I'm playing old-school for the first time in decades. I've had two fairly common situations come up and wondered how others handled them.

1) Traps. In B/X, a trap is activated on a 1-2 on d6. Do you use this? On the one hand, they make dungeons a little less dangerous...except when the party fails to activate one, and then retreats out the dungeon the same way it suddenly grabs them. Seems like a dick move.

2) Treasure that isn't captured. Suppose monsters are slain but treasures are not retrieved. Suppose the treasure in question is out in the open, like a chest. When the adventurers return on a subsequent delve, is the treasure still there? What is the treasure was hidden, but is now no longer guarded? Does it get discovered? (This presumes that the dungeon has sentient inhabitants aside from visiting adventurers.)

Just curious. I'm running a kids' game and an adult game and I'm deciding how best to handle such situations. Thanks in advance.

It depends on the trap. How old is the trap? Recent, old, ancient? Operated by luck or magic? 1-2 on D6 is a good guideline, but vary it as you need.

Let's say you have a standard 10 foot pit trap in a hallway. It's 1-2 on D6 per person who crosses it. If 6 PCs cross it, there's a good chance someone is going down, but maybe not the first dude across.

Wandering monsters wander. If they come across dead monsters, they will probably take a bite and check around for stuff. Orcs are going to be thrilled for some free easy meat and certainly walk out with obvious treasure.

Most monsters are carnivores. Most carnivores are happy to scavenge, especially fresh kills.

The trap issue I run as-is, I just treat it as the characters' chances of finding a trap.

Unguarded treasure exists in my dungeons (hey, it's in the tables!), but whether it's still there depends on context. If the characters slay a dragon and are forced to leave the hoard behind, it's likely to be severely depleted next time they return. However, the logistics of treasure hauling apply to everyone else as much as to the characters so it may not be physically possible for it to have been removed in a short period.

Quote from: drkrash;8594431) Traps. In B/X, a trap is activated on a 1-2 on d6. Do you use this? On the one hand, they make dungeons a little less dangerous...except when the party fails to activate one, and then retreats out the dungeon the same way it suddenly grabs them. Seems like a dick move.

2) Treasure that isn't captured. Suppose monsters are slain but treasures are not retrieved. Suppose the treasure in question is out in the open, like a chest. When the adventurers return on a subsequent delve, is the treasure still there? What is the treasure was hidden, but is now no longer guarded? Does it get discovered? (This presumes that the dungeon has sentient inhabitants aside from visiting adventurers.)

In both cases, story should come first, then numbers be used if you don't know how, or simply don't want to decide.

1) Traps: It shouldn't be "traps activate on 1-2/d6". You should decide as a GM if the trap is old and rusted, or just new and well oiled. Just new would always activate, but maybe the thief has a 1-2/d6 chances of finding and removing it. If the trap is old and rusted, there is little (i.e. 1-2/d6) chances it will activate. Then, if the PCs search and find it, you tell them it didn't triggered because it's old and rusted.

2) Treasure: decide according to the dungeon if there are chances or not that the treasure would be plundered. An abandoned crypt that is scary, so nobody dare enter, PCs will still find the treasure later. If there are other denizens around, PCs when coming back find tracks on the ground, evidence that someone got it before they returned.

In both case don't reduce the game to dice rolled. Tell a story first. Dice are then rolled only to the extent that players don't feel subject to the DM's whims and bias, but also abides by "impartial rules" (even if he himself sets these rules in advance; e.g., this particular trap will trigger on a 1-4/d6, this other one on a 1-2/d6).

Quote from: drkrash;8594431) Traps. In B/X, a trap is activated on a 1-2 on d6. Do you use this? On the one hand, they make dungeons a little less dangerous...except when the party fails to activate one, and then retreats out the dungeon the same way it suddenly grabs them. Seems like a dick move.

I do, when I remember to.  I have a bad habit of forgetting to roll and have the trap go off automatically.  But, on the other hand, I also tend to have traps that are set off by something more specific than just "when someone walks down this hallway", so it's still possible for the PCs to get past without triggering the traps.

As for the trap failing to trigger on the way in, then catching you on the way out...  Not a dick move, IMO.  That's one of the reasons you should be checking for traps (and moving at the glacially slow pace of the standard movement rates) instead of simply running through the dungeon and assuming that, if no traps triggered when we went down this hallway, then the hallway must not be trapped.

Quote from: drkrash;8594432) Treasure that isn't captured. Suppose monsters are slain but treasures are not retrieved. Suppose the treasure in question is out in the open, like a chest. When the adventurers return on a subsequent delve, is the treasure still there? What is the treasure was hidden, but is now no longer guarded? Does it get discovered? (This presumes that the dungeon has sentient inhabitants aside from visiting adventurers.)

Rule 1 of a living game world is that things don't get frozen in carbonite the instant they're out of the PCs' sight.  The surviving dungeon inhabitants will be moving around and doing their thing while the PCs are away and, yes, that will tend to involve collecting newly-unguarded treasure.

Early in my last ACKS campaign, the PCs had a big fight with some lizardmen, then immediately retreated to town to heal up.  When they came back a week and a half later to finish off the rest of the tribe and collect its loot, all they found were some empty rooms and some scratches on the floor that looked like several large, heavy chests had been dragged away.  In their absence, the surviving lizardmen (mostly females and young; their original attack had killed all the warriors) took their possessions and left for someplace hopefully safer.

Quote from: drkrash;8594431)  Seems like a dick move.

2) Treasure that isn't captured.

1: Keep in mind that that is a check per person each time it is passed over. And its a 1-in-3 or 33% chance. That is fairly good chance. But considering some taps are just short of instant death. Its on the low side for a reason. Assuming even a small group of 4. That means theres a chance someone is going to trigger it. Now add in retainers and the chance is more likely.

Running over a missed trap on the way back out is not a "dick move". That is the players A: Failing to spot the whatever, and not taking precautions anyhow, and B: triggering it now. The PCs should be searching going in at least and that is a 1-in-6 for the non-dwarfs. (We gave the use of ye-ol 10ft pole as granting a +1 to the chance. so 2 and 3 respectively)

2: Think about where the treasure is and its current security or lack thereof. Was it the orcs secret stash hidden in the wall? Then it is possible it could sit there a long long time. If it is laying out in a hallway then is that hallway seeing activity? If yes then someones likely to pocket it and its now added to that creatures stash. Does it look valuable? If not it might get overlooked. An owlbear will more likely take the body and leave the items strewn about for example. A gnoll might leave behind some elven chain because it doesnt fit. and so on. A magic dagger is tossed aside because no one knows it is magic.

Thanks for the perspectives.

Continuing the trap issue: does it matter if the trap has a save attached? In other words, a pit that offers a save vs. Death Ray.  *Because* the trap offers a save, should it be presumed that it automatically goes off? Whereas a trap that only goes off on a 1-2 is also a trap that automatically affects its victim?

At the moment, the adventure I am using is an old location, so I am using the 1-2 to see if the trap activates, but if it does, I am also allowing the saving throw, and I'm wondering if this is de-fanging things too much.

(And, as always, of course I know I'm free to do whatever I want in my game, but I, like many people, like to at least keep to the intentions of the RAW as possible.)

IMO, there is the chance for detecting the trap *if* searched for. Then, give the trap a chance of being triggered; for some old rusted traps it's only 1-2/d6, but for new and well maintained traps, it's automatic. Then, determine according to the type of trap if it allows a saving throw or not (e.g., a 10x10 ft. pit-trap in a 15 ft wide corridor will allow a save; but a pit-trap that is the entire floor of the room will not allow a save).

What I suggest is that the GM decides, and that depends on the dungeon / circumstances, not a rule that is always the same no matter what.

Bear in mind that the PCs have the option of caching treasure that they can't haul away, instead of leaving where they found it. Doesn't mean it won't be plundered by someone else but could reduce the chance.

Quote from: drkrash;859501Continuing the trap issue: does it matter if the trap has a save attached? In other words, a pit that offers a save vs. Death Ray.  *Because* the trap offers a save, should it be presumed that it automatically goes off? Whereas a trap that only goes off on a 1-2 is also a trap that automatically affects its victim?

No.  Activation and saves are separate.  Even if the pit trap opens in the floor (the trap activates), you might not fall in (successful save).  A poison dart can shoot out of the wall (activated), but miss (saved).  Etc.

I run an old-school campaign at the school where I teach, so I'll tell you what I do.

With traps, I stick pretty closely to the 2-in-6 rule.  This can lead to unusual situations - one time I had a party of 8 PCs cross a pit trap not once, but TWICE without anyone triggering the trap.  They finally hit it the third time they passed through the intersection.  It was pretty funny, and my players thought so too (but they still didn't check for traps very often).  

As Turanil said, these traps are probably old, rusted, swollen with moisture, made by creatures that aren't very good at making traps, etc.  They aren't reliable, and keeping the trap around makes the dungeon feel dangerous whether the PCs are coming or going.

I don't think of it as a "dick move", but once I've written or prepared the adventure, I try to go into "friendly referee" mode - that is, I want the PCs to succeed, and will tend to rule in their favour in unclear circumstances, but my main job is to try to be a fair and impartial judge of how their actions affect the environment.  If they don't set off the trap until they're leaving the dungeon with their hard-won treasure, that's not me being a dick - that's just their bad luck/poor planning.

Quote from: drkrash;859501Continuing the trap issue: does it matter if the trap has a save attached? In other words, a pit that offers a save vs. Death Ray.  *Because* the trap offers a save, should it be presumed that it automatically goes off? Whereas a trap that only goes off on a 1-2 is also a trap that automatically affects its victim?

No, the trap only goes off on a 1-2.  I actually like traps with saving throws, and I usually add one in unless it makes no sense at all - players like feeling that they have a chance to avoid a trap even after it's been triggered, even if they should have been able to avoid the trap in the first place by being more careful.  So, for example, I normally allow a save vs. Death Ray to let a character who has triggered a pit trap to grab onto the edge.

Saving throws aren't very reliable, so it's not making things too easy when you allow them IMO.  If anything, the near-death experiences scare the players more than the deadly ones.

As far as treasure that isn't captured - I try to use a bit of common sense here.  Mostly, it depends on what creatures are nearby and what the situation of the treasure was.  Treasure that was hidden in a goblin's lair, for example, is quite likely to stay there for a long time, unless there are NPC adventurers also exploring the dungeon.  Treasure that wasn't hidden, but was guarded by a powerful monster, is very likely to be grabbed by intelligent monsters in the dungeon or NPC adventurers.

I also use dungeon restocking rules if the PCs return to a dungeon after a week or more away.  For every room cleared, I roll a d6, and on a 1, I populate the room with something from the wandering monster table.

A note on NPC adventurers - in my opinion, they should be a zero-sum game for the dungeon.  That is, sometimes NPC adventurers will find unguarded treasure and take it out of the dungeon, but just as often their dead bodies (and a similar amount of treasure, maybe even the same treasure) will be found in the lair of a tough monster.  That is, the presence of NPC adventurers shouldn't be a "fuck you" to the PCs so much as they should be another potential hazard (or potential ally) in the dungeon environment.

1) In tyoical dungeon circumstances it's amazing that traps work at all, so 1/3 triggering is pretty good.

2) There's both verisimilitude and an element of strategy in abandoned treasures getting claimed by someone else.

Gelatinous cubes are not all that sentient, but they are nigh-perfect "cleanup crew".

Quote from: drkrash;859501Continuing the trap issue: does it matter if the trap has a save attached? In other words, a pit that offers a save vs. Death Ray.  *Because* the trap offers a save, should it be presumed that it automatically goes off?

Threefold.
1: the PCs have a chance to detect it IF searching.
2: the PCs have a chance of triggering it IF they do something that activates it.
3: The trap does its thing. Either you make a save vs whatever, or you automatically take some damage. IE you automatically fall in the pit and take some damage, or you save vs stone or take some damage from the scythe.

Quote from: drkrash;8594431) Traps. In B/X, a trap is activated on a 1-2 on d6. Do you use this? On the one hand, they make dungeons a little less dangerous...except when the party fails to activate one, and then retreats out the dungeon the same way it suddenly grabs them. Seems like a dick move.

This is actually a very important rule. It means that the adventurers cannot rely on their marching order as their mechanism for deciding who will trigger a trip.

Consider a party of Alric, Barto, Charles, and Davi, traveling single-file through a dungeon corridor. Alric has the highest hp and best saving throws, so he travels 10' ahead of the rest of the group.

If traps are automatically triggered, then the adventurers can be confident that Alric will trigger anything and everything, and that Barto, Charles, and Davi are relatively safe. [Barring unusual trap designs with delayed triggers and so on, which are quite rare in published adventures]

However, if Alric has only a 2-in-6 chance of triggering the trap, then that means that Barto, Charles and Davi also share in the risk. It adds an additional level of strategic consideration to how the party should march.

Moreover, I interpet the 2-in-6 rule as also implicitly explaining how using a 10' pole works. The 10' pole has a 2-in-6 chance of triggering the trap *before* the character.

Assume that Alric is using a 10' pole to probe ahead for traps, with Barto following 5' behind, also using a 10' pole, with Charles and Davi just behind them. Assume that there is a tripwire-and-arrow trap.

Alric's pole has a 2-in-6 chance of triggering the tripwire. Then Barto's pole has a 2-in-6 chance of triggering the tripwire. Then Alric. Then Barto. Then Charles. Then Davi.