Greetings!

Somewhat loosely related to my discussion on magical effects on a broad range of animals and creatures, more so beyond the traditional humanoids and monsters, is considering the effects of fantasy and magic upon races and cultures that develop in the air--an aerial environment of flying creatures; in the subterranean world, far underground; and under the water, whether such are under lakes and rivers, or under the waters of the ocean--an environment for amphibians and water-breathing races and cultures.

In usual game books, some development has been given for subterranean worlds, and yet, it could be argued that even there, there hasn't been too much.

I think it is intriguing to consider what kinds of societies and cultures would develop for flying creatures, say bird-like races, and insect-like races that fly. Then, of course, subterranean cultures, and amphibian cultures, and entirely water-breathing cultures.

How would their economies and society develop? Interestingly, how would these kinds of fantastic cultures, and weird economies, interrelate and effect societies and cultures that live in the normal surface world?

Have you developed such fantastic elements in detail for your own game world?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I fell in love with Dark Sun when it was first released.  My brother was really interested in it.  We really didn't get to play it as much as I'd hoped.  I remember being very busy with track, cross country, and high school girls.  It wasn't until years later with 4e that I got to really play in Athas.  From the onset it was obvious why I loved it so much: Dark Sun limited your campaign.  Just like adding something like guns or magic changes the world, taking things away, like water and shade, really changes the world in big ways.  I played with this idea in my long-running Spelljammer campaign and produced several notable worlds.  Because the players wanted an all Elf campaign made Elves the focus of every place except for a trade port on an asteroid ruled by a shaky alliance between Dwarves and Stone Giants.

1) Forest World of Ehlonna - The entire world is a forest.  There are no Humans or Dwarves.  The two dominant races are Yuan Ti and Elves.  There are Halfling and Goblin cannibals that move about in the jungles.
2) Air World of Auster - The world has no land masses whatsoever.  Cloud Giants rule over the air and a great ocean is below.  Sea Elves live in coral kingdoms below the waters.  Halflings live on islands of sea plants that float atop the ocean, and some live in the clouds using beanstalks to travel to the Waters Below.
3) Shadow World of Garlakk - A lightless world ruled over by Shadow Dragons and their corrupted servants.  The Shardar Kai (Shadow Elves) live under the moonlight in darkwood forests.  The entire planet is like an Underdark.
4) Corpse World of Miska - On the warm dead body of Miska the Wolfspider, the Queen of Chaos and the Mother of Demons lives Demons and Drow.  The Drow here do not worship Lolth, but the planet itself.  There are 8 moons, one for each of her eyes staring down at you.  A red ring of blood encircles the planet, shielding the inhabitants from the cold like of Pesh.  The splinters of her legs are a dangerous asteroid field.  The sun, a dead angel Pesh, casts a cold light that freezes the solar system.  The Drow hide from the sun's light and stay in the warm earth of Miska.

I'm working on a few such right now for the game I'm currently working on.  There's the Chaktak, an amphibious crustacean-like race that I discussed in another thread on this site, and the Kohbi, an avian race that is also the dominant naval power in the world.  The most interesting part of the project has been deciding how the physiology of the races affects the psychology, and then determines the formation of societies.  If I ever get around to finishing the game I'll post the details in this forum for discussion.

One concept I used in Gamma World is based on the winds from Zelazny's Damnation Alley. The basic idea is the apocalypse screwed up global wind patterns, resulting in screaming winds of great velocity circling the globe in the upper atmosphere. These winds typically aren't a problem to people living on the surface, but they occasionally dip lower, and have scoured the top off most mountains. The scoured earth and rock circle the planet, making the sky look banded, and occasionally causing rains of boulders and rocks.

I had the winds scour the ocean as well. The gray and green bands in the sky are water, and an entire aquatic ecosystem has developed in the sky. Mutant flying fish the size of buses pop out of the underside of the streams of water, only to soar down to the surface, scrape up biomass with mouths like vacuums, and glide back up on the thermals around great cliffs. Myriads of glowing squid and jellyfish have become buoyant and free, drifting across the sky. Mud-streams that intermingle water with the scoured earth have proved a refuge for deep sea creatures, exotic creatures who live in the dark and silt. Entire civilizations of watery creatures live above the heads of the PCs. I even used the rings as a (dangerous) stepping stone into lower orbit.

I suggest starting with the basics.  Water, food, and shelter.   In some cases, even air. 

It always bugged me watching The Return of the King movie and seeing Gondor's huge mountainside city of Minas Tirith, yet not a single crop field to be seen in any flyby camera shot.  Not even hints that fields and farms were a thing.  Not even shepards watching over herds of cows or goats.   What do these people eat?

Whenever you design a fantasy community, don't forget the basics.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 05, 2022, 08:23:55 AM
I suggest starting with the basics.  Water, food, and shelter.   In some cases, even air. 

It always bugged me watching The Return of the King movie and seeing Gondor's huge mountainside city of Minas Tirith, yet not a single crop field to be seen in any flyby camera shot.  Not even hints that fields and farms were a thing.  Not even shepards watching over herds of cows or goats.   What do these people eat?

Whenever you design a fantasy community, don't forget the basics.

If I recall correctly in the books, Minas Tirith was just the capital. There was extensive farmland in Gondor.

But you're not wrong.

The Death's Gate Cycle might be a good place to look for ideas on this endeavor.

Quote from: Pat on March 22, 2022, 09:30:59 AM
One concept I used in Gamma World is based on the winds from Zelazny's Damnation Alley. The basic idea is the apocalypse screwed up global wind patterns, resulting in screaming winds of great velocity circling the globe in the upper atmosphere. These winds typically aren't a problem to people living on the surface, but they occasionally dip lower, and have scoured the top off most mountains. The scoured earth and rock circle the planet, making the sky look banded, and occasionally causing rains of boulders and rocks.

I had the winds scour the ocean as well. The gray and green bands in the sky are water, and an entire aquatic ecosystem has developed in the sky. Mutant flying fish the size of buses pop out of the underside of the streams of water, only to soar down to the surface, scrape up biomass with mouths like vacuums, and glide back up on the thermals around great cliffs. Myriads of glowing squid and jellyfish have become buoyant and free, drifting across the sky. Mud-streams that intermingle water with the scoured earth have proved a refuge for deep sea creatures, exotic creatures who live in the dark and silt. Entire civilizations of watery creatures live above the heads of the PCs. I even used the rings as a (dangerous) stepping stone into lower orbit.

This sounds really cool. Somehow in my four decades in this hobby I have never played in a world like this. Also, sounds like I need to read Damnation Alley.

In my go-to Fantasy setting, I try to think about these sorts of things. The two big examples I draw from are my take on the standard "Drow" and "Merfolk".

With the Drow, they've only recently been "Exiled" under the earth by the combined might of other nations which is my canon justification for why they are xenophobic and naturally ill-tempered to other races. The big thing to note is they had to radically shift their culture to survive in the underdark being surface dwellers forced underground so drow cities tend to have a lot of artificial light and magical lighting to mimic day/night cycles with bright lights during the "Day" and dimmer lights during the "Night". Since they also had to essentially start fresh as exiles and being technologically advanced in comparison to the civilizations of the underdark, they went about enslaving local populations to gather workforces and at the same time learn what's safe to eat, how to farm down here and overall how to survive (the justification and roots of Drow being slavers).

Over generations of a constant mentality that they have been wronged, a goddess who constantly encourages them to take vengeance against those who wronged them and less than ideal living conditions, the Drow of my setting are for the most part vile or desperate. Those who cling to the "Ideals of Old" Tend to raid surface settlements routinely and constantly launch attacks to reclaim their old holdings. Tend to enslave other races just because they can/want to and are looking to fill the gaps in their society with as much wealth and luxury as possible. Meanwhile, other Drow groups have taken to a different approach of mercantilism. Certain resources exist in the underdark which are precious and difficult to obtain and while the Drow lack many of the industries to make use of these materials, other civilizations can make use of them. Resulting in budding trade routes spanning from the underdark to the surface. And of course, this leads to conflict between the Drow.

As for the Mer-Folk. They mostly lack metallurgy of any type and see no need for it, due to this they didn't much care for any trades or diplomacy with other races. However, something the Mer-Folk did care about was novelty items of stone or ivory. Considering most of the "homes" the merfolk lived in were migratory camps not really needing to settle down in any given location, with the introduction of permanent shelters offered to them, along with luxury goods that didn't spoil in the water. Their culture over time shifted. In my setting, today Mer-Folk can be found living nearby port cities, town and villages who offer their services in guiding ships, saving sailors and warding off predators from fishing vessels in the exchange for permanent homes and luxury goods. Of course, some Mer-Folk still live nomadic lifestyles and have their own arrangements with sailors (normally independent companies or nations) to rescue and look after individuals who fall overboard. These Mer-Folk paid in jewellery, carved works and other items that don't spoil in water and in return they maintain "Waystations" and "Shelters" for those who get lost out at sea.

I try to consider what these societies have to work with and how they could continue to exist, I know theoretically a race of angry, evil, slavers is impractical but I try to make it work as well as it can within my cannon and since it's fantasy I give it a lot of wiggle room. Plus it's just fun.

QuoteIf I recall correctly in the books, Minas Tirith was just the capital. There was extensive farmland in Gondor.

Technically Osgilliath was capital. Minas Tirith was fortress-city.
But in books it's surrounded by many miles of fields and farms supporting it - which was totally removed from movie. Also movie totally mess distances as basically Minas Tirith and Osgiliath are in eye-distance while in reality it was IIRC something between 30 and 40 miles. Not that far away... but kinda not in eye range even for 1000 foot tall tower.
Wait a minute: ok I checked, it seems peak itself could be visible from beyond horizon, still in movie you basically see whole MT.

Funny enough, I've had several long conversations with my would-be-fantasy-author daughter about how a real undersea/mermaid civilization would actually look. Unless we use the Aquaman rules, where the mermaids build dry, undersea homes and walk around most of the time, there really isn't much case for these types of creatures to make buildings that resemble human buildings in any way. The most effective "home" would be a cave with a sturdy door. Windows, balconies, chimneys, beds, tables, chairs, etc are worthless in a world where every creature effectively flies and very few of them actually lie down to sleep.