Quote from: Soylent Green;579228I stick with my statement. I did stress kill or be killed for fabulous treasure; you don't need a fabulous treasure to simply put food on the table. Also the basic D&D campaign is predicated on the assumption that you won't just do this once, but that after you clear one dungeon you will go off and clear another (or engage is some other similar risky but lucrative enterprise), keep leveling up and keep increasing the stakes.

That's not greed, that's just entrepreneurial spirit.  Greed is what you do with the money later.

Like many people, you seem to be mistaking "Capitalism" for greed.

RPGPundit

Greed is good. It motivates adventurers to explore dangerous places.

The negative consequences of that greed happen all the time when adventurers push themselves too far, or mess with things they cannot hope to overcome in the name of obtaining more treasure.

" Its a dragon. Big deal, means its probably got good loot."

" Being outnumbered isn't so bad. This tribe looks pretty rich."

" I know we are lost and out of rations , but theres something shiny reflecting light down that hole."

" I seriously doubt there is more than one wight in this place."

" Unholy relics? Who the F cares how much are they worth?"

" Guys, do you know what awesome stuff we can make out of the tarrasque's hide?"

A lot of the talk here has focused on XP for GP, but in my experience, the primary greed is for items rather than coins.  Items along with coins are a key game reward that is coded in.  

If I wanted a game that was less materialistic, I would want to cut out that cycle.  As it stands, if I as DM make an adventure where there's no gold or items reward, the players will be angry.  If something happens such that the players lose or are asked to give up their items, then that's a dick move.  By contrast, if these things were to happen in some other fantasy games - like Mouse Guard or Fantasy Hero - the players wouldn't blink an eye.  


The most direct approach to me would be to remove treasure as a standard reward, and remove magic items entirely.  This would change the dynamic of the game a lot, but actually now that I say that, I think it would be interesting to try.  I'd also emphasize the usefulness of social rewards even though some items are clearly useful.

Quote from: jhkim;579963A lot of the talk here has focused on XP for GP, but in my experience, the primary greed is for items rather than coins.  Items along with coins are a key game reward that is coded in.  

If I wanted a game that was less materialistic, I would want to cut out that cycle.  As it stands, if I as DM make an adventure where there's no gold or items reward, the players will be angry.  If something happens such that the players lose or are asked to give up their items, then that's a dick move.  By contrast, if these things were to happen in some other fantasy games - like Mouse Guard or Fantasy Hero - the players wouldn't blink an eye.  


The most direct approach to me would be to remove treasure as a standard reward, and remove magic items entirely.  This would change the dynamic of the game a lot, but actually now that I say that, I think it would be interesting to try.  I'd also emphasize the usefulness of social rewards even though some items are clearly useful.

Our games have always been Magic lite. Because we don't want our characters to become frames for their kit.
However the D&D engine doesn't support this well. A 15th level fighter with a +2 sword and a suit of regular Chain mail simply can not take on level appropriate challenges so they end up mopping up weaker stuff they can hit and as such their XP reward drops and they basically get stuck. Nothing wrong with that from a roleplay perspective but its not how most people expect D&D to play.

You can fix some of it. We removed the need for a lot of creatures to be hit by only magic weapons replacing instead with Cold Iron or Silver but we also had to revise the HP system moving towards something close to 4e, simply because a fighter with AC of 4 will take a lot of hits fighting a 10 HD Ettin that does 2d10 damage or whatever. We also made better use of Parrying and other variant combat options.

I see this as a relatively easy fix. Greed begets greed. The PCs aren't the only people in the world with levels, crafty plans and Teleport spells who want to steal money for a living. Once the players start slinging around hundreds (if not thousands) of GP, it will attract unwanted attention...likely from other intrepid adventurers that want to raid someone else's treasury for their own gain.

Or, you could simply turn the idea of the Monty Haul game entirely on its ear, get creative and give players other forms of rewards asides accumulating a bunch of coins.

I desperately hate the "loot" model engendered by a lot of RPGs. Not my cup of tea.

If you wanted to keep the 1 GP/XP model, simply shift it from GP taken to GP eligible to be taken.

I typically do this sort of thing with food and water, for example.  I've never made my players actually stop and refill their rations, and unless they have been in a desert (or some other story-driven place where it would matter) I don't even require that they count them.  That they HAD them in the first place matters, not the upkeep.

Same with the GP.  It matters that they were able to loot them, not that they actually brought the wheelbarrow and carted them out.

Quote from: mcbobbo;580012If you wanted to keep the 1 GP/XP model, simply shift it from GP taken to GP eligible to be taken.

It's not always 1gp=1xp.  The 'exchange rate' depends on how difficult the treasure was to gain.  A 15th level Fighter that kills a Kobold who had a 100,000gp gem (wildly improbable, but possible) doesn't get 100,000xp.  Something like 1,000xp would be appropriate. (DMG 1st Edition, pg 85, "Experience value of treasure taken")

Of course, no matter what the dice say, a Kobold shouldn't have a 100,000gp gem, so that is just one example.  Other less extreme situations come up with more frequency.  The overall point being, xp for gp is intended to be scalable.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;580004I see this as a relatively easy fix. Greed begets greed. The PCs aren't the only people in the world with levels, crafty plans and Teleport spells who want to steal money for a living. Once the players start slinging around hundreds (if not thousands) of GP, it will attract unwanted attention...likely from other intrepid adventurers that want to raid someone else's treasury for their own gain.

Or, you could simply turn the idea of the Monty Haul game entirely on its ear, get creative and give players other forms of rewards asides accumulating a bunch of coins.

I desperately hate the "loot" model engendered by a lot of RPGs. Not my cup of tea.

but slinging round money is not greed its hoarding money that is greed. so if the players keep all their wealth in a secret tomb are they punished?

Quote from: jibbajibba;580033but slinging round money is not greed its hoarding money that is greed. so if the players keep all their wealth in a secret tomb are they punished?

If monsters can have their hoards raided, so should players' wealth. And all of the underhanded trickery PCs use, NPCs and monsters should use as well to get to that hoard. In fact, it's one of the main precepts of AD&D at high levels. Hirelings, retainers and fortifications are there to protect your wealth and lord over your little hex of land.

That's my thought on the matter, at least.

Quote from: jhkimThe most direct approach to me would be to remove treasure as a standard reward, and remove magic items entirely. This would change the dynamic of the game a lot, but actually now that I say that, I think it would be interesting to try. I'd also emphasize the usefulness of social rewards even though some items are clearly useful.

Quote from: jibbajibba;579966The D&D engine doesn't support this well. A 15th level fighter with a +2 sword and a suit of regular Chain mail simply can not take on level appropriate challenges so they end up mopping up weaker stuff they can hit and as such their XP reward drops and they basically get stuck. Nothing wrong with that from a roleplay perspective but its not how most people expect D&D to play.

Well, yes, I understand that this isn't how most people would expect to play - and I'd certainly treat this as a variant rather than straight D&D.  Still, problems at 15th level seem minor to me.  I could do something like the E6 option, or just reset campaigns that long.  I've never been in a D&D campaign from 1st to 15th before, so I wouldn't feel the lack.  

In this option, I would emphasize explicit social rewards (allies, patrons, resources, positions, etc.) instead of material items/treasure.