My ultimate test of an RPG system's capability comes from determining how well that system handles Kaiju or Ultraman. Can it handle them at all competently? Quite a few don't pass that test.
BRP does handle Kaiju scale creatures pretty competently. I was surprised by that.
Things of that size are terrifying in BRP games, you can't just hit them with your stick.
In the Mythras game I was playing our solution to the T-Rex problem was to run until we found someone slower for him to eat.
There are a lot of RPGs that don't pass the Kaiju test. The most famous of which happens to be D&D. It just doesn't deal with that scale in any way.
Generic, scifi, and superhero RPGs should address the issue. But most don't. And that's a real problem. Because games that are about everything should be able to cover everything. The biggest and smallest extremes. But most do not.
This becomes a problem when you have games that try to adapt properties that do have those extremes present. Like Marvel or DC.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on January 23, 2024, 06:04:14 AM
There are a lot of RPGs that don't pass the Kaiju test. The most famous of which happens to be D&D. It just doesn't deal with that scale in any way.
Generic, scifi, and superhero RPGs should address the issue. But most don't. And that's a real problem. Because games that are about everything should be able to cover everything. The biggest and smallest extremes. But most do not.
This becomes a problem when you have games that try to adapt properties that do have those extremes present. Like Marvel or DC.
Absolutely agree with every word.
Marvel Heroic doesn't just handle kaiju scale, it handles Annihilation fleet-scale. But it's a filthy hippie storygame, so I don't know if it counts here.
I'm a little surprised to hear BRP scales to kaiju level because my experience with the system is that it would handle it about the same way GURPS or D&D does: just multiply hit points and damage dice by a thousand or so.
Quote from: daniel_ream on January 23, 2024, 08:33:40 AM
Marvel Heroic doesn't just handle kaiju scale, it handles Annihilation fleet-scale. But it's a filthy hippie storygame, so I don't know if it counts here.
I'm a little surprised to hear BRP scales to kaiju level because my experience with the system is that it would handle it about the same way GURPS or D&D does: just multiply hit points and damage dice by a thousand or so.
Out of print. So MHR doesn't count. It's not available.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on January 23, 2024, 01:45:38 AM
My ultimate test of an RPG system's capability comes from determining how well that system handles Kaiju or Ultraman. Can it handle them at all competently? Quite a few don't pass that test.
BRP does handle Kaiju scale creatures pretty competently. I was surprised by that.
I'd be interested to hear what you think are the common pitfalls, and how BRP avoids them.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 23, 2024, 09:23:00 AM
I'd be interested to hear what you think are the common pitfalls, and how BRP avoids them.
The big thing it has to handle is the scale. The system has to handle it in creature creation and/or character creation. Which the current BRP does. It does so without unnecessary complexity.
Most Kaiju are Cthulhu size in scale. Which BRP handles smoothly. BRP established SIZ from the outset. So it's only a matter of scaling up or down,
I'll give you an example of a game system that does not. The Hero System. The map scale doesn't work, and how giant-sized creatures are handled is clunky and not user-friendly in character creation. So much that the system buckles at that scale. It actually got worse in terms of map scale with the removal of hex-based movement.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on January 23, 2024, 09:03:07 AM
Out of print. So MHR doesn't count. It's not available.
Fine, "Cortex Prime using the Heroic options for Large-scale Threats", since you're determined to be pedantic about it.
Quote from: Llew ap Hywel on January 23, 2024, 04:38:47 AM
Things of that size are terrifying in BRP games, you can't just hit them with your stick.
You can actually just hit them with a stick or whatever else you want. The cool part is that it just doesn't do much of anything. Huge things are very easy to hit, being the proverbial broad side of a barn in size. Actually causing real damage or sometimes even getting something that size to even notice you is another matter.
I actually like BRP but I find it as clunky as any other system when it comes to giant creatures.
The Size scaling is simple enough, but how can a human Dodge or Parry Godzilla'a stomping giant foot?
You would need to sprint to get out of the way and that can't be done out of turn. Sure, there are lots of ways to make rulings about it, but that's what I mean about being clunky. The fact is, without anime style power to jump so high you can basically fly and be able to break any fall so as to be immune to fall damage, there's no way to actually fight a creature larger than a 2 story building outside of parkour fighting like Shadow of the Colossus.
Like I said, I really like the system so I am not hating on it. I am curious on your thoughts on what you meant by "it does Kaijus".
If you meant just the mere idea of having a Size stat, then I agree that's a great attribute that other games should copy or adapt.
Quote from: Cipher on January 23, 2024, 12:26:17 PM
I actually like BRP but I find it as clunky as any other system when it comes to giant creatures.
The Size scaling is simple enough, but how can a human Dodge or Parry Godzilla'a stomping giant foot?
You would need to sprint to get out of the way and that can't be done out of turn. Sure, there are lots of ways to make rulings about it, but that's what I mean about being clunky. The fact is, without anime style power to jump so high you can basically fly and be able to break any fall so as to be immune to fall damage, there's no way to actually fight a creature larger than a 2 story building outside of parkour fighting like Shadow of the Colossus.
Like I said, I really like the system so I am not hating on it. I am curious on your thoughts on what you meant by "it does Kaijus".
If you meant just the mere idea of having a Size stat, then I agree that's a great attribute that other games should copy or adapt.
When a creature gets to a certain size & weight the idea of parrying is laughable. Depending on size even dodging isn't really feasible. All you can do against such things is keep your distance and don't come within range of its feet. How is one supposed to make a reactionary defensive leap when footprint is twenty or so feet long? Not really gonna happen without some kind of superhuman powers. This simply means that unless you are playing a supers game, creatures of this scale are hazards to be avoided and not actual foes that can be fought.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 23, 2024, 03:37:41 PM
Quote from: Cipher on January 23, 2024, 12:26:17 PM
I actually like BRP but I find it as clunky as any other system when it comes to giant creatures.
The Size scaling is simple enough, but how can a human Dodge or Parry Godzilla'a stomping giant foot?
You would need to sprint to get out of the way and that can't be done out of turn. Sure, there are lots of ways to make rulings about it, but that's what I mean about being clunky. The fact is, without anime style power to jump so high you can basically fly and be able to break any fall so as to be immune to fall damage, there's no way to actually fight a creature larger than a 2 story building outside of parkour fighting like Shadow of the Colossus.
Like I said, I really like the system so I am not hating on it. I am curious on your thoughts on what you meant by "it does Kaijus".
If you meant just the mere idea of having a Size stat, then I agree that's a great attribute that other games should copy or adapt.
When a creature gets to a certain size & weight the idea of parrying is laughable. Depending on size even dodging isn't really feasible. All you can do against such things is keep your distance and don't come within range of its feet. How is one supposed to make a reactionary defensive leap when footprint is twenty or so feet long? Not really gonna happen without some kind of superhuman powers. This simply means that unless you are playing a supers game, creatures of this scale are hazards to be avoided and not actual foes that can be fought.
That's precisely what I mean. If they are "hazards to be avoided and not foes to be fought" then how does that mean that BRP handles them any differently than any other system that has rules for hazards?
The book mentions damage bonus in a chart of Str + Size for the actual value and an idea on how to scale that, but at that point Godzilla's foot will just stomp and not only destroy everything under it, but create a shockwave that will blast around the foot. That's not handled at all on the system.
The system just says "well, a creature of this size will deal so and so extra dice of damage". What about the shockwave? So it doesn't really handle Kaiju or even Giant sized creatures out of the box. You have to homebrew some stuff for that.
Which is 100% fine, but then how does BRP handle Kaijus in a way that Hero system or GURPs doesn't? That's my question here.
And this is coming from someone who likes the system, but every single times sizes of that scale come into play they always require special rules and I don't see it being any different with BRP.
Quote from: daniel_ream on January 23, 2024, 10:26:18 AM
Fine, "Cortex Prime using the Heroic options for Large-scale Threats", since you're determined to be pedantic about it.
I'm determined to forget Cortex exists after my miserable experiences with MHR.
But does it handle super-humans fighting them as in Godzilla Final Wars?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKNHZks9ipk
Quote from: JeremyR on January 25, 2024, 08:08:32 PM
But does it handle super-humans fighting them as in Godzilla Final Wars?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKNHZks9ipk
Yes, it does.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on January 26, 2024, 04:40:21 AM
HOW!?! You can't just claim something is handled well in a game without some sort of explanation of the relevant rules.
In BRP, you have Parry and Dodge rules. Well, Ultraman can parry an attack by Jirass but a normal human can't. What is the breakpoint of how big something has to be to be able to fight like that?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 26, 2024, 10:05:00 AM
HOW!?! You can't just claim something is handled well in a game without some sort of explanation of the relevant rules.
That type of answer doesn't come free. Pay me, and I'll think about it.
Quote from: Cipher on January 23, 2024, 12:26:17 PM
I actually like BRP but I find it as clunky as any other system when it comes to giant creatures.
The Size scaling is simple enough, but how can a human Dodge or Parry Godzilla'a stomping giant foot?
Parrying would be impossible, yes. But dodging depends a bit on which Godzilla you're talking about. Original or the Minus One version was just 50m tall so his feet were probably only 20-30' long and 10-20' wide so you only have to clear 5-15' diving out of the way as it comes down.
By contrast, the Legendary Pictures one from the recent US films has a foot that is 23 meters (75 feet) across... meaning you need to clear up to 37 feet in the time before the foot comes down.
The first requires a relatively easy 6-7 mph to get out from under even if you were dead center. The latter requires a humanly impossible 25 mph escape from a dead center foot stomp.
I actually have a 50m tall mecha-kaiju in my setting. Its feet are represented by two 25' x 25' pieces of blocking terrain that require Reflexes or Acrobatics checks to avoid and deal threat based on how much you miss the check by (threat burns up Edge, your pool for avoiding actual wounds), pushes you to outside the area if you have any Edge left, or turns you to instant paste if you have insufficient Edge to avoid it.
It gets to move each leg once per turn in addition to its tail swipe and disintegration beam.
Swords and even PC-scale spells can't do much beyond scuffing the paint from the outside (short of bombardment by the equivalent of a frigate's worth of guided missiles; in a post-apocalyptic science-fantasy setting; there's basically nothing that can bring the thing down from the outside).
The only PC viable way to bring it down is find and blow an access hatch, climb up through the mecha-kaiju's internal defenses and take out its "brain."