Quote from: Dumarest;999200If anyone who has played the Buck Rogers game wants to start a thread about why it's awesome or sucks, I'd love to read about it. I've never seen the game. Is it based on the old stories or the TV series or Buster Crabbe serial or what?
None of the above. It was its own completely original setting. Honestly, Buck Rogers, Wilma Deering, Dr. Huer, et al. were rather superfluous. So much so that the line name eventually changed to just "XXVc."
The mechanics were based on Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2E, with an added percentile skill system and a seventh attribute, "Tech", which showed how adept your character was at using technology.
In 1999, the United States and the Soviet Union (this is the late '80s and early '90s remember) enter a nuclear war. At the end, Earth is mostly a hellhole and what is left of the world divides up into blocks. The three main blocks are the Russo-American Mercantile ("RAM"), the Indo-Asian Consortium ("IAC"), and the Euro-Bloc Faction ("EBF"). RAM goes out and colonizes Mars, the IAC colonizes Venus, and EBF gets the moon.
After a couple of hundred years, RAM/Mars gets uppity and revolts, and then eventually occupies Earth. In the meantime, some of the people that fled Earth during all this establish a colony on Mercury.
In the 25th Century, Earth is no longer the shining jewel of the Sol system. It's mostly occupied by the lower class of humanity that couldn't afford to move out to the moon, or Mars, etc. Eventually, a group of rebels forms on Earth aimed to overthrow Martian rule - the New Earth Organization, ("NEO"). NEO eventually comes across a frozen Buck Rogers. After they revive him, he helps NEO kick RAM off of Earth, and re-establish self rule on the planet. This is basically where the game begins.
There's space pirates. There are outer fringe colonies in the asteroid belt, and on Jupiter's moons. There's digital personalities (AI either programmed or an uploaded human mind). In fact, it turns out that a digital personality based on a long dead person runs RAM/Mars. There's genetically engineered races of people for better compatibility on Mars, Venus, the asteroid belt, and Jupiter's moons. There's inter-planetary political and corporate intrigue.
It's semi-hard science-fiction with rocket ships and ray guns. It also may be the very first transhuman RPG, with the various genetically engineered species and digital personalities.
The rules are meh... like I said basically AD&D 2E, but it has one of the best danged science-fiction settings IMO.
An advertisement in Dragon magazine:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/568/32177957701_847d730c73_z.jpg)
**didnt see this first**
It was a very enjoyable game that is one of the few times I've seen D&D (classic sense/or modern) not stretch out of shape to emulate the genre/medium. Usually with licensed properties I recommend using better systems but in this case they made a great game. It's a shame it wasn't more popular.
It's a shame I can't get one of my group to post he used to run it quite regularly.
I like the setting overall, and the novels were decent enough. I loved the fact that it was AD&D-based because it would allow for some scifi crossovers with my fantasy campaigns. (This plus 4E Gamma World, also AD&D-like.)
It's a very clean implementation of D&D. The percentile system does what 2e should have done all along: skills are based on a stat and that stat is your base percentage, then you spend points to improve it. It integrates non-weapon proficiencies with thieves skills in a single, consistent system. The classes are reasonable but some of the races are hard to really use much, Storm Riders and Venusian Low Landers in particular. All told the game is very consistent and well thought out and the setting is realistic and fun which is no mean feat.
I've read that TSR titled it XXVc. because their research showed that the name "Buck Rogers" actually reduced people's interest in buying it.
XXVc isnt related to either the original books, the comic strips, the serial, or the TV series. Its very much its own thing and shares mosrly just the character names and not alot else.
Its a great setting though and plays really well.
If you get a chance check out the two excellent SSI Gold Box PC games using their UA engine.
TSR also did a Buck Rogers Adventure Game which was a rules lite pulp game set in the world of the comics.
Sounds like a pretty cool setting to play around in. Have any of you played a campaign with this?
I'm kind of tinkering with a relatively lighthearted setting borrowing ideas from the 1981 Flash Gordon movie, the Gil Gerard Buck Rogers TV series, the 1980s V miniseries, the original Battlestar Galactica, and some other sci fi material. No idea how it'll work out and if it'll ever get played.
The only thing is that RAM isn't that compelling of a villain. They're a corporation and the Terrines are their merciless shock troopers but because they're a corporation first and foremost you can get them to be reasonable if you can show them the money. There's space pirates of course but they're pretty mercenary too. Personally I'd introduce a radical terrorist front like Cobra. Somebody the players can really hate.
Quote from: David Johansen;999291The only thing is that RAM isn't that compelling of a villain. They're a corporation and the Terrines are their merciless shock troopers but because they're a corporation first and foremost you can get them to be reasonable if you can show them the money. There's space pirates of course but they're pretty mercenary too. Personally I'd introduce a radical terrorist front like Cobra. Somebody the players can really hate.
Well, one thing I always say is that you need actual people to be enemies worth caring about. Organizations are rather boring. Install an evil guy in charge (like Cobra Commander, Ming the Merciless, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Dracula, whatever) and give the PCs reasons to hate him and you're all set.
Quote from: David Johansen;999267It's a very clean implementation of D&D. The percentile system does what 2e should have done all along: skills are based on a stat and that stat is your base percentage, then you spend points to improve it. It integrates non-weapon proficiencies with thieves skills in a single, consistent system. The classes are reasonable but some of the races are hard to really use much, Storm Riders and Venusian Low Landers in particular. All told the game is very consistent and well thought out and the setting is realistic and fun which is no mean feat.
I've read that TSR titled it XXVc. because their research showed that the name "Buck Rogers" actually reduced people's interest in buying it.
Yeah, Storm Riders and Venusian Low Landers are pretty much only good if you were to run campaigns firmly set on either the asteroid belt/Jupiter or Venus, respectively.
I can see that. The game really had very little to do with Buck Rogers himself, nor the other related characters. I initially got into the game because I bought the "Buck Rogers XXVc: Countdown to Doomsday" video game, and there were a couple of ads for the tabletop RPG in the box. Why did I buy the video game? Because I watched the Gil Gerard television show as a wee lad and assumed that the video game was related in someway. I realized that it was not after playing it of course, and I therefore knew what I was getting into when buying and GMing the tabletop RPG.
So, really, it sounds to me like the biggest problem was the "Based on a Name By" aspect. Sort of like how the Disney "Three Musketeers" with Tim Curry as Richelieu was entertaining and all, but had pretty much fuckall to do with Dumas.
Yes, pretty much. The designers at TSR weren't really thrilled by the project to begin with but managed to slip in a pretty decent setting and set of game rules in spite of that. It's a shame, I always found the Buck Rogers associations made it hard to get players to try it.
All respect to the actors involved, but I thought the Buck Rodgers TV show shat big chunks. The comics were cool.
All that said, I can see where LW may honestly have thought Buck Rodgers would be profitable. A thing known as "George's low-budget silly space movie that the studio let him make as a favor for his success with American Graffiti" turned into "one of the top grossing movies of all time," after all.
Yeah, the TV show kinda poisoned the well on that one. There were some passable episodes and some nice space ship models but the heavy handed and corny fish out of water jokes and desperate attempt to make Buck into Captain Kirk and Han Solo's love child fell flat.
And the "cute robot sidekick" was a BAD idea.
I liked it, but I was also about four to six years old at the time. :p Retrospectively, the first season was okie for '70s television science-fiction, but the second season was awful.
R2D2 and C3P0 had a painfully negative effect on the science fiction shows of the eighties. But it wasn't just a cute robot side kick, it was a cute robot side kick used to make adult jokes. It worked for Bender because Bender wasn't cute. I do think Twinkie could have been redeemed if there was a running joke where it got shot, run over, turned into a trash can, blew up and so forth every episode but as with all things it's all in the execution and I'm afraid executions are the only thing that could save that show. I was a kid when it came out and I wanted to watch it but nobody else in the family did so of course I bought it when the DVD set came out. I never got through it, good grief is it bad.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999344And the "cute robot sidekick" was a BAD idea.
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I liked Twiki better than C3P0.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999327So, really, it sounds to me like the biggest problem was the "Based on a Name By" aspect. Sort of like how the Disney "Three Musketeers" with Tim Curry as Richelieu was entertaining and all, but had pretty much fuckall to do with Dumas.
"Entertaining" is about the last adjective I associate with that dung heap.
The thing is that you're not supposed to like C3P0 he's a foil for the profane and urbane R2D2. Really, given that all the acting is done by Anthony Daniels you'd have no personality for R2D2 without C3P0. It's very a cleverly done on the venquilitrist's dummy.
Quote from: David Johansen;999357The thing is that you're not supposed to like C3P0 he's a foil for the profane and urbane R2D2. Really, given that all the acting is done by Anthony Daniels you'd have no personality for R2D2 without C3P0. It's very a cleverly done on the venquilitrist's dummy.
Let me put it this way: I fast forward through R2D2-C3P0 scenes.
That's okay, I must confess to having enjoyed the recent Three Musketeers movie with the airships and wirefu action. Different things bother different people, it happens. Twiki was stupid either way.
Quote from: David Johansen;999337Yes, pretty much. The designers at TSR weren't really thrilled by the project to begin with but managed to slip in a pretty decent setting and set of game rules in spite of that. It's a shame, I always found the Buck Rogers associations made it hard to get players to try it.
Who were the designers and where did you read that they weren't thrilled about it?
As for the TV show, it was the only reason the IP had the slimmest chance of succeeding. I loved the show as a kid, it was terrible but I find it campy enough to watch as an adult, particularly with Erin Gray and her skin-tight uniforms. The space vampire episode is rather creepy. There is a lot of smirking sexual attempts at humour that seem really out of place in a show for kids but I guess that was part of the attempt to make TV shows with wide 'appeal' in the 70s and 80s.
I discovered the original strips many years later and they are terrific.
I'm afraid it's a years of on-line discussion thing but here's the Wikipedia link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Rogers_XXVC
XXVc was great. I really enjoyed it. I still have the novels. I think there was nine in total, with only three involving Buck Rogers and the others involving other characters. I think my favorite thing was space combat, and I combined it with Battlesystem so I could do fleet vs fleet battles.
Quote from: Voros;999382I discovered the original strips many years later and they are terrific.
I wonder if the 1993 game--which went back to the original strips and style--would have done better in the market of ten or twenty years later, or even without coming right on the heels of XXVc.
Quote from: Celestial;999211(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/568/32177957701_847d730c73_z.jpg)
I never played the game, but I think the art in that ad is pretty cool.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999338All respect to the actors involved, but I thought the Buck Rodgers TV show shat big chunks. The comics were cool.
All that said, I can see where LW may honestly have thought Buck Rodgers would be profitable. A thing known as "George's low-budget silly space movie that the studio let him make as a favor for his success with American Graffiti" turned into "one of the top grossing movies of all time," after all.
Loraine pulled royalties from every BR product TSR made.
Seems likely, but you don't actually know do you?
Since this was already argued into the ground let's try to keep this thread on topic and not turn it into a bitchfest about LW.
I've recently discovered "The Expanse" through both novels and syfy TV series, and I was thinking that XXVc would be a good rules set for that setting.
Your ignorance is showing.
Actually not many are aware of that little fact even now. Or dont make the connection.
Though from some accounts she may have been honestly trying to promote Buck Rogers and her grandfathers works. From what other have said the coffetable book collection of the strips was well done. But at the end up the day she was still pulling royalties from her own company on top of her paycheck.
Quote from: Omega;999413Loraine pulled royalties from every BR product TSR made.
Which affects my game how?
Quote from: finarvyn;999421I've recently discovered "The Expanse" through both novels and syfy TV series, and I was thinking that XXVc would be a good rules set for that setting.
Filing off the serial numbers for XXVc is pretty much my dream OSR. I would put money into that because there is no way I could do the work all myself unless a medical miracle happens. :D
I think the game could have done better but it was in a weird territory. Attaching an IP to it in itself is not a bad idea, after all XXVc is basically an original setting that just happens to have Buck Rogers in it. However, I think many were put off because of associations with the 70s TV series which is a shame. I read lots of Asimov as a kid, which was my gateway to Golden Age and Pre Golden Age Science Fiction, so after reading the tie in books I immediately read Nowlan's Armageddon 2419 which is nothing like later iterations.
Maybe if the game had been released as an original setting without being tied to an IP then it might have been more enduring. XXVc has a small niche in a niche recursion fandom. Negative associations with the IP, aka the TV Show, might have impacted more casual D&D players who might otherwise have been previously drawn to Gamma World and Star Frontiers. Of course I realize it is highly unlikely the setting would have emerged without the Buck Rogers IP.
The Rules were a very good use of AD&D 2e. I liked the skill system, and I liked the fact that I could import material from AD&D (including the previously mentioned Battle System for big battles) including indirectly Star Frontiers since the main races conveniently appeared in Spelljammer, though sometimes with slightly different names (Yazirian/Hadozee). And of course the wealth of 1e and BECMI/RC D&D including other products with technology. But you didn't need it. Add in the Hardware book to the boxed set and you have all the technology you could want short of FTL travel. Weapons were imaginative and definitely took inspiration from speculative science, including rocket rifles, gyro jet guns, lasers in the visible and invisible spectrum as well as masers.
The No Humans Allowed supplement was pretty much a book of player character races. The only real limitation in comparison with AD&D was the number of character classes available, and that wasn't exactly a bad limitation. You still had six classes to choose from, seven if you included the scientist. Even using the box set on it's own gave you everything you could need for a campaign.
The novels were worth reading inasmuch as they fleshed out the solar system. The location supplements were very handy as well. You could run an entire campaign on Venus or Mars if you wanted. You could live on a rocket and travel around, or mine asteroids if that was your thing.
What I liked was the fact that the game was set in the solar system. If you are like me, you know the solar system. This game also came out at a time that computers were starting to be quite useful. I had a 486 Computer that I made from parts found at a Sally Ann and had a disk with astronomy stuff so I could do things like enter a specific date and it would show me where the planets were. It's kind of handy to know if you need to go to Mars if the Sun is in your way. Nowadays, you can get the same information in a web browser or an app store for your phone of choice. My point is that the solar system is something that we know. When I say Jupiter, you think of the big striped ball with the red spot. If I say Saturn, you see rings. If I say Uranus... Yeah maybe skip that one... But we all know the names, or at least a decent amount of them. This is also what helped shows like Starhunter and Cowboy Bebop appeal to me. It's science fiction, but it's rooted in stuff that includes things you can see with your own eyes just looking up. If I tell my players that they are going to Mars and the planet is actually visible in the night sky, that creates an impact with them.
@finarvyn sorry if my reply to you was more a general observation. I have as yet not watched The Expanse. If it is solar system based then yes I think XXVc would be a good fitting if you want to run your Sci-Fi like AD&D, I say without irony. XXVc has enough material that it can be adapted to just about any other setting. Buck Rogers feels almost incidental. You can run hard science with it and not feel bad about skimping on details that other systems offer. It also has the advantage of being a system that most pen and paper gamers already know how to play. You drop character sheets for any D&D group, and they'll grok it.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999338All that said, I can see where LW may honestly have thought Buck Rodgers would be profitable. A thing known as "George's low-budget silly space movie that the studio let him make as a favor for his success with American Graffiti" turned into "one of the top grossing movies of all time," after all.
Every time someone says something along the lines of 'how did this
get made,' I remind them that you don't know ahead of time which one will succeed. Heck, if you had handed any of us the scripts for The Matrix and the Super Mario Brother movie in say 1985, I doubt any of us could predict which one would succeed.
Quote from: Krimson;999441@finarvyn sorry if my reply to you was more a general observation. I have as yet not watched The Expanse. If it is solar system based then yes I think XXVc would be a good fitting if you want to run your Sci-Fi like AD&D, I say without irony. XXVc has enough material that it can be adapted to just about any other setting. Buck Rogers feels almost incidental. You can run hard science with it and not feel bad about skimping on details that other systems offer. It also has the advantage of being a system that most pen and paper gamers already know how to play. You drop character sheets for any D&D group, and they'll grok it.
No, your reply was awesome and gets me thinking about how I can use XXVc in various settings. It's okay if you have no Expanse experience. :)
If I had to guess where the TV show went wrong it'd be in the board room where the executives were trying to hit all the numbers to make a hit show that wouldn't cost as much as Battle Star Galactica. If I had to fix the show I'd do the following things.
Lose the white disco suit uniforms for something in grey or another subdued color.
Stop trying to turn Buck into a hip, swinging sex pot.
Stop assuming that the old way, the Buck way is always best. Let the targeting computers work.
Redesign Twinkie to be utilitarian and get rid of the bedebedebbede thing. If he has to pick up some twentieth century quirks let some of them be good and some of them disastrous.
Get a good recurring villain who reflects Buck's strengths and shows his weaknesses.
As for LW, I'd suggest that promoting Buck Rogers was in her best interest and it's safe to assume she hoped for success and high sales.
Quote from: David Johansen;999517Lose the white disco suit uniforms for something in grey or another subdued color.
Star Trek tried that with "The Motion Picture." Disco suits are awesome.
Quote from: David Johansen;999517Stop trying to turn Buck into a hip, swinging sex pot.
Buck
is a hip, swinging sexpot, there is no
trying involved.
Quote from: David Johansen;999517Stop assuming that the old way, the Buck way is always best. Let the targeting computers work.
The old ways are always best.
Quote from: David Johansen;999517Redesign Twinkie to be utilitarian and get rid of the bedebedebbede thing. If he has to pick up some twentieth century quirks let some of them be good and some of them disastrous.
Bedebedebede, no way!
Quote from: David Johansen;999517Get a good recurring villain who reflects Buck's strengths and shows his weaknesses.
Okay.
Mostly sounds like you want a "reimagined" show that does away with all the 1970s charm, much like that godawful po-faced Battlestar Galactica remake?
No, not quite, just less corny and obnoxious. More adventure, more danger, less painful humour.
You are, of course, welcome to like the show as it is. I'm talking about making it more successful in its place and time.
New BSG is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand the very premise of the show is incredibly grim and a bit of po-face seems appropriate but on the other hand it's pretty smug and pretentious which never helps anything.
As a disco music fan (yes, seriously), I like the white disco uniforms. :p I even own the soundtracks to the Buck Rogers movie and first season. Some of it is quite funkoriffic.
I'm not sure if they should have made the little robot look more or less like a hardon.
Quote from: David Johansen;999517Redesign Twinkie to be utilitarian and get rid of the bedebedebbede thing.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/80512604/bdbdbd-fuck-you-buddy.jpg)
Quote from: Omega;999426Your ignorance is showing.
Actually not many are aware of that little fact even now. Or dont make the connection.
Though from some accounts she may have been honestly trying to promote Buck Rogers and her grandfathers works. From what other have said the coffetable book collection of the strips was well done. But at the end up the day she was still pulling royalties from her own company on top of her paycheck.
Are you sure you know what the word ignorance means?
Actually it is the only thing you hear when this game comes up so I don't know who isn't aware of the fact that she was tied to the Dille estate.
But please present actually evidence that she was
personally pulling royalties and then stop derailing the thread. And by evidence I mean more than 'someone with an intense dislike of her said it on the net.'
Even if true it is all ancient history and of little relevance to discussing the game itself.
Imagine if ever thread on D&D involved someone popping in to complain about Gygax ripping off Arneson?
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999542I'm not sure if they should have made the little robot look more or less like a hardon.
Definitely more. They should have named him Steely Dan.
Quote from: David Johansen;999526No, not quite, just less corny and obnoxious. More adventure, more danger, less painful humour.
You are, of course, welcome to like the show as it is. I'm talking about making it more successful in its place and time.
New BSG is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand the very premise of the show is incredibly grim and a bit of po-face seems appropriate but on the other hand it's pretty smug and pretentious which never helps anything.
It was the smug pretentiousness that turned me off it, mainly. That and the weird idea that we should somehow be sympathetic to the poor Cylons. I was firmly in the "kill the toasters" camp. I also lost interest when the president lady turned into a mystic seer/visionary.
Quote from: Celestial;999532As a disco music fan (yes, seriously), I like the white disco uniforms. :p I even own the soundtracks to the Buck Rogers movie and first season. Some of it is quite funkoriffic.
Agree on the uniforms, more damaging was the cheap sets but ST had cheap sets too, this was TV sf after all.
I need to get these soundtracks.
I think it was KVOS who promoted the Buck Rogers reruns with the inspired tag line 'The Future Never Looked More 70s!'
Quote from: Dumarest;999606Definitely more. They should have named him Steely Dan.
Love this idea, they should do it for the BG-style reboot. :D
I thought BG got off to a great start, the original series was a dog's breakfast (and remember I liked the Buck Rogers show!). But the new show lost its way after the third season because they didn't commit
enough to the mystical elements. There's a long tradition of the mystic in sf from Heilein to Childhood's End, the final reveal of BG though had all the impact of the ending of a Scooby Doo episode.
Quote from: Krimson;999441Filing off the serial numbers for XXVc is pretty much my dream OSR.
It's a great game, and sadly overlooked, but not perfect. Some of the gennies (genetically engineered humans) give me pause. I don't have the game on hand, but I'm thinking about the guys that could fly around in deep space. Also, the class name "rocket jock" irked me; why not just Pilot? The Tech attribute and the percentile skill system are great, though.
Quote from: Aglondir;999615It's a great game, and sadly overlooked, but not perfect. Some of the gennies (genetically engineered humans) give me pause. I don't have the game on hand, but I'm thinking about the guys that could fly around in deep space. Also, the class name "rocket jock" irked me; why not just Pilot? The Tech attribute and the percentile skill system are great, though.
Because "rocket jock" is nearly Palladium-level awesomeness. I don't have the game, nor do I especially want it as I'd rather concoct my own 1970s/80s sleazy sci fi setting cobbled from Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Battlestar Galactica, Star Crash, and other classics of that type.
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PURE JOY
I'm going to have to see how Traveller works for that...WEG Star Wars might be a better fit.
Quote from: Dumarest;999606Definitely more. They should have named him Steely Dan.
And given him a built in electric guitar.
Quote from: Aglondir;999615It's a great game, and sadly overlooked, but not perfect. Some of the gennies (genetically engineered humans) give me pause.
I like the idea of Gennies. They replace what we might use machines and robots for. So in XXVc, while there are AI beings, there really isn't a lot going on along the lines of Transhuman themes. It's a Sci-Fi setting which hasn't been overly influenced by Cyberpunk. I would guess that in this setting, Gennies are cheaper than robots.
Quote from: Aglondir;999615I don't have the game on hand, but I'm thinking about the guys that could fly around in deep space.
That would be the Spacers. I don't think their ability to fly was anywhere near interplanetary. I'm not really sure what their purpose was. Belters made a bit more sense. All the humanoid Gennies were meant to do some specific job. Similarly, animal Gennies were designed for specific niches, filling in gaps in the ecosystems of a terraformed Mars and Venus, for instance. Plant Gennies are the future of GMOs which is already being outdated by Gene Editing. Heck, if an OSR was updated to reflect some current science, they might just 3D print whatever life they need and then let them become a species and do the rest, in the case of plants and animals.
Quote from: Aglondir;999615Also, the class name "rocket jock" irked me; why not just Pilot? The Tech attribute and the percentile skill system are great, though.
I'm pretty sure the players in my old game wrote Pilot on their sheets. :D
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999626And given him a built in electric guitar.
I think a keytar fits the feathered hair aesthetic better...
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And tell me this doesn't look like a bunch of futuristic PCs who just debarked their spaceship, [ATTACH=CONFIG]1757[/ATTACH]
ready to save the funky universe
If you're into 60s/70s sci fi, you need to check this out:
[video=youtube;jkuJG1_2MnU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkuJG1_2MnU[/youtube]
Did someone say space disco?
[video=youtube;lrKjawtXY3s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrKjawtXY3s[/youtube]
[video=youtube;P_ukfGAd8T4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ukfGAd8T4[/youtube]
[video=youtube;J7UwSVsiwzI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7UwSVsiwzI[/youtube]
Though actually 1980s space (like the Buck Rogers game) is probably more accurately conveyed by the spacesynth subgenre of Italo Disco (which was big from 80 to 87 or so). Artists like KOTO and Laserdance among others.
I tried watching Starship Exeter and a couple of those other fan-made shows...the best part was the green girl and Lou Ferrigno.
Artistically, at least, I sure liked the look of the other Buck Rogers better than this game.
i really liked it back in the day, i still like the setting and would love an update for it :)
Quote from: Aglondir;999615Also, the class name "rocket jock" irked me; why not just Pilot?
IIRC, "rocket jock" is slang from the comics.
What's wrong with "rocket jock?"
Quote from: David Johansen;999267I've read that TSR titled it XXVc. because their research showed that the name "Buck Rogers" actually reduced people's interest in buying it.
Hard to believe they actually did research.
I definitely think it's stupid to create a new setting for existing IP characters. People might want to fight the Han in AD 2419 or disco with the Draconian Empire in 2492, but existing space/planetary opera characters in a new semi-hard-sf setting seems senseless and certainly I had no desire for this, whereas I'd have likely bought a "generic D&D in space space opera game - oh and here's a setting".
Quote from: S'mon;1000854Hard to believe they actually did research.
I definitely think it's stupid to create a new setting for existing IP characters. People might want to fight the Han in AD 2419 or disco with the Draconian Empire in 2492, but existing space/planetary opera characters in a new semi-hard-sf setting seems senseless and certainly I had no desire for this, whereas I'd have likely bought a "generic D&D in space space opera game - oh and here's a setting".
Yeah.
It's also damning that people actively didn't want to buy Buck Rogers and yet Williams insisted a second game be made.
"News told, rumors heard, truth implied, facts buried."
The source, and it was long ago so my memory is foggy, was probably a Ryan Dancy post back around when third edition came out, there's a smaller chance it was in a post WotC Dragon magazine. No promises, a number of TSR staffers have commented on things over the years and XXVc. has even been discussed on line every couple years in threads like this one.
Didn't Williams own TSR outright? Throwing resources at Buck Rogers was a bad idea, but I don't see how, given that she owned TSR, it was more financially advantageous to her to license her IP to her company than to pursue other things.
Perhaps, having grown up surrounded by Buck Rogers, in her mind it was the greatest thing ever and a surefire hit if it could just be marketed the right way.
Quote from: David Johansen;1001716The source, and it was long ago so my memory is foggy, was probably a Ryan Dancy post back around when third edition came out, there's a smaller chance it was in a post WotC Dragon magazine. No promises, a number of TSR staffers have commented on things over the years and XXVc. has even been discussed on line every couple years in threads like this one.
And Dancy's internet statements, and that's all they are, have had elements refuted by subsquent research by Ewalt and Peterson so there's good reason to take his statements with a grain of salt until some actual facts from a reliable source are unearthed.
And internet threads are not reliable sources for anything. Particularly when who stated what and when isn't even available.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1001766Didn't Williams own TSR outright? Throwing resources at Buck Rogers was a bad idea, but I don't see how, given that she owned TSR, it was more financially advantageous to her to license her IP to her company than to pursue other things.
Perhaps, having grown up surrounded by Buck Rogers, in her mind it was the greatest thing ever and a surefire hit if it could just be marketed the right way.
If that's the case and she was throwing money at it, all she was doing was losing her own money. I find it hard to believe anyone would deliberately lose money and bankrupt their own business with no apparent benefit from it.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1001766Didn't Williams own TSR outright? Throwing resources at Buck Rogers was a bad idea, but I don't see how, given that she owned TSR, it was more financially advantageous to her to license her IP to her company than to pursue other things.
First, she didn't own it. She was the head of the board of TSR.
Second, because it's double-dipping. If I rent out my land, say, to the company I run, I'm getting not only the profits everyone else gets but also the money from renting that land.
I really enjoyed XXVc, and I always felt that it could - or should - have been the science fiction AD&D core boxset that everyone used for general science fiction games. They could have simplified the starship rules a bit but it was a solid system.
I'm a huge fan of the original Buck Rogers serial so having the same kind of 'rocketships and ray-guns' imagery in the game was nice, but it was so far removed from the actual hard-ish science fiction setting it jarred. If they'd dropped the Buck Rogers angle, just released it as a core rulebook/boxset and then added campaign settings a la AD&D then I feel it could have done a lot better.
I got a couple of great campaigns out of it, and even used old AD&D modules for adventures and just swapped swords for rocket pistols. It was a good game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1003519First, she didn't own it. She was the head of the board of TSR.
She bought the Blumes' and Gygax's shares; I think that was the entire company. AFAIK she didn't sell it to anyone else until the WotC buyout.
QuoteSecond, because it's double-dipping. If I rent out my land, say, to the company I run, I'm getting not only the profits everyone else gets but also the money from renting that land.
It's easier to just give yourself a pay increase if what you want is more money from your own company. Renting your land to yourself is more trouble than it's worth.
Quote from: fearsomepirate;1003697She bought the Blumes' and Gygax's shares; I think that was the entire company. AFAIK she didn't sell it to anyone else until the WotC buyout.
If that was genuinely the case, then it was a solely owned corporation, and the ethical issues are less. If she was just a majority shareholder and head of the board, then it would be an issue if she funneled money from it to her and her families solely owned property. There's still some issues, as being sole owner of a company is different than owning the BR IP (for instance, she likely was able to hold onto the Buck Rogers IP when TSR declared bankruptcy), but much fewer.
I am trying to put the best spin on it. Even assuming nothing unethical, it's a good example of how compromised priorities lead to bad business decisions.
My guess is that given who Williams was, given how little she understood the burgeoning gaming world of the 1980s, and given how sci-fi like Star Trek: TNG, Star Wars, and so on were big hits, she thought Buck Rogers would be sure thing. It's a laughable idea to anyone outside. Buck Rogers? In the 1990s? Really? But I will bet that for Williams, she had a lot of feelings and love toward ol' Buck and was sure everyone else would feel the same way.
The follow-up to the first XXVc failure could just as well have been her refusal to admit to herself that no one under 65 gave a crap about Buck Rogers.
Buck Rogers was owned by a family trust. It's entirely possible, for example, that by funneling revenue into the trust as opposed to taking profits directly from TSR that there were tax advantages.
I'm not saying there was or wasn't; only that to say there was no benefit either way isn't exactly a sure statement.
EDIT - another example would be if there was a profit-sharing plan in the TSR structure. Revenue could be funneled to non-shared family trust and kept out of the share pool, because it would be a loss on TSRs ledgers from returned (non-sold) books out of the wholesale system. There's lots of scenarios where it's financially a better deal to shift revenues from one entity to the other.
At the minimum, Gary Gygax wasn't going to get any royalties from XXVc.
Came across this tonight.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/question-who-owns-buck-rogers-heads-trial-1033309?
Yeah, in any case, it was still shifting around money for personal benefit.
Still no proof of any of that being true Pundit.
Come back when you're got some actual facts not suppositions based on internet rumour and let's post it to a Linda Williams thread so this one that was supposed to be about the game, that most seem to agree was pretty excellent, can get back OT.
Lorraine Williams. I don't see what evidence is necessary. If I have an Insurance firm and inherited a coffee brand and decide that my Insurance Firm will buy all its coffee from the brand I inherited, where I'm getting profits from coffee sales of my Insurance company to my coffee fortune, it's obvious I'm not doing that at a loss.
The woman was a vampire. Her only real interest in TSR was bleeding it dry.
It's only profitable to you if the return you're getting from the license deal exceeds the value the company is losing due to your mismanagement of it. Williams bought TSR for cash. I don't know the sale price...did she sell it for more or less than she bought it for?
Was there a bankruptcy and creditors in the middle, or did WotC buy it directly from her?
The story as I heard it on the internet, possibly from Chrine, Gronan, or Shannon's columns, is that Gary brought Lorraine in to help him get control of the company after he came back from California and she bought the Blume's shares which with someone else gave her controlling interest and let her oust Gary from management. I don't know if he sold off his shares after that or still had a few. I think it was Jeff Grubb who wrote the bit I read about the climate at TSR after she took charge with playtesting disallowed and her disdain for their customer base. Yes, weak citations, I suspect someone out there who has a more academic bent has collected a lot of these things. My google fu is weak but fortunately there's Wikipedia!
Jon Peterson wrote the only properly researched article on what happened here. (https://medium.com/@increment/the-ambush-at-sheridan-springs-3a29d07f6836) Gygax had the opportunity to purchase the Blumes shares but after promising to do so failed to do so.
That's a very good article.
The whole history of TSR, even in its most brilliant era (to say nothing of later) was a long epic of gross mismanagement.
Quote from: David Johansen;1004906... I think it was Jeff Grubb who wrote the bit I read about the climate at TSR after she took charge with playtesting disallowed and her disdain for their customer base. Yes, weak citations, I suspect someone out there who has a more academic bent has collected a lot of these things. My google fu is weak but fortunately there's Wikipedia!
I have read Grubbs complain about management at TSR (who doesn't complain about management at work?) but not Williams in particular, but Mike Breault refuted the claims that playtesting was disallowed and is quoted by Pundit himself on this thread about Lorraine Williams. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?14882-Lorraine-Williams)
I'd suggest further discussion of Williams be moved to that thread.
Fair enough.