 2025, 08:39:44 PMSo I got Cairn, the 1st edition and also the 2nd Player's Guide off Amazon for less than $10 total.
I'm not very familiar with Cairn. Are the 1st and 2nd editions compatible? If you buy those two products you mention, do you have a full (and fully compatible) game?
No idea if they're compatible but they're both free legally. 2e is up on drivethru and the first edition is linked on their website to a google drive.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/500476/cairn-player-s-guide-2nd-edition
Monster Of The Week was out of print for quite some time until they padded it a bit, made a new cover, marked up the price, and had the motivation to sell it again. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but certainly reprints and second editions can end up fluffy for a real motivator to do a reprint. It could also help ensure a longer copyright/trademark date into the future. Trademarks can expire if they're not actively utilized.
I think a Cairn/Knave hybridization would work for light gaming as neither is that deep of a game. Maybe a 2-3 session campaign. I found games like Swords and Six-Siders to be better for the same thing.
Up until recently, I was a player at a Cairn 1e game for about a year (the game is still going).
I'd say it take a specific kind of GM and group to really carry a long campaign in it.
Personally, I'd opt for Mausritter/ Crowns for a more complete feeling game with a similar base.
There's also Block, Dodge,Parry that add crunch to it (there's a free SRD that has enough to get a feel for it).
I think 2e has better explanations about the mindset and I like the backgrounds, omens etc. Nothing that can't be easily ported over elsewhere.
The recent hubbub with trying to throw Ben Milton under the bus pretty much killed my unterest in it completely. I don't like people who are for silencing others. The PDFs are free on itch.io
Quote from: a_wanderer on February 03, 2025, 05:23:54 AMUp until recently, I was a player at a Cairn 1e game for about a year (the game is still going).
I'd say it take a specific kind of GM and group to really carry a long campaign in it.
Personally, I'd opt for Mausritter/ Crowns for a more complete feeling game with a similar base.
There's also Block, Dodge,Parry that add crunch to it (there's a free SRD that has enough to get a feel for it).
I think 2e has better explanations about the mindset and I like the backgrounds, omens etc. Nothing that can't be easily ported over elsewhere.
The recent hubbub with trying to throw Ben Milton under the bus pretty much killed my unterest in it completely. I don't like people who are for silencing others. The PDFs are free on itch.io
Wait what did he do with Ben Milton
Quote from: Slambo on February 03, 2025, 09:39:39 AMWait what did he do with Ben Milton
He DARED sending a review copy of his latest adventure to Ben, that used to have The Red Room as a sponsor- they trolled some people that complained aabout them being a sponsor on the Questing Beast channel,so naturally the offended demanded answers feom Ben who said he wish to stay a-political, apparently a "dog whistle" that is cause enough to demand boycotting him, and the crazed mob went hard for Yochai for sending Ben the review copy (which is so ironic, Yochai is VERY progressive), so much so that he left BlueSky, not before bending the knee and saying maybe Ben should be boycotted.
Deranged people eating their own
I liked reading through the first one, but the guy is very obviously a liberal and I don't trust anything he says or makes
Cairn is the latest attempt to reinvent the wheel when it comes to OSR. The reality is that we are swimming in retro clones and OSR lite games. Once you own one of them, you pretty much have everything you need, but that doesn't make money, so once a month we have a new Kickstarter project that gets over hyped. Similar or better items can be found cheaper at DTRPG or Itch but it's not the latest fad.
Okay, so it's not just me...
Quote from: a_wanderer on February 03, 2025, 10:48:55 AMQuote from: Slambo on February 03, 2025, 09:39:39 AMWait what did he do with Ben Milton
He DARED sending a review copy of his latest adventure to Ben, that used to have The Red Room as a sponsor- they trolled some people that complained aabout them being a sponsor on the Questing Beast channel,so naturally the offended demanded answers feom Ben who said he wish to stay a-political, apparently a "dog whistle" that is cause enough to demand boycotting him, and the crazed mob went hard for Yochai for sending Ben the review copy (which is so ironic, Yochai is VERY progressive), so much so that he left BlueSky, not before bending the knee and saying maybe Ben should be boycotted.
Deranged people eating their own
That's too bad. I've watched a few Questing Beast videos and Ben seems like a real affable guy. So he threw Ben under the bus. What a douche.
Quote from: Acres Wild on February 03, 2025, 01:25:39 PMCairn is the latest attempt to reinvent the wheel when it comes to OSR. The reality is that we are swimming in retro clones and OSR lite games. Once you own one of them, you pretty much have everything you need, but that doesn't make money, so once a month we have a new Kickstarter project that gets over hyped. Similar or better items can be found cheaper at DTRPG or Itch but it's not the latest fad.
Yep, agree. I cant figure why people keep throwing money at kickstarts.
So many people to try 'once' I guess. Did that, got burned, didnt even get the tshirt for it.
Quote from: Acres Wild on February 03, 2025, 01:25:39 PMCairn is the latest attempt to reinvent the wheel when it comes to OSR. The reality is that we are swimming in retro clones and OSR lite games. Once you own one of them, you pretty much have everything you need, but that doesn't make money, so once a month we have a new Kickstarter project that gets over hyped. Similar or better items can be found cheaper at DTRPG or Itch but it's not the latest fad.
That is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.
Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.
You basically have to write your own, honestly. I've never seen one good GM who was 100% BtB, they ALWAYS changed something to more accurately reflect what they were trying to get out of a game. The OSR just encouraged tons of these games which are nothing more than house rules to proliferate. I rewrote Labyrinth Lord completely to incorporate a bunch of ideas and that's what we played for several years, so you just gotta do it yourself.
Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.
Out of curiosity, what specific fantasy itch(es) have the games you've tried been unable to scratch?
Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2025, 08:14:06 AMQuote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.
You basically have to write your own, honestly. I've never seen one good GM who was 100% BtB, they ALWAYS changed something to more accurately reflect what they were trying to get out of a game. The OSR just encouraged tons of these games which are nothing more than house rules to proliferate. I rewrote Labyrinth Lord completely to incorporate a bunch of ideas and that's what we played for several years, so you just gotta do it yourself.
Yeah, beginning to expect that's the case. The chief reason I haven't is a combination of time and the fact that I don't think I could get anyone to play it.
Quote from: RNGm on February 04, 2025, 08:57:01 AMQuote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 12:22:14 AMThat is all entirely true. And yet, I still can't find a fantasy game that does exactly what I want, so I do get why some people are still chasing the dream.
Out of curiosity, what specific fantasy itch(es) have the games you've tried been unable to scratch?
Mechanically, it's a lot of "almost there, but something's wrong".
Dragon Warriors has great core systems, particularly the combat, but there's a lot of unpolished side mechanics and the classes need a design overhaul. It's a good game for it's default setting/tone, but a bit limited beyond that.
Warlock! also has good core systems, but it's also a little married to its implicit setting and the magic is lacklustre. I also don't love the lack of attributes.
Shadow of the Demon Lord has great class progression and magic systems, but the combat system is mid and the default setting blows. WEG d6 is a brilliant rules structure, but the fantasy version is half-baked. So on and so forth. I like the Omni System, too, but again each version of it is custom-tailored to a setting. Every fantasy RPG I read has at least one aspect of it that prevents it from being a game I could run for years in the future.
Tone/Genre-wise, there's a subgenre that's been percolating in my head for a few years now, which as far as I can tell doesn't exist in tabletop gaming form. It's hard to explain, but what I have in mind I call "cosmic fantasy". Something that takes the internal logic of cosmic horror, with its sense of scale & mystery, and the way it treads the line between science fiction, fantasy and esotericism, and then applies that to a renaissance or medieval dark fantasy game world.
As far as existing RPGs go:
Black Void,
Carcosa and
Cthulhu Dark Ages are kind of thrusting in similar directions, but they all have their own problems and none of them are exactly the genre I want.
Hyperborea has the potential, but because it's a retroclone it ends up just feeling like standard D&D fantasy in practice. Videogames like
Skald: Against the Black Priory,
Bloodborne and
Darkest Dungeon are all a lot closer to what I have in mind than anything I've seen on the tabletop, though still not quite there.
I've put some thought into it, and if I was going to sit down to seriously create what I have in mind, it'd have to be an entirely new game: custom rules, custom setting, custom bestiary. I'd probably start with the OpenD6 SRD and then use the WEG Star Wars Force abilities as a baseline for building the magic system, reflavoring and expanding them as I went along. I'd want an archetype/profession system, an overhauled injury/death system, some tweaks to the combat, and different weapon/armor rules. Then I need a setting primer with its own cosmology and a book of original creatures that fit the intended genre. If I ever wanted to sell the thing, I'd have to learn to draw (because I have no illusions about it being profitable enough to fund art commissions), not to mention formatting, editing, publishing, etc.
There's a good chance I would actually do it someday. I've done some work already. But I do it with the understanding that it'll probably take me years to get it where I want it, and in all likelihood I'm doing all that work for nothing other than my own satisfaction. At the moment it seems like my time is better used writing table-ready material for existing games that I can actually use with my players.
@ForgottenF: Well, at least you can say you've tried a variety in your quest for the right fit rpg! I can't really add any that might scratch the itch unfortunately but appreciate the lengthy post as it mentioned two games that I never heard of, Dragon Warriors and Cthulhu Dark Ages. Is the latter substantively different from the normal Cthulhu in terms of game mechanics/combat in addition to the obviously massive setting change? I'm not particularly drawn to percentile games personally but the major reason I've never tried Cthulhu is the setting time period and a perception (however ignorant it may be) that it's adverse to action. I don't expect your average fantasy game's level of combat by any means but it always seemed like you're actively avoiding it at all costs at every turn from the few reviews I've watched of the core game/setting. Setting it in dark age England sounds like that might fix both issues potentially (obviously the drastic setting change is a given).
Quote from: RNGm on February 04, 2025, 06:01:15 PM@ForgottenF: Well, at least you can say you've tried a variety in your quest for the right fit rpg! I can't really add any that might scratch the itch unfortunately but appreciate the lengthy post as it mentioned two games that I never heard of, Dragon Warriors and Cthulhu Dark Ages. Is the latter substantively different from the normal Cthulhu in terms of game mechanics/combat in addition to the obviously massive setting change? I'm not particularly drawn to percentile games personally but the major reason I've never tried Cthulhu is the setting time period and a perception (however ignorant it may be) that it's adverse to action. I don't expect your average fantasy game's level of combat by any means but it always seemed like you're actively avoiding it at all costs at every turn from the few reviews I've watched of the core game/setting. Setting it in dark age England sounds like that might fix both issues potentially (obviously the drastic setting change is a given).
I should say that I haven't gotten to play all of those games. Dragon Warriors I have played, and it is a fantastic game, especially if you want to run a more mythic/folkloric/historical campaign, then I heartily recommend it. I have very little time logged with Call of Cthulhu in general, and none with Dark Ages, but I would guess that if anything it makes the game less action-focused rather than more. In regular CoC, the monsters are much more powerful than you, but you might get lucky and come up against them when you happen to have a B.A.R. or a bazooka or something. No such luck in the dark ages.
It's really up to the GM, though. Yeah, the big-name monsters of the Cthulhu Mythos are generally a death sentence to any human that tries to fight them --they kind of have to be to be true to the source-- but there's plenty of potential enemies in the game that a party of investigators plausibly can fight. Others can weigh in, but my impression is that in most CoC adventures the majority of adversaries are either humans low-level creatures like serpent men or ghouls, and the big eldritch horrors get saved for centerpiece moments.
Still, that's part of why I wouldn't use it for what I was talking about. I still want a game where a top-tier hero with a battleaxe can go up against a Shantak and have a chance of coming out on top.