So, what do you think is key to getting swashbuckling right?

My instincts are fast action and a forgiving system, but the Three Musketeers is bloody and grim in many places, the heroism lies in part in their being swashbucklers despite playing Gurps, if you catch my drift.

What goes into making this work at the table?  What games have got it right in your view, and why?

My poorly thought out instinct is that there needs to be an emphasis on ... well, for lack of a better term, maneuvering ... that equals or exceeds the emphasis on head-on conflict.

I can do examples more easily than I can do fundamental principles here:  The hero needs to be able to escape a circle of advancing guards by swinging away on a chandelier.  The duel should be as much about keeping your balance on the rope bridge over the active volcano as it is about matching swords.  The seduction should be as much about finding the perfect opportunity to find your intended in the garden during the costume ball as it is about words of love and soft caresses.

Swashbucklers are inexorably intertwined in an environment (both physical and social) that is filled with pointless extravagances whose only purpose is to give them a chance to improvise.

I think the key is in Tony's very last sentence and word he uses. Characters that improvise to leverage and finesse the items around them to act indirectly rather than direct. So that they can take on seemingly insurmountable odds and you constantly find yourself saying "ooooh, didn't see that coming" when (if) they kick ass. Even when it's your own character that does it.

Quote from: BalbinusSo, what do you think is key to getting swashbuckling right?

Not penalize players for doing it or allow their characters to be good enough to get away with it.  If you want players to do something, you can't punish them for it.  Most  players are not masochists.

Quote from: BalbinusMy instincts are fast action and a forgiving system, but the Three Musketeers is bloody and grim in many places, the heroism lies in part in their being swashbucklers despite playing Gurps, if you catch my drift.

What goes into making this work at the table?  What games have got it right in your view, and why?

Not surprisingly, given your Musketeers example and Steffan O'Sullivan's affinity for that genre, I think Fudge works pretty well, even without Fudge points.  Why?  Because in Fudge, your level in a skill is the most important determinant of who wins a conflict and even a single level of ability translates into a fairly significant tilt of the odds in the character's favor.  Thus this allows a Musketeer to easily take on and defeat "mooks" that are a few levels lower in skill while having a much rougher time beating someone at the same level.  This goes back to the small-encounters with a boss monster at the end model used by video games that I've mentioned elsewhere.  And Fudge has a further safety net, in the form of Fudge points, built in.  Good stuff for swashbuckling so long as you balance the opposition properly.

ADDED:  I also think that Tony's suggestions are good for encouraging swashbuckling behavior.  My suggestions were more oriented toward how not to suppress it.

Quote from: BalbinusWhat goes into making this work at the table?  What games have got it right in your view, and why?

I once asked this sort of question a couple of years back.  I quoted a key passage from The Three Musketeers and asked people to post in interpretation of the events in their favorite game system.  I was particularly impressed with Bruce Ferrie's use of the HeroQuest system.

!i!

Quote from: BalbinusSo, what do you think is key to getting swashbuckling right?

My instincts are fast action and a forgiving system, but the Three Musketeers is bloody and grim in many places, the heroism lies in part in their being swashbucklers despite playing Gurps, if you catch my drift.

What goes into making this work at the table?  What games have got it right in your view, and why?

Mood. there has to be a mood at the table. started and maintained by the GM. Players have to know that swashbuckiling action is encouraged and will be rewarded. have a primer before starting the campaign- have everyone over for a screening of some genre movies-Errol Flynn of course but also Tyronne Power or better yet Burt Lancaster (who was a professional Circus acrobat) in The Crimson Pirate.
make sure as the GM you set up situations to encourage swashbuckling. at first you will have to encourage it, but after a  couple of times the players may take the cue and go it on their own.  and try not to kill them while they are trying to be heroic thats a big morale pit for the whole table.

Quote from: BalbinusWhat goes into making this work at the table?  What games have got it right in your view, and why?

I had so much fun playing Swashbuckler! by Jolly Roger Games. The focus was firmly on back and forth, high-action swordfight and you pretty much made the rest up. That's how I like it.

Here are two reviews by two very different people. One by Kyle Marquis and one by Ron Edwards

Despite the fun I had with the game, I have to say I thought it was pricey for the content but that might be a Canadian import thing. I had to special order it.

I think one of the keys as far as Emulation is concerned is that Swashbucklers almost never fall on their asses when they're doing some kind of acrobatic stunt. This is essential. In an normal RPG, someone might make a tumbling check, and a failure could mean he falls on his ass.

In a swashbuckling game, failure on an acrobatics check should only mean that the Swashbuckler cannot perform the task; in other words, make it so that he never even tries.  If he makes the check, he can do it, if he fails the check, he can't (and optionally, can try to do something else other than an acrobatic maneuvre).  Only on a critical failure should actual FAILURE (much less embarrasing failure) happen to him.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: Consonant DudeI had so much fun playing Swashbuckler! by Jolly Roger Games. The focus was firmly on back and forth, high-action swordfight and you pretty much made the rest up. That's how I like it.

Here are two reviews by two very different people. One by Kyle Marquis and one by Ron Edwards

Despite the fun I had with the game, I have to say I thought it was pricey for the content but that might be a Canadian import thing. I had to special order it.

To be honest, it was Ron's recommendation that put me off.  Not because he's evil or anything, but because I bought Extreme Vengeance on a similar recommendation from him and thought it was crap.  I figured he and I have different tastes.

But perhaps here that's not the case, what did you like about it?

If it makes a difference, I'm more interested in Dumas than Errol Flynn.

I've seen people claim that D&D (from as far back as 1E/BD&D and as recently as 3.5E d20 D&D) as a system can't handle swashbuckling action.  But the simple fact is that D&D/D20 can handle anything you can throw at your DM.  
   Note I said anything you can throw at your DM, not at the system.  If your DM is good enough to roll with the situation and react by adjucating things based on character actions, then D&D handles swashbuckling just fine.
   It's just like the old example of "If your player says he wants to jump over the chair, grab the nearest soldier, hop over him while pushing his helmet over his eyes, and kick the soldier behind him -- don't tell him he can't do it, tell him how hard it's going to be, and roll with it."  (Yes, I don't remember whatthe actual example was, but that fits the advice as well as the original)
   You want to do swashbuckling, just do it, and hope your DM can think well enough to react to it without whining "There aren't rules for that".

   Lord knows, I've used party members as missle weapons, I've had characters be attacked by old naked men who tried to smother my character with their genitals (thanks, Willard. ), had the HummVee my character was in blow up - fly through the air - bounce all over hell - and nearly kill another party member when the wheel-well cracked his skull and I was trying to hold on for dear life, used a wooden table to check for traps, and any number of oddball things.  All while playing D&D/D20.  It can do it just fine.  

I read something just last night that I think would fit (well, I read it and thought "Captain Alatriste!" which I think is close enough in spirit to Dumas).

Worlds of Cthulhu, Issue 2, has an article on Cthulhu in the Wild West.  There are a couple of rules tweaks to BRP that could just drop straight into a Dumas-type game IMHO.

First is the serious wounds rule...if your HP drops below zero, you pick up a serious wound that impairs you in some way (depending on the location), BUT your HP are then reset to maximum.  This can be repeated three times before death, but it allows the character to carry on.  Serious wounds are only healed by weeks convalescing.

The other is the Grit rule, that allows you to keep fighting when you should be unconscious (equivalent to being heroic in RQIII), except grit is a seperate skill.  Rename that to "Faith in the Catholic cause," or "Loyalty to the King," or "in Love with Lady Elizabeth" and you have a BRP version of Riddle of Steel's spiritual attributes!

Thought I'd mention it, as I know you're a BRP fan...

Captain Alatriste is actually a tribute to Dumas, the author is a fan.  Great books.

Interesting tips on the CoC stuff, I'll dig the article out and take a fresh look.

Quote from: BalbinusIf it makes a difference, I'm more interested in Dumas than Errol Flynn.

Does that include the "Le Reine Margot" style Dumas?

Steffan O'Sullivan wrote GURPS Swashbucker and seems to be more Dumas than Errol Flynn in his outlook.  There are some sample Three Musketeers style characters here (the non-canon characters were from an adventure that's been run at conventions that I once played in).  There used to be a 5-Point Fudge Musketeers treatment in PDF here but it's not there anymore (it may have been rolled into the 10th Anniversary Edition of Fudge).  There was also a treatment of Swashbuckling adventures in Fudge here.

Quote from: BalbinusTo be honest, it was Ron's recommendation that put me off.  Not because he's evil or anything, but because I bought Extreme Vengeance on a similar recommendation from him and thought it was crap.  I figured he and I have different tastes.

But perhaps here that's not the case, what did you like about it?

It's funny that you mention EV. Swashbuckler! does share a couple of traits with it. The book is really thin, for one. Secondly, although it is nowhere near as bad as EV, the writing can be a little annoying at times.

Fortunately, I didn't enjoy EV all that much (it was a nice try) and think Swashbuckler is an excellent game with more focus.

What do I like about it? As I said, the swordfights! The combat maneuvers make for really exciting fights. Players can really play maneuvers that have a style to them and you can learn to anticipate some tactics because there is a certain logical flow to the way combat unfolds.

Swordfights are really the star of this short game (under 50 pages). Especially one-on-one. There are also rules for multiple opponent fights, archery, firearms (these suck and need tweaking), ship combat.

No silly-deep setting in there. No fantasy elements either. One interesting aspect is that they still write 2-3 pages on religion, faith, magic but as guidelines. These are not for the characters and fit rather well.

Chargen is light. You have only a few attributes (no 300 sub-attributes and crap like that), then genre-related skills.

One thing I just remembered about fights that I love is that they are intense but you don't have to resolve them by having someone die. This was done well for the time it was designed. There's a point where one of the opponents just won't be able to keep up. Kind of a saving throw to keep going.  

The game is showing its age a bit. There are places where you could tweak stuff but it's a game where you can add stuff instead of substract. So it's easy to houserule because there's little reverse-engineering.

If there are specific questions, let me know. I'll grab the book.