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The Aces & Eights vs. Coyote Trail thread got me to thinking. I own both games and neither of them really strike the right cord with me. I also have a lifelong love of Western fiction, movies and RPGs. So, the obvious conclusion to reach is - create my own dang Old West RPG.

All that being said, I do have some limited game design experience but I have never created an RPG from scratch. With that in mind, I would like to turn to the keen minds of theRPGsite to find out what you would like to see in an Old West RPG.

Here some of my initial questions/ideas/thoughts.

- style will be heroic/cinematic with perhaps an option for more realistic damage results, etc.
- Not as crunchy as A&8's but more crunchy than Coyote Trail. Maybe have 'plug and play' sections of rules to add/remove crunch.
- Should it incorporate 'genre' elements in the rules like cards and poker chips or should it be a straight dice system?
- How capable should characters start out?
- Should there be an experience/improvement system?
- What kind of 'special abilities' system should it include, if any?
- Should it include rules for non-realistic elements like magic/monsters?

All I have for now. Eagerly awaiting your comments...

You have literally described Savage Worlds. Their Deadlands setting is old west with fantasy elements, magic/zombies/occult/etc. Take that stuff away and you just have an old west setting exactly as you described.

Quote from: Deathbydoughnut;787278You have literally described Savage Worlds. Their Deadlands setting is old west with fantasy elements, magic/zombies/occult/etc. Take that stuff away and you just have an old west setting exactly as you described.

Save Worlds is a good system and one that I have run before but it is still somewhat lighter than what I am looking to build and the point of my post is after all to get feedback on building a new game and not just suggestions on what existing RPG to use. Thanks though!

I have always though a Careers system like WFRP would fit the western genre well - basically place the emphasis that on the frontier you end up taking a lot of different paths.

Quote from: jadrax;787286I have always though a Careers system like WFRP would fit the western genre well - basically place the emphasis that on the frontier you end up taking a lot of different paths.

Wow! Consider idea stolen! Start out as a Cowboy, switch to a Cattle Rustler, etc. I LIKE it!

For me Poker Cards and Poker Chips are a must.

After using them in classic Deadlands it just feels wrong playing a Western RPG without them having some sort of game related/mechanical effect.

Also

One thing I'd like to see modeled in such a game is some sort of mechanic to model the high noon stand off fast draw trope.

If people are watching the duel, then you don't want to be the first one to draw and shoot, as you'd be the murderer in that case. But if you draw after the opponent, but beat him to the shot then it's just self defences (sure that could be argued in court, but it's a heroic styled Wild West game).

Some sort of statistics called "Grit" or "Cool" is how I'd imagine it. And each duelist rolls against a gradually increasing target number till one of them fails and they have to draw first. I'd have it that the duelists have to agree to the "Showdown" to activate this rolloff.

In d20 terms it would be something like starting at a target number of 10, Adding your +Grit stat bonus (whatever that may be) and having to meet or roll above the target number. And after each Gunfighter rolls and passes, the target number goes up bu 1. So next round it would be a 11+ then a 12+ and so on till someone fails their roll and has to shoot first.

First Roll is a wide shot of the PC, next roll is a wide shit of the NPC, the next toll is a close up of the PC's gun hand, the roll after that one is a closeup of a bead of sweat on the NPC's brow. All the while you can hear the Sergio Leone ballad playing in the background.

If they tie and both fail at the same time then they both shoot at the same time, and the witnesses say it was to fast to tell who shot first. Or 1/2 would say the Player Character shot first, and the other 1/2 would say no it was the NPC who shot first.

I think it would be a really fun mechanic and build tension and suspense.

One thing a good western game must have for me is a Facedown rule like CP2020 had.
Two characters could just face each other down (taking their own willpower and reputation into consideration), and the loser had a steep penalty on actions against the winner of the facedown.
What this allows for is a slow escalation chain that builds up to combat after several encounters, rather than a quick-draw shootout contest one minute after the whitehats and the local blackhat big cheese meet for the first time (which is the most likely come-out when gamers are being gamers, and there is little law and order in the early west). Whenever there is a facedown, you will have one party that is eager to back off rather than to be drawn into an uphill fight, and a winning side that has no more reason to start something still possibly dangerous.

And a cinematic game, Fanning. There must be a way to geek six blackhats within 3 seconds with nothing but a trusty Peacemaker and a steady gun hand.

Supernatural elements are at best optional and subtle, unless you go for gonzo genre mixture like Deadlands did. Coyote Trail hits there a sweet spot for me with its medicines and rituals that have mechanical benefit, but might as well be purely psychological and do not make for a complete character on their own.

Quote from: Gwarh;787327One thing I'd like to see modeled in such a game is some sort of mechanic to model the high noon stand off fast draw trope.

If people are watching the duel, then you don't want to be the first one to draw and shoot, as you'd be the murderer in that case. But if you draw after the opponent, but beat him to the shot then it's just self defences (sure that could be argued in court, but it's a heroic styled Wild West game).

TSR's Boot Hill RPG did that in the 1970's. The main complaint about Boot Hill is that it doesn't have all of the character depth that folks seem to want, but instead is more of a combat simulator. (It was designed to be a miniatures battle game, after all.) They fixed some of that in the later editions, but I still like 1E best of all.

I agree that Poker is a necessary component. It makes playing via chat a hassle but it's so atmospheric as to be worth it.

There was actually one system I read recently, Gunslingers and Gamblers, that used poker dice and based your success off of the hand you rolled (letting you make rerolls equal to what would be your bonus in other systems.) Something similar with actual cards seems like it would be very satisfying.

A proper Old West RPG should have a fairly high mortality rate, coupled with a "Next of Kin" system where a dead character could be copied and immediately re-used as a new character, with slight tweaks, as a brother (or sister).

So that way, if Leland Hawkins gets killed in a gunfight, the next session the rest of the group can meet his younger brother Winston Hawkins, who bears Leland a more-than-passing resemblance and arrives with a grudge against his brother's killer(s).

There's nothing stopping players and GMs from introducing family members in this regard, but the nice thing about this proposal is that it would systematize it, letting characters carry over some experience, and make it less odd that exactly the same character with a different name shows up.

If you have an affinity for OD&D, I would take its core and build on top of it. It's that versatile I think (point in case: SWN, RQ, RIFTS, etc.).

What I personally would like to see in an old west game:
- Creative use of Poker cards for initiative
- Duel mechanisms
- Either flavourful archetypes or a distinctive, but simple skill system, so each character sheet tells an abstract story right up front
- Fun implementation of horseback riding
- Honour and Courage as stats or some form of currency in-game

Quote from: Jason D;787613So that way, if Leland Hawkins gets killed in a gunfight, the next session the rest of the group can meet his younger brother Winston Hawkins, who bears Leland a more-than-passing resemblance and arrives with a grudge against his brother's killer(s).

Of course coupled with a random number of siblings at character creation. So basically the clone system of Paranoia -- just in the old west.

Melan has a new "D&D in the 17th century with pretty strong religious/supernatural elements" game available in Hungarian, which might make a good base for a Wild West conversion. AND it already uses Hungarian cards (a.k.a. Bavarian, German, Wilhelm Tell cards) for dealing with the Devil, could be replaced by a poker-based system.

Unfortunately, there's no English version as of now, not even an abridged one.

Quote from: Premier;787643Melan has a new "D&D in the 17th century with pretty strong religious/supernatural elements" game available in Hungarian, which might make a good base for a Wild West conversion. AND it already uses Hungarian cards (a.k.a. Bavarian, German, Wilhelm Tell cards) for dealing with the Devil, could be replaced by a poker-based system.

Unfortunately, there's no English version as of now, not even an abridged one.

Then i order him to do one!

Quote from: Jason D;787613A proper Old West RPG should have a fairly high mortality rate, coupled with a "Next of Kin" system where a dead character could be copied and immediately re-used as a new character, with slight tweaks, as a brother (or sister).

Wow--that's a great idea! And very in-genre, too, since you always have folks in Westerns showing up to avenge their family.

Maybe there could be a "Next of Kin" table to determine what alterations to the character you'd make, and what kind of relative they'd be (Random roll encouraged of course, but you could always choose)
1. Older (+Cool or whatever you call your mental attribute)
2. Younger (+Guts or whatever you call your physical attribute)
3. Distant (maybe bonus amount of wealth or a non-standard weapon)
4. Presumed Dead (hmm not sure, perhaps a social ramification?)
5. Twin (stats are the same, but you can choose to trade a point in any stat)
6. Blood Brother (adopted into family, so stats start the same but maybe a stat adjustment, like with Twin)

So frex, Calamity Annie is cruelly gunned down by the outlaw Black Strider. Annie's player rolls a 3 on the NoK table, and later that week (or next session) her Distant Cousin Wild Jane rides into town. Wild Jane lives off in a different territory with different customs, so while Annie carried a rifle, her cousin Wild Jane wields a mean bullwhip! Now she's hellbent on revenge...

It would also be cool if there was a small chance that this applies to enemies as well. Not sure how to apply it though. Like if Wild Jane sends Black Strider's coach into the canyon and kills the outlaw, there's a chance of Strider' big brother or presumed dead son to show up down the line, with Strider's stats and the adjustments assigned by the table.

SO MANY GOOD IDEAS...scribble...scribble...scribble

Definitely thinking of going old-school in mechanics at least to some degree. Roll a D20, add stuff and try to beat a target number is just easy and intuitive.

Thinking of doing away with traditional attributes. Do you really care that your PC has an Accuracy of 18 or do you just care that the bonus for that attribute is +3?

Quote from: Mr. Kent;787687Wow--that's a great idea! And very in-genre, too, since you always have folks in Westerns showing up to avenge their family.

Maybe there could be a "Next of Kin" table to determine what alterations to the character you'd make, and what kind of relative they'd be (Random roll encouraged of course, but you could always choose)
1. Older (+Cool or whatever you call your mental attribute)
2. Younger (+Guts or whatever you call your physical attribute)
3. Distant (maybe bonus amount of wealth or a non-standard weapon)
4. Presumed Dead (hmm not sure, perhaps a social ramification?)
5. Twin (stats are the same, but you can choose to trade a point in any stat)
6. Blood Brother (adopted into family, so stats start the same but maybe a stat adjustment, like with Twin)

So frex, Calamity Annie is cruelly gunned down by the outlaw Black Strider. Annie's player rolls a 3 on the NoK table, and later that week (or next session) her Distant Cousin Wild Jane rides into town. Wild Jane lives off in a different territory with different customs, so while Annie carried a rifle, her cousin Wild Jane wields a mean bullwhip! Now she's hellbent on revenge...

It would also be cool if there was a small chance that this applies to enemies as well. Not sure how to apply it though. Like if Wild Jane sends Black Strider's coach into the canyon and kills the outlaw, there's a chance of Strider' big brother or presumed dead son to show up down the line, with Strider's stats and the adjustments assigned by the table.

I like this!

Such a chart might also include "Famous" as a category, creating situations where a character is killed and their much more famous/infamous cousin/sibling/whatever shows up.

I rather liked TSR's Boot Hill, though it was more a scirmish game than an RPG. Fairly lethal  with some good underlying mechanics for morale and a fairly lethal system to boot.

Currently I am playtesting a new expansion/side game for Blackwater Gulch.

Also the "Legends of" series based of The Fantasy Trip has a western version. Legends of the Untamed West. Though only one solo module for it so far. Core rules are free though so can check it out without having to drop cash just to find out.

Include a section on the actual history of the Old West and one on the genre history of Westerns. The actual historical Cowboy period lasted less than a generation, but it is considered a cornerstone of the Mythology of the United States and has a lot packed in there, so it should be unpacked and described a bit in order to provide some great inspirational material for gaming.

Jason, I like that Famous option! When Wild Jane bites it whilst trying to foil Buck Strider's train robbery, her uncle Thaddeus Hawley, war hero, decides to avenge her with blood...

***

I'd definitely include some sort of Random Settlement table in the game, with things like

Features (fort, mission, mine, rail stop)
Complications (Gold rush! Plague! Terrorized by banditos!)
Name (roll 1d10 on each list and match!)
1. Coyote/ 2. Bronco/ 3. Sunset/ 4. Buffalo/ 5. Rattler/ 6. Silver/ 7. Diamond/ 8. Moon/ 9. Blessed/ 10. Storm

1. Mesa/ 2. Gulch/ 3. Canyon/ 4. Butte/ 5. Valley/ 6. Town/ 7. Bluffs/ 8. Hill/ 9. City/ 10. Point

(Welcome to Sunset Valley, Diamondtown, and Rattler Canyon!)

If you have a name generator in the back with Spanish names, you could give the option of rolling on it and prefixing San or Santa to it for the name.

Quote from: LibraryLass;787593I agree that Poker is a necessary component. It makes playing via chat a hassle but it's so atmospheric as to be worth it.

There was actually one system I read recently, Gunslingers and Gamblers, that used poker dice and based your success off of the hand you rolled (letting you make rerolls equal to what would be your bonus in other systems.) Something similar with actual cards seems like it would be very satisfying.

Gunslingers & Gamblers is IMHO a somewhat underappreciated game in the concise-but-fairly-complete western RPG niche. There's also a version that uses the Streamline system, a non-BRP d100-based rule set. The latter's the one I picked up because I am ignorant about poker but I can see why the poker-savvy would prefer the poker dice version.

The best thing I remember about Boot Hill was the list of famous (and not so famous) real life gunslingers and stats for them.  I realize that's inherently subjective, but it was really fun comparing different people and their relative strengths and weaknesses and run gunfights with them.  I don't think I've come across any other Old West games with that feature.

Quote from: LibraryLass;787593I agree that Poker is a necessary component. It makes playing via chat a hassle but it's so atmospheric as to be worth it.

I should note that while, by around the time of the Civil war, the game of poker (five card draw/stud, NOT the fucking monstrosity they call 'texas hold'em') was fairly widespread throughout the U.S., it was always more of a Southern game.

The most popular card game of the "wild west", by a long shot, was not Poker. It was Faro.

Quote from: Flashman;788066The best thing I remember about Boot Hill was the list of famous (and not so famous) real life gunslingers and stats for them.  I realize that's inherently subjective, but it was really fun comparing different people and their relative strengths and weaknesses and run gunfights with them.  I don't think I've come across any other Old West games with that feature.

The Top Trumps Western Gunfighters deck ?
those two sources taught be about John Wesley Hardin well the fiction behind JWH at least.

Quote from: Jason D;787613A proper Old West RPG should have a fairly high mortality rate, coupled with a "Next of Kin" system where a dead character could be copied and immediately re-used as a new character, with slight tweaks, as a brother (or sister).

So that way, if Leland Hawkins gets killed in a gunfight, the next session the rest of the group can meet his younger brother Winston Hawkins, who bears Leland a more-than-passing resemblance and arrives with a grudge against his brother's killer(s).

There's nothing stopping players and GMs from introducing family members in this regard, but the nice thing about this proposal is that it would systematize it, letting characters carry over some experience, and make it less odd that exactly the same character with a different name shows up.

This is essential. The reason 1E/2E Boot Hill is a terrific wild west game (I would say the best, if you judge by what it feels like to play or run a session) is that gun fights are seriously deadly. I'm not sure I've ever seen a player character survive more than a couple of rowdy adventures. Remove that, and it starts to feel like story gaming in the wild west, which doesn't interest me.

If the system in old BH seems to antiquated, I suggest BH3 or get a copy of Behind Enemy Lines (basically Traveller rules in WW2) and dial back the tech by 70 years (replace hand grenades with dynamite, HMG's with gattling guns, etc.).

Quote from: Larsdangly;788513This is essential. The reason 1E/2E Boot Hill is a terrific wild west game (I would say the best, if you judge by what it feels like to play or run a session) is that gun fights are seriously deadly. I'm not sure I've ever seen a player character survive more than a couple of rowdy adventures. Remove that, and it starts to feel like story gaming in the wild west, which doesn't interest me.

If the system in old BH seems to antiquated, I suggest BH3 or get a copy of Behind Enemy Lines (basically Traveller rules in WW2) and dial back the tech by 70 years (replace hand grenades with dynamite, HMG's with gattling guns, etc.).

I'm not even sure that the BH system is that antiquated. Around six years ago I ran a few sessions of BH 3rd edition for my group, and we had a great time. No one complained that the mechanics were broken or restrictive.

Quote from: RPGPundit;788472I should note that while, by around the time of the Civil war, the game of poker (five card draw/stud, NOT the fucking monstrosity they call 'texas hold'em') was fairly widespread throughout the U.S., it was always more of a Southern game.

The most popular card game of the "wild west", by a long shot, was not Poker. It was Faro.

Yes, but

• Few people know how to play Faro anymore. Poker is still widely played enough that any grown adult at least knows how it's done.
• Genre emulation often has nothing to do with realism.
• It's always poker in the movies (except Tombstone).
• The death of Wild Bill Hickok, 'nuff said.

Another nice resource was the old Avalon Hill wargame Gunslinger. I never liked the game much, but the mapboard was pretty cool because it had a nice map of a town with wooden "sidewalks" and so on.

And a nice wilderness map is the Outdoor Survival map that many old schoolers already own for their OD&D games.

Just a thought.

Quote from: Flashman;788066The best thing I remember about Boot Hill was the list of famous (and not so famous) real life gunslingers and stats for them.  I realize that's inherently subjective, but it was really fun comparing different people and their relative strengths and weaknesses and run gunfights with them.  I don't think I've come across any other Old West games with that feature.

In my Coyote Trail campaign several years back, in order to accurately reflect history, I simply ruled that Wyatt Earp could never be hit by a bullet in combat, and Doc Holliday never missed.

Quote from: finarvyn;788864Another nice resource was the old Avalon Hill wargame Gunslinger. I never liked the game much, but the mapboard was pretty cool because it had a nice map of a town with wooden "sidewalks" and so on.

And it is still against the law here in Amarillo to spit on wooden sidewalks....:D

Quote from: RPGPundit;789157In my Coyote Trail campaign several years back, in order to accurately reflect history, I simply ruled that Wyatt Earp could never be hit by a bullet in combat, and Doc Holliday never missed.

Let's call this "Boot Hill Diceless RPG." :)

Quote from: finarvyn;789536Let's call this "Boot Hill Diceless RPG." :)

I think that the western genre could lend itself to a diceless rpg format.

If I created a Western game it would need to include

i) Rules for coolness under fire
ii) A Traveller style lifepath Chargen
iii) A raise system for initiative - something like (off the top of my head)
   * You draw an unrevealed card
   * You "bet" on that card with the chips being an action pool or similar
   * You can raise and reraise that pool
   * the Highest bet acts first but the card you drew affects the action pool you have left
iv) stats for all the movie Wild West figures rather than the real ones

Quote from: jibbajibba;789855If I created a Western game it would need to include

i) Rules for coolness under fire
ii) A Traveller style lifepath Chargen
iii) A raise system for initiative - something like (off the top of my head)
   * You draw an unrevealed card
   * You "bet" on that card with the chips being an action pool or similar
   * You can raise and reraise that pool
   * the Highest bet acts first but the card you drew affects the action pool you have left
iv) stats for all the movie Wild West figures rather than the real ones

If I recall correctly, the first of these and something similar to the second are in Aces & Eights.

As someone who has spent most of his life in Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma, I am always curious (and usually amused) at what people think these places are really like.

For a game, it will all boil down to what look and feel you are shooting for...pun intended...  Are you wanting Classical Hollywood westerns like Stage Coach or Rio Bravo or Red River, Spaghetti westerns like The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, Modern westerns like Open Range, something more realistic, or something including the  paranormal (Jonah Hex)?

For career paths, what would you want in there?  Doc Holliday was a freaking dentist with an aptitude for killing. Bat Masterson grew up on a farm, apprenticed as a surveyor, hunted buffalo, became a lawman, and then retired as a sports writer in New York City.  Wyatt Earp also farmed, studied law, hunted buffalo, became a lawman, spent many years as a dilettante to his rich common-law wife, and ended his days as a movie consultant in Hollywood.

I'd think what you'd need is some kind of random or semi-random "shit you've done" thing, where careers wouldn't be so much like character class, as they would be experiences that you take away skills or bonuses from, depending on how long you've done each of them.

So maybe something Traveller-esque.

Quote from: RPGPundit;789845I think that the western genre could lend itself to a diceless rpg format.

Please write this. Please.

Quote from: Brad;790780Please write this. Please.

Well, you never know...