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I run a game with 7 players. They're a wonderful mix of n00bs and experienced players.

The thing is, as we add more players, it's getting increasingly hard for people to find a niche in the party.

Right now, for instance, we have 1 fighter, 1 scout, 1 warmage, 2 clerics, 1 sorcerer, and a druid. Heavy on the casters, yeah, I know. We've also retired a paladin, a ranger, and a monk, and have had a rogue and a monk get killed.

It's getting increasingly difficult for new PCs to join the party that are 1) different from previous characters the player has played in this campaign; 2) different from existing characters in the party; and 3) What the player wants to play.

When the party started, for instance, there was no rogue. The sorcerer started taking a couple levels, so they'd have SOME chance at disarming traps, etc. But very soon after that, a PC died and the player brought in a scout, and burned a feat making Open Lock and Disable Device class skills. So he's effectively the rogue of the party, and the sorcerer player ended up with an ineffective character. Due to multiclassing, bad spell choice, and bad feat choice, that sorcerer/rogue was practically useless.

I'm an easygoing DM, so I let her respec her character out to be a full sorcerer. Her character became roughly twice as effective, got extra spells, etc. However, she didn't spec herself out as a true blaster. She has scorching ray and a couple other attack spells, but also teleport, lesser geas, etc.

Then another player retired her ex-paladin and brought in a Warmage. Needless to say, she can blast the hell out of the enemies, dealing tremendous damange in just a few seconds.

So now my poor sorcerer player isn't the only arcane damage-dealer any more, and once again is upstaged by a new character. True, she wasn't optimized for blasting in the first place, but she was still the only one who did it at all. She's confided in me that it's very frustrating that every time she thinks she knows what she's doing with her character, somebody comes in with a new character who can do it better. I try to make her feel better by saying that, even if she doesn't do the most hit points of damage, simply her ability to teleport at will has proven very useful.

But really I'm facing a greater problem here. The fact that this happened twice to the same player is really coincidence. The problem is that, with 7 players, it's really hard for them NOT to step on each other's toes. It's really hard for anybody to find a niche and be the best at what they are. When people bring in a new character, they're torn between balancing out the party and playing the character they wanted.

Has anybody had to deal with this sort of situation before? It's kind of a headache for the poor DM who just wants to run his game... but it is my job to make sure all the players are enjoying themselves, too.

In the end, the players always had to balance it out for themselves.  Some people deal better with upstaging via role playing vs. number success, others don't.  Some people enjoy playing a jack of all trades back up and find unique situations to shine in, instead of a role.  Others just want a role.  You could talk it over with them and make sure people pay attention to it when a new character is made.  Considering the number of class combinations that have been tried, it looks like people are going to have to find variants or show there stuff via an interesting character instead of a unique class.
The sorceror should focus from now on on being the non damaging arcane caster since the battle mage is better at that so far.

I echo what XL said....encourage the sorcerer to be the utility spell specialist. She can take a decent defensive spell or 2, a decent offensive spell or 2, then just load up on teleport, fly, invis, charms/enchantments, illusions, etc. I'd tell her to look at ways she can make a big difference outside of combat, where the warmage wil be weak.

I agree with the notion that the players are going to have to deal with it themselves -- maybe with a nudge from the GM at creation time ("Just a thought, but Sally is already doing some nuking.  You won't stand out as uniquely, and it might not be a bad idea to chat with her, first.").
 
The best way for a player to stand out as unique is to genuinely play something unique and off the wall.  A couple examples from my own experience are a sorcerer with no offensive spells (any theme works well with a sorcerer) and a rogue who could have schooled any paladin on how to be devoutly LG.
 
There's a balance to be struck between party needs and player flavor.  It sounds like your player (the sorcerer) is leaning too far on the side of party need.

Quote from: Name LipsBut very soon after that, a PC died and the player brought in a scout, and burned a feat making Open Lock and Disable Device class skills.

What a waste of a feat Disable Device is a Scout class skill anyway and Open Lock? Well why did we invent the fireaxe?

I think our group banned the Warmage under the "I'm a better class than a single class Fighter or Sorcerer and a multiclass or a Fighter/Sorcerer" Rule, we invented.

He cast as a Sorcerer and gets the same number of spells per day as a Sorcerer, yet has better HD, it gets Thirteen 1st level combat spells known at 1st level, compared to the two the sorcerer is allowed to know. :brood: No wonder your sorcerer feels hard done too. It's like they threw away the only drawback of the Sorcerer class and to balance that they improved the HD and let it cast in armor. :imsorry:

Quote from: BagpussWhat a waste of a feat Disable Device is a Scout class skill anyway and Open Lock? Well why did we invent the fireaxe?

I'm not sure off the top of my head exactly what he did. He basically made his Scout into a rogue, as far as skills are concerned.

I'ld check that he's aware that Scouts get Disable Device as it was an Errata so he might have bought the feat when he didn't realise that halve of it was a complete waste. If so I'ld let him change it if I was you.

Seriously the Warmage is so good at blasting that you might as well not have a Sorcerer. That's the main reason we banned them, they are a particularly broken class.

6th level right the Sorcerer and Warmage can cast the same number of spells per day (assuming equal key stat). The Warmage knows the following spells

0 - 4 combat spells
1st - 13 combat spells
2nd - 11 combat spells
3rd -  10 combat spells
plus two extra utility spells one of 1st level the other 3rd level or lower.

The Sorcerer however knows

0 - 7 spells
1st - 4 spells
2nd -  2 spells
3rd - 1 spell

Now admittedly he's allowed a free choice but when your choice is so limited what's the point. "Hmm Lighting Bolt or Fireball for my 3rd level spell? Ah what's the point the Warmage has them both. I suppose I could get fly so I can sore above the battlefield to fire my other spells from positions the Warmage can't get to.... oh he's used his Advanced Learning to get Fly. Great... I'll get my coat"

Please someone show me how the Warmage is balanced... anyone?

My solution is let the player suicide the Sorcerer and have a totally new character. Let them play something like a Warforged or something equally balanced.

Quote from: BagpussHe cast as a Sorcerer and gets the same number of spells per day as a Sorcerer, yet has better HD, it gets Thirteen 1st level combat spells known at 1st level, compared to the two the sorcerer is allowed to know. :brood: No wonder your sorcerer feels hard done too. It's like they threw away the only drawback of the Sorcerer class and to balance that they improved the HD and let it cast in armor. :imsorry:

Yeah but the only thing you'll do is blast things into tiny bits. No utility spells.

I know, I played one until level 27.

Right but the Sorcerer doesn't get both utility spells and blast spells. He doesn't get enough known spells to do both effectively. Plus the Warmage does get some bonus spells that can be anything so if he wants to fly then at 6th level he can.

Maybe at high level being only a blaster is an issue but in the early game and even mid game he out classes the sorcerer at combat and lets be honest that is a very large part of the D&D game. Besides if it is utility you want then you go the Wizard route as they have an unresticted number of spells known, plus they get bonus feats.

If a sorcerer even tries to go the utility and blast route he'll probably find himself bettered by the Warlock. About the only use for a Sorcerer if you introduce the Warmage and Warlock is as a cheap version of a Bull's Strength and/or Cat's Grace wand, at least he can help the party as a whole unlike the Warlock and Warmage. But it doesn't strike me as a fun role, just being there as a cheerleader.

The until the Warlock and Warmage came along the Sorcerer was the class most people went if they were going to be a blasty wizard. Since the limited Known spells didn't matter too much if all you wanted to do was blast the enemy into little bits.

There is no reason to play a Sorcerer if the Warmage class is available.

Thank for reassuring my resolution of "NEVER allow ANYTHING not in the core-books in my game".
Especially not (prestige-)classes.....
(I might squint at a magic item or two..)

Quote from: BagpussThere is no reason to play a Sorcerer if the Warmage class is available.

You should see the warmage/scout gestalt character I made. Skirmish damage with ranged touch spells... mmmm.... :D

Yeah my I beliefly considered multiclassing my Warlock into Scout for the skirmish damage but the Eldrich Bolt goes up so quick it's not worth it but gestalt would make it an obvious choice.

Sorry I can't find a solution to your Sorcerer problem other than character suicide.

Bagpuss has a good point:  The sorcerer is a rather pathetic class.
 
I banned it right after UA came out and we went to spell points, so I'd forgotten that little detail.  Personally, I think it'd be better to average the strength (spells known) of the Warmage and the Sorcerer and make the class a bit more flexible.

Yeah modify the Sorcerer class is a solution I suppose. We've modified it in our games anyway, since no caster need to prepare spells in our games (a house rule I don't particular like but I was last to join the group). I think we raised it's hit dice to D6 and gave it more spells known per level.

You might want to speak with the player and see what bonuses you can both agree on.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing an Arcane caster with more than 2+Int skill points per level, and a decent range of class skills. The Sorcerer who is ment to have innate access to magic might suit that concept since they would have the time to learn other things.

I would probably up their HD to D6, Skill points to 4+Int, widen their class skills to include more that key of Charisma. And perhaps give an extra spell or even 2 known per level. You may even want to consider some bonus feats, although then the Wizard starts looking too naff.

Quote from: SobekBagpuss has a good point:  The sorcerer is a rather pathetic class.
 
I banned it right after UA came out and we went to spell points, so I'd forgotten that little detail.  Personally, I think it'd be better to average the strength (spells known) of the Warmage and the Sorcerer and make the class a bit more flexible.

I actually don't think the sorcerer is a pathetic class, I just think it's pathetic compared to warmage or warlock. I haven't played the warmage or warlock myself, but I was in a campaign with a warlock, and he was a kick-ass nuker that's for sure. I had never taken that close a look at the warmage, but I think I'd ban the warmage from my campaign, maybe the warlock too.

I might not be a good judge though because if I were gonna play an arcane caster, it would be a wizard. It's always been my favorite for casters, guess I'm just old school.

Perhaps letting the sorcerer player retire the sorcerer and pick up a wiz might be better...or even a fighter of some kind if the player's willing might be best. It is a dilemma that's for sure.

Then again maybe multi-classing is the answer. A sorcerer combined with rogue and the right spells is tough. Sorcerer and bard is a natural combination, and a sorcerer/ranger would be interesting too.

Quote from: SigmundThen again maybe multi-classing is the answer. A sorcerer combined with rogue and the right spells is tough. Sorcerer and bard is a natural combination, and a sorcerer/ranger would be interesting too.

There's actually a perfect hook here for her to start multiclassing, if she takes it.

They were in this tomb, and a ghost of a bygone king appeared and boomed "INVADERS HAVE BEEN PLUNDERING MY TOMB. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED. THEY MUST BE DESTROYED! WILL YOU DO THIS FOR ME?"

Typical party spokes person, "Well, first, who has been..."

"WILL YOU DO THIS FOR ME?" Yes, I cut him off and yelled this line.

So she, having established in the past that she has strong feelings about the defiling of tombs, jumped in with a firm "Yes!"

The ghost floated up to a pair of crossed scimitars on the wall, and brought one down and gave it to her, personally, and vanished.

This weapon is a (spoiler for my group)

Spoiler

+1 Keen Vorpal Scimitar. When she gets it identified I think she's going to pass out. :p And it's all hers, and nobody elses. She'll either have to burn a feat to get proficient with it, or she'll have to multiclass. If she goes this route, I'll allow the sword to be Vorpal on 17-20 when wielded by her, in order to make up for poor character build (and to represent the spirits of the dead aiding her). So it'll crit on a 15-20, and be Vorpal on an 18-20. :D

I'll talk with her after the scimitar is identified and let her know about these options. With her spells and wands, she's a decent backup damage dealer, her utility spells (and store of scrolls) make her useful outside of combat, and this weapon and some additional class levels could make her effective in melee, too, and complete the "jack of all trades, master of none" route.

On d4 hit points she ain't going into melee anytime soon, not if she wants to keep the character. She'll be dead with one hit, and very likely to be hit, due to the armour restrictions.

I'm going to suggest that you don't

Spoiler

use the scimitar as a way to level the playing field for the sorcerer, at least not in the way you intend it.

Instead, I'm going to suggest that it is simply a vehicle to a different type of leveling agent - another respec, this time into a houseruled cross between a sorcerer and a wizard:

This is how it would work - keep spells per day the same, but double spells known. However, that PC could still only "prepare" the old spells known (in effect, their known spells change every day, selected from a list twice as long as the original).

You can then use other tweaks to fit your game as needed for example:

Example Tweak) Sorcerers "dumbing down" spells that are related - for example, a sorcerer with greater dispel magic on their selected list would also by default have dispel magic on their list as a bonus. The same could be true of the teleportation tree, etc.

Quote from: EnkhiduI'm going to suggest that you don't

Spoiler

use the scimitar as a way to level the playing field for the sorcerer, at least not in the way you intend it.

Instead, I'm going to suggest that it is simply a vehicle to a different type of leveling agent - another respec, this time into a houseruled cross between a sorcerer and a wizard:

This is how it would work - keep spells per day the same, but double spells known. However, that PC could still only "prepare" the old spells known (in effect, their known spells change every day, selected from a list twice as long as the original).

sounds a bit like arcana evolved... ;)

seriously - If you use the scimitar as an equalizer (for combat), how will your other players feel about that?

I'm still thinking. I could just totally redo the scimitar...

After all, being handed the sword of an ancient king and told to avenge him of the graverobbers is a pretty cool scenario. I'd rather not give up the "tribal magic scimitar-wielding sorceress" coolness just becuase the rules don't mesh with it. Turns out the ancient king is of the same racial stock as herself (there are many human races in this world), and they traditionally practice ancestor worship (which is why she hates the idea of tombrobbing).

There's potential for coolness here.

And now that I've participated fully in the hijacking of my own thread, we might as well continue to explore it. :p

The latest thing I've thought of is the idea of having the king's ghost appear when the graverobber is killed, and inform her that she has done well, and her noble ways and honoring the deal has shamed him that he could not take action himself... whereapon he touches the blade and is absorbed into it.

But what powers would a blade possessed by the spirit of an ancient king have? Perhaps sometimes he takes over her body, wielding the sword through her? Perhaps she is granted certain powers?

There's gotta be some way to make this work that is, for lack of a better term, FUCKING COOL!

Quote from: Name LipsThe latest thing I've thought of is the idea of having the king's ghost appear when the graverobber is killed, and inform her that she has done well, and her noble ways and honoring the deal has shamed him that he could not take action himself... whereapon he touches the blade and is absorbed into it.

But what powers would a blade possessed by the spirit of an ancient king have? Perhaps sometimes he takes over her body, wielding the sword through her? Perhaps she is granted certain powers?

There's gotta be some way to make this work that is, for lack of a better term, FUCKING COOL!

[sblock]
howbout a +1 Intelligent Dancing Scimitar?

[/sblock]

Special powers and being possesed by the king are both cool, and might inspire her to alter her leveling path, make her interested in her character again, but I'd also include a cost or drawback to the powers/possession of the sword as well. That way your other players don't all clamor for the same treatment. I'd also consider letting her trade out some spells for ones which might aid her in melee combat. AC enhancers, stat boosters, Heroism, True Strike, Enlarge Person, Exp. Retreat (just in case), Haste, False Life, Daze Monster, Tasha's Hid. Laughter, Ghoul Touch, Displacement, Blink....shit, these are just from the PHB alone. There's lots of lower level spells that are useful in melee, and if she multis as a ranger or fighter she can get a decent ranged weapon to aid in combat as well, and still have some utility spells for social interaction or stealth or transportation as well. Heck, a magic scimitar wielding horse-archer who can summon her own spectral horse would be very cool.

Quote from: Thjalfi[sblock]
howbout a +1 Intelligent Dancing Scimitar?

[/sblock]

Woot, a very great idea.

Quote from: SigmundWoot, a very great idea.

I'm liking it too... :D

ok, so who's who in this (http://www.nothingland.com/showthread.php?t=1588) thread?

Quote from: Thjalfiok, so who's who in this (http://www.nothingland.com/showthread.php?t=1588) thread?

I think they'd bleed me if I told you who plays the sorcerer. ;)

Quote from: Name LipsI think they'd bleed me if I told you who plays the sorcerer. ;)

Kind of an obvious pun there.

Quote from: ThjalfiKind of an obvious pun there.

I don't have an inkling what you're talking about.

ok, this particular revalation makes me reissue my question from post number 19:

How will your other players feel about giving that particularly major piece of loot to this character?

Quote from: Thjalfiok, this particular revalation makes me reissue my question from post number 19:

How will your other players feel about giving that particularly major piece of loot to this character?

I don't think people will mind, for two reasons.
First, it was clear the way things were presented that ANYBODY could have ended up with that sword. I'm not playing favorites.
Second, the player seems, at times, bound and determined to have an ineffective character. From feats to skills to spell choice to equipment, she's not tricked out at all. It'd be nice seeing her having some proper fun.

Quote from: Name LipsI'm liking it too... :D

ok, so getting back to this idea then:
[sblock]so the alignment of the weapon should come out as whatever the sorceress' alignment is - or negative levels ensue.

how powerful of an intelligent weapon did you want?

as it stands, the +1 & Dancing components bring it up to a +5 bonus, which is a few bonus points off from where you had it before, so you've got some room to add powers to it.

I'd suggest:

• abilities: two at 16, one at 10. (i'd suggest good cha and wisdom)
• Speech (both speaking and reading)
• 60ft Darkvision & hearing

3 lesser powers

• cure moderate wounds 3/day, caster level 3 would be a good one of these, since you've got a low hp's wielder
• 10 ranks in the knowledge of your choice (good for filling in anything you want the players to know)
• Item can cast major image 1/day (for fun roleplaying opportunities)

Ego: 14

total intelligence GP cost is +23,000 GP, added on top of the +5 bonus, so...
Equivalent to a +6 weapon, by the numbers. still lower than the +7 equivalent keen vorpal scimitar. you could make that up in additional powers, making it a +2 scimitar, or just ignore it. ;) [/sblock]

Quote from: BagpussPlus the Warmage does get some bonus spells that can be anything so if he wants to fly then at 6th level he can.

Actually, the Warmage bonus spells are evocation-only. Given that their spell list already is pretty evocation-heavy, it doesn't really leave them all that many options for their advanced learning spells.

Fair enough, but the main point about there is no point being a sorcerer pretty much still stands.