On this thread http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2300 there was much ado about abzu.  So, should we believe the hype?

This is the game with artha, right?  What's up with that?

For stuff that's highly lauded by the Forge fellows, it's really not that bad. The basic game comes in two small and very handy books, one with the basic system, one about character creation. The latter is done with some kind of lifepath/career system and works out quite fine.

The system is based on dice pools with a success mechanism. There are several subsystems similar to each other for extended task resolution. One about debates, one about ranged combat and the most expansive one about good ol' melee. The distinguishing element of these is "scripting". You don't tell the GM what you're doing this "round", you're planning ahead and write down your actions for the next three, the opponent does the same and then you'll go through the three exchanges. Rocks-paper-scissors for the literate...

The subsystems have quite some options, especially melee. Several versions of attack and defend are possible, you can change the distance between the combatants and it's possible to replace useless actions at a price. After a while you'll get quite fast writing stuff down, but it's still a cumbersome pause at the start of each round. Then again, combat is rather deadly so you won't need that many rounds.

Artha is basically yet another force/ass saver/life/karma point variant. This in combination with some personality mechanics is what endears it to the thematic crowd, although in more truly independent days it would "just" be a normal, run-of-the-mill small-press RPG.

More questions:
Does artha mean anything or is it just a made up word?
Does the combat play pretty quickly?  
Why do you script three rounds at a time, instead of two or four? Is there a rationale for it, or is it just a compromise between 0 and too_many?  Do you pick your next three actions each round, or do you play out all three then start again?  I might like the idea of picking three, then at the beginning of the second you pick your fourth, etc., and maybe incorporate something like a penalty for changing of intent after you've declared an action (I'm thinking RQ2/3 here with strike rank penalties for changing intent, for reference)... do they have anything like that?  Any more details about combat crunch would be appreciated (size modifiers, how's ranged combat work, damage, etc).
And, while I'm at it, just a couple of more questions, about the life paths, are they pretty setting independent?  I think I read somewhere that burning wheel has an implied setting only, and I would think that that would be most evident in the life paths.
Finally, how's burning empires compare system-wise?

Artha is a sanskrit word:

Quotereferring to the idea of material prosperity. In Hinduism, artha is one of the four goals of life, known as purusharthas. It is considered to be a noble goal as long as it follows the dictates of Vedic morality. The concept includes achieving widespread fame, garnering wealth and having an elevated social standing. It is the second lowest rung on the ladder of reincarnation, above kama (physical or emotional pleasure) but below dharma (righteousness) and moksha (salvation).

Combat plays pretty quickly in my experience, but I found it very intuitive. If you've played Ace of Aces or the old En Garde!, I find it reminiscent of those.

I think the three actions thing works well to give you that element of player skill. I know some people have played with scripting one action at a time, but you might have better luck asking about that at the BW forums (//www.burningwheel.org).

Ranged combat uses a scripting system as well.

The lifepaths do indeed strongly delineate a setting. It's a harsh world.

Quote from: algaubleMore questions:
Does artha mean anything or is it just a made up word?

Sanskrit, one of the four hinduistic life-goals, this one relating to material prosperity. Fame is one of the aspects...

Quote from: algaubleDoes the combat play pretty quickly?

The total time spent is okay. There aren't that many rounds usually, unless you're just circling around. The resolution is reasonably quick, too.
It just seems to take ages, sometimes. Even with checkboxes for the combat options, it'll take some time to plan three exchanges at once and this is a definite lull in combat, as for a few seconds nothing happens. This gets worse if some of your players just aren't used to writing by hand anymore. I cramp pretty soon. It helps if the GM is very familiar with the system and able to jost down his notes rapidly, then he can use the planning stage of one player to resolve the combat of others.

It works quite fine with a small amount of combatants. Planning exchanges is nice, but I found that The Riddle of Steel offers pretty much the same options and resolves more easily...

Quote from: algaubleWhy do you script three rounds at a time, instead of two or four? Is there a rationale for it, or is it just a compromise between 0 and too_many?

I guess it's a compromise. And while there are three exchanges, the player might have more than three actions. So you might attack twice in the first round, once more in the second one and defend in the last exchange. I don't have the books here at work, but if I remember correctly, you can change an action to another, but lose the following action.
Combined with your normal action, you can script whether you keep your distance, close, withdraw, charge... This makes movement rather dynamic and the reach of weapons becoms a major factor.
Damage depends on the margin of success you get. Armor was a little weird, no straight subtraction from damage. If no one else chimes in, I'll get back to you once I have the rules in front of me.
There were some interesting combat scripts in the forums of the Burning Wheel website.

Quote from: algaubleAnd, while I'm at it, just a couple of more questions, about the life paths, are they pretty setting independent?  I think I read somewhere that burning wheel has an implied setting only, and I would think that that would be most evident in the life paths.

The backgrounds are divided by race. Humans have a standard medieval background, divided by social status and the usual careers available. So you might start out as a gutter snipe and progress to thief. The starting power level is determined by the amount of free careers you get.

The elves, dwarves and orcs have some pretty strange career choices. If I remember correctly, one of the orcish one was "He Who Rules By Whip And Sword" or something similar.

The non-human races all had some personality mechanism tying in with the rules. The orcs increased their rage until they can't control it anymore, the elves increasingly pined for the fjords...

Quote from: SosthenesSanskrit, one of the four hinduistic life-goals, this one relating to material prosperity. Fame is one of the aspects...

Isn't Artha the Elvish name for Earth in Tolkien? Or was that Arda?

Quote from: SosthenesThe non-human races all had some personality mechanism tying in with the rules. The orcs increased their rage until they can't control it anymore, the elves increasingly pined for the fjords...

I don't know why - Last Fjord I had spent all its time in the shop...



-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIsn't Artha the Elvish name for Earth in Tolkien? Or was that Arda?

Well, it could be a malapropism of the Fonz' first name. Which would explain why it's so cool to have it.

Quote from: flyingmiceI don't know why - Last Fjord I had spent all its time in the shop...

:rimshot:

Quote from: SosthenesWell, it could be a malapropism of the Fonz' first name. Which would explain why it's so cool to have it.


:rimshot:

you say "malapropism" I say "correct pronunciation"

Edit: By the way, thanks for the responses.  If there's anyone still reading, I'm still interested in learning more about BW and BE, as I've read many good things but am on the fence about buying.  If only Luke was doing a demo game at a con somewhere...

Quote from: algaubleIf only Luke was doing a demo game at a con somewhere...

If you're on the East Coast, he's doing demos all day long at MACE:

http://www.justusproductions.com/Mace.aspx

-Andy

This post on the BW forums gives some sense of the way the game can work to deal with things outside of combat and the other minisystems. It's Luke Crane and a buddy running through some 1-1 sessions building up to the goal of killing the last wizard on earth.

http://burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3334&highlight=

Cool stuff IMO. And for anyone who feels the urge to jump in to say that the style of play is not revolutionary and so we are obliged to hate on the game: suck a cloaca.

Quote from: mywinningsmileCool stuff IMO. And for anyone who feels the urge to jump in to say that the style of play is not revolutionary and so we are obliged to hate on the game: suck a cloaca.

Hivers, in Traveller, have cloacas.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hivers, in Traveller, have cloacas.

I've toyed with the idea of calling my first-born cloaca. Also sprogs two through twelve. Such a lovely word that doesn't get enough exposure.

Do the Hivers get bonuses to hit-and-run excretion?

Quote from: mywinningsmileCool stuff IMO. And for anyone who feels the urge to jump in to say that the style of play is not revolutionary and so we are obliged to hate on the game: suck a cloaca.

Then please enlighten me where the revolutionary stuff is in that thread. Having rules for situations where we just played before? Making shit up on the fly? Where would GURPS fail me in that situation?

Can't we just have games that are crafted well? Where does the need for something "revolutionary" come from. Because all the current stuff we do is as bad as absolute monarchism?

Quote from: SosthenesThen please enlighten me where the revolutionary stuff is in that thread.

:eek:  You actually, you know, sucked it?

To make it clear, this is the kind of play you can get out of this game. Large components of it could be achieved with other systems, some of it is more uniquely due to the system used (true for most games, no?). I offered the example so the OP could see aspects of the game in-play outside of the Duel of Wits, scripted combat, lifepaths and artha stuff that often captures screentime. I don't give a damn how revolutionary it is, just helping another gamer out.

Why are you getting your hate in my fun? :rolleyes:

Quote from: mywinningsmile:eek:  You actually, you know, sucked it?

Try everything once.

Quote from: mywinningsmileTo make it clear, this is the kind of play you can get out of this game. Large components of it could be achieved with other systems, some of it is more uniquely due to the system used (true for most games, no?). I offered the example so the OP could see aspects of the game in-play outside of the Duel of Wits, scripted combat, lifepaths and artha stuff that often captures screentime. I don't give a damn how revolutionary it is, just helping another gamer out.

For someone not familiar with BW, that thread can be highly confusing. It read kinda like the gaming I did when I was 12 and ninjas were the fashion of the day. (Which I'm not saying that it is -- or isn't -- but that it could look like this to someone unfamiliar with the game)

And yeah, I probably read your statement about "revolutionary gaming" the wrong way (need caffeine...). I thought you were implying that anyone who doesn't think this is revolutionary, should inhale from posterior openings. My bad.

Quote from: mywinningsmileWhy are you getting your hate in my fun? :rolleyes:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.