Does anyone here have any opinions on the relative merits of Chaosium's BRP-based Elric! (the version from 1993, identical to Stormbringer 5e, I believe) and Mongoose's more recent MRQ-based Elric RPG?
I own BRP Elric!, and am reading it for the first time in years. I like it! However, I have no idea how it compares to the Mongoose version.
Also, is there any point in picking up the first edition of Stormbringer? Some people seem to praise it over later editions (T Foster and Philotomy Jurant, iirc), but I keep forgetting why. (Given how expensive copies of 1e are, though, it would have to be significantly superior to Elric! for me to try to obtain a copy.)
Thanks! :)
As far as I remember, Mongoose's Elric is referenced as the paradigm example of what was wrong with early d20 3pp stuff. It's basically a reprint of the BRP, with some d20 stats tacked on top which clearly indicate that their authors had not even looked at the D&D 3.0 ruleset.
I guess that's good news for you.
Quote from: Windjammer;344511As far as I remember, Mongoose's Elric is referenced as the paradigm example of what was wrong with early d20 3pp stuff. It's basically a reprint of the BRP, with some d20 stats tacked on top which clearly indicate that their authors had not even looked at the D&D 3.0 ruleset.
I guess that's good news for you.
There was a d20 version of Elric ('Dragon Lords of Melnibone'?), but the current Mongoose version isn't that. It's based on their version of RuneQuest, and has nothing to do with d20/3e.
Quote from: Akrasia;344507Does anyone here have any opinions on the relative merits of Chaosium's BRP-based Elric! (the version from 1993, identical to Stormbringer 5e, I believe) and Mongoose's more recent MRQ-based Elric RPG?
Yes, Elric and Stormbringer 5th are
almost the same, the differences are minimal.
QuoteI own BRP Elric!, and am reading it for the first time in years. I like it! However, I have no idea how it compares to the Mongoose version.
Sorry, I can't help you, I don't have the Mongoose version. I've heard good thing about it, though.
QuoteAlso, is there any point in picking up the first edition of Stormbringer? Some people seem to praise it over later editions (T Foster and Philotomy Jurant, iirc), but I keep forgetting why. (Given how expensive copies of 1e are, though, it would have to be significantly superior to Elric! for me to try to obtain a copy.)
Thanks! :)
I don't think one is strictly better than the other, they're different animals. Stormbringer 1st was very savage and heavily unbalanced, whereas Stormbringer 5th/Elric is balanced and solid as a rock.
If you have one of the latest Chaosium-editions, I'd say you're pretty good to go.
Mongoose's work is pretty good, I hear. Specially the fluff.
However...with MRQ2 coming up(with some heavy hitters behind the re-writing wheel), it might be a good idea to decide whether you want to snag some of their books now - or wait.
I don't know what their plans are for Elric. They might let it be as is, or they might release a new edition of that as well.
I haven't looked at the Mongoose version; as for the BRP versions I also haven't read them closely enough to really offer a comparison. But just to complicate things, from what I've read, BRP Stormbringer 4e is pretty different from both 1e-3e and Elric!/SB 5e.
I've never seen MRQ Elric so I can't speak to it, but regarding the difference between BRP Elric and earlier editions of Stormbringer, the main differences were that in Stormbringer char-gen was extremely random and unbalanced (both homeland and profession were rolled on tables, with possibilities ranging from extremely powerful Melnibonean nobles and Pan Tangian sorcerers down to Nadsokorian beggars with multiple (also randomly-rolled) afflictions including missing limbs, etc.) -- imagine, say, a D&D game where each player rolls 2d6-2 to determine the starting level of their character: most will be in the level 4-6 range but some will be 10th level and others will be 0-level mooks -- and the magic system which was based entirely on summoning, binding, and commanding various types of demons. Elric did away with both of those in favor of more balanced char-gen and spell-based magic, and while the resulting game is much more balanced and traditional, it IMO loses way too much of the flavor that made the original so distinctive, and such a fun change of pace from other games. SB was very dark and violent had an invariably high PC bodycount (at least the way we played it) -- Elric just felt like pretty much every other fantasy RPG.
I actually have the 1st edition Stormbringer, BRP Elric, 5th Edition Stormbringer and the MRQ version of Elric and MRQ Hawkmoon as well. Yeah, I spend way too much money.
IMHO you are probably best off sticking with what you have. The Mongoose stuff is well written but I can't honestly say that the MRQ Elric adds anything new or innovative to the game and I ended up just reading it and putting it aside. The only real value is if you want to use some of the upcoming Mongoose material for Elric or Hawkmoon and don't own MRQ or don't feel like converting it to your BRP version.
First off, I agree with T. Foster, the earlier verisons were deadlier and we liked that too. As far as the first edition of Stormbringer specifically, there were just some rules in there I liked for Agents of Law, Chaos, Balance, and the Elements which give the agent some abilities that were omitted in later versions. They don't really affect the playability of the game, I just liked the agents of the various powers being more bad-ass and in first edition, for instance, Agents of Law drink a potion that makes them tougher (double CON IIRC), longer lived, and sterile and get virtue weapons. Agents of Chaos have an easier time binding demons and their amulet can warn them of some forms of danger, etc. Despite the omission of stuff like that in later editions, I think Elric and the 5th Edition Stormbringer improved on the mechanics overall.
I hope this helps. If you want any more specifics I can dig through my closet for the first edition.
Quote from: T. Foster;344531and the magic system which was based entirely on summoning, binding, and commanding various types of demons. Elric did away with both of those in favor of more balanced char-gen and spell-based magic,
Elric does have a demon summoning system. The difference is that in earlier editions of Stormbringer, the only magic available was demon summoning, whereas in Elric you have demon summoning and other (very bland) spells.
The Unknown East and Corum* supplements include new magic systems, both of them I'd recommend.
*= If I recall correctly, I read in rpg.net that you (Akrasia) had ordered Corum. A great supplement!
Quote from: Claudius;344601The Unknown East and Corum* supplements include new magic systems, both of them I'd recommend.
Are you referring to the
Corum supplement from Darcsyde Press that was produced for the Chaosium edition? I'd heard that it was the bee's knees, but never bought a copy.
!i!
Corum is a seriously good add-on for Stormbringer.
Not only for a very neat take on magic(both law and chaos), but also for being a generally good setting.
If you can get it without bankrupting yourself, it comes highly recommended.
Quote from: Claudius;344601Elric does have a demon summoning system. The difference is that in earlier editions of Stormbringer, the only magic available was demon summoning, whereas in Elric you have demon summoning and other (very bland) spells.
The Unknown East and Corum* supplements include new magic systems, both of them I'd recommend.
*= If I recall correctly, I read in rpg.net that you (Akrasia) had ordered Corum. A great supplement!
I bought so many Stormbringer editions I can't remember all the rules but although they kept summoning in Elric, didn't they do away with demon and elemental bindings in the later edition in favor of more magic spells? IIRC you could still summon demons and elementals and command services from them but you couldn't bind them into weapons, armor, etc. which was a huge deal in the first edition. They don't have binding rules in Mongoose's version either because I think I remember reading in his character description that Jagreen Lern had all these demons bound into his armor and weapons and the rules didn't even allow for that.
Demon armor and weapons really made the earlier versions deadly.
P.S. Concur totally about Corum and Unknown East. Good purchases.
Elric/SB5 still had demon-summoning, and binding them into items. The resulting weapons are still perversely powerful. It only added some relatively low-key spell magic to supplement the summoning rules.
One difference was that demon breeds of older editions disappeared, with summonings becoming either generic demon types or unique builds. The act of summoning went from being a skill, to using the good ol' resistance table.
I have SB5 on my shelf. It is a very good game. I've played SB3 and 4, it was a lot of fun, but the last edition is the better game.
Also, all the sourcebooks, both from Chaosium and from Mongoose, are usable with a minimum of fuzz with SB5.
SB5, on it's own, is a more than decent base for a homegrown BRP-fantasy game.
Does anyone here know if the
Bronze Grimoire is any good? (The version published for
Elric!, in case there are multiple versions.)
Quote from: Grimjack;344619...P.S. Concur totally about Corum and Unknown East. Good purchases.
I ordered
Corum but don't have the
Unknown East coming. Perhaps I should pick it up in the future?
Quote from: Ian Absentia;344604Are you referring to the Corum supplement from Darcsyde Press that was produced for the Chaosium edition? I'd heard that it was the bee's knees, but never bought a copy.
!i!
Yes, the one by Darcsyde. A pity they didn't publish the Hawkmoon supplement.
When I finished reading the Corum supplement, the first thing I thought was "I wish these guys (Darcsyde) had been the authors of the Stormbringer corebook". So much I liked it.
Quote from: Grimjack;344619I bought so many Stormbringer editions I can't remember all the rules but although they kept summoning in Elric, didn't they do away with demon and elemental bindings in the later edition in favor of more magic spells? IIRC you could still summon demons and elementals and command services from them but you couldn't bind them into weapons, armor, etc. which was a huge deal in the first edition.
...
Demon armor and weapons really made the earlier versions deadly.
P.S. Concur totally about Corum and Unknown East. Good purchases.
Quote from: baragei;344628Elric/SB5 still had demon-summoning, and binding them into items. The resulting weapons are still perversely powerful. It only added some relatively low-key spell magic to supplement the summoning rules.
One difference was that demon breeds of older editions disappeared, with summonings becoming either generic demon types or unique builds. The act of summoning went from being a skill, to using the good ol' resistance table.
I have SB5 on my shelf. It is a very good game. I've played SB3 and 4, it was a lot of fun, but the last edition is the better game.
Also, all the sourcebooks, both from Chaosium and from Mongoose, are usable with a minimum of fuzz with SB5.
SB5, on it's own, is a more than decent base for a homegrown BRP-fantasy game.
What baragei said, you can be sure you'll see demon weapons and armors in Stormbringer 5th. I liked the demon summoning rules of earlier editions better, there was more variety of demon powers, and not all powers were chosen by the players, some were chosen by the GM, which gave a lot of unpredictability, you didn't exactly know
what was going to appear after your summoning. :D
Quote from: Akrasia;344630Does anyone here know if the Bronze Grimoire is any good? (The version published for Elric!, in case there are multiple versions.)
It's not bad. It's simply more spells for Elric/Stormbringer 5th. If you liked the spell system of Elric and would like to have more spells, get it, other than that, you can skip it.
QuoteI ordered Corum but don't have the Unknown East coming. Perhaps I should pick it up in the future?
The Unknown East is a supplement about the eastern lands, Elwher, Phum, etc. It's interesting because it includes a freeform magic system à la Mage or Ars Magica. If you like such magic systems you should get it.
Quote from: baragei;344607If you can get [Corum] without bankrupting yourself, it comes highly recommended.
If you're referring to the Darcsyde version, it's apparently still available through Chaosium
here (http://catalog.chaosium.com/product_info.php?products_id=352), at its original list price. Shipping might be an issue, I suppose, as is getting Chaosium to respond to your inquiries.
!i!
You all got me interested in updating my fuzzy memory concerning all the different Stormbringer versions so I dug it out last night and by coincidence both the first edition and Elric were tucked away in the 1st edition box.
I only skimmed a bit to refresh my memory but the major differences I saw in 1st ed. were this:
CHARGEN is indeed different as previously noted.
1st Ed. doesn't have the Chaos/Law/Balance point system where you gain various points in each category for certain activities but does uses elan under which you can lose or gain points for whatever deity you follow.
There are rules for Agents of Law, Chaos, Balance, and Elemental Rulers which are more in depth. Each gains unique benefits for Agent status such as the amulet of chaos or virtue weapons of law. Agents of Chaos get demon binding advantages, Agents of Law get virtue equipment, extra CON points and immortality. Agents of elemental rulers gain bound elementals.
1st Ed. uses ranks 1-5 for Sorcerors to determine what kind of summonings they can perform. Only Melniboneans have enough INT and POW to reach the highest rank.
1st Ed. has no spells or demon breeds. Summonings are skills instead of spells, for example "Summon Demon of Combat: 60%". Demon types are listed as: Combat, Protection, Transport, Knowledge, Possession and Desire. You bind the appropriate type to get the effect you want, so for example a demon of protection is bound into armor, a demon of transport can become a teleportation ring or a magic horse, etc. Demons are summoned with the power characteristic roll. Other characteristics are assigned by the summoner based upon the type of demon and are limited by the summoners total attribute points.
There are no "daily needs" for demons to keep them bound (eat a living creature daily, etc.) but they do use power for certain effects and can run out.
There are specific elemental binding effects. Bind a fire elemental into a sword for a +1d6 flaming sword for example. An air elemental cloak can blow arrows off course, etc.
Virtues- essentially lawful demons. A virtue of combat for example causes whatever it is bound into to do maximum rolled damage and can damage demons and magical creatures.
Those are the highlights that hit me from 1ed. I have to say that Chaosium did make some nice improvements in the Elric/5ed though, so apart from the fact that I like some of the quirky rules from 1ed I think Elric is probably the more playable of the two versions. I just kept the rules I liked from 1ed.
I'll check out the Mongoose version next and compare since I have that too.
Finally, the Unknown East does have a novel twist on the magic system as mentioned previously. I never used it that I can recall but it always seemed cool.
Thanks for the rundown on SB1e versus Elric/SB5e, Grimjack. It helped me decide against getting 1e. Despite sounding cool, I think that I'm fond enough of Elric!/5e to not sink $50+ into 1e.
So, in case anyone is curious, I ended up ordering the following things from Noble Knight (a belated birthday gift to myself):
Atlas of the Young Kingdoms: The Northern Continent
The Bronze Grimoire
Fate of Fools
GM Screen & Scenario (for Elric! -- for some reason I'm a complete sucker for these things)
Stormbringer 5e (Yeah, I already own Elric!, but I wanted an additional copy of the rules)
Elric of Melnibone (to get check out the MRQ version)
I also have Corum coming at some point (*sigh* ... Chaosium doesn't seem to be moving on my order very quickly!).
I have a few things stored in my parents' basement back in London Ontario, which I'll dig out during the holidays (I haven't looked at them in over a decade). Among them, an adventure for both Hawkmoon (1e) and Stormbringer (probably 3-4e) called (iirc) The Shattered Isle. It's set in Hawkmoon's version of Ireland. Having recently lived in Ireland for three years, I'm especially curious to look at this!
Thanks to everyone who contributed this thread for your help! :)
I love my Stormbringer 3e. It's mostly just a cleaned up 2e that combines the 2e Companion into the main book. Ken St. Andre did a great job and the game is just a wonderfully gonzo unbalanced mess of fun.
Quote from: Akrasia;344809Thanks for the rundown on SB1e versus Elric/SB5e, Grimjack. It helped me decide against getting 1e. Despite sounding cool, I think that I'm fond enough of Elric!/5e to not sink $50+ into 1e.
My pleasure. It was good Nostalgia going through all the old stuff. I didn't realize 1e would set you back $50! You are definitely better off with the 5e unless you are a collector then. I think you might be a little disappointed by Mongoose's Elric. It is pretty much a rehash of 5e background material and unless you are fond of the MRQ rules there really isn't anything new in there (plus they are revising the MRQ rules anyway).
Your purchase list sounds good. Personally if I was going to spend money on older Stormbringer material I would buy the modules and supplements. They had some interesting material in them which should translate to 5e with a little tinkering. I still use some of it today.
Happy gaming.
I was going through some of my old stuff and I noticed two more books which were excellent IMHO. The Stormbringer Companion and Demon Magic - The Second Stormbringer Companion both had some excellent rule additions and scenarios. It would take some conversion since they were 1st ed rules but if the books aren't too expensive they are an interesting read.
BTW, the supplements really illustrate the deadliness of the 1ed rules when you have demon daggers that do 1d4 + 7d6 damage! Keeps the players on their toes.
My memories of playing Elric seemed to be that generally, that sort of thing was very rare, though, in terms of those sorts of items and power level showing up.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;345857My memories of playing Elric seemed to be that generally, that sort of thing was very rare, though, in terms of those sorts of items and power level showing up.
RPGPundit
I think that is true of Elric but in Stormbringer 1e the power levels were dialed way up on items and bound demons and elementals were more common. I think that made up for the fact that unlike in Elric there wasn't any other type of magic available in 1e.
The particular dagger I referred to belonged to an assassin who was the henchwoman/assassin of an exiled Pan Tangian, and he and each of his bodyguards had equally or even more impressive demon armor and weapons. Not exactly a common NPC admittedly but not all that unusual.
In the published scenarios IIRC demon items weren't all that rare and the ones available could really carve players up quickly if they didn't have their own bound items to counter it.
Hi all,
I recently picked up 5th Ed. Stormbringer (Chaosium) and the Corum add-on. Many years ago I had Stormbringer, and although it wasn't so easy to play, the atmosphere and darkness of it was fantastic. The new one is a bit more playable and the good thing is that it's stand-alone (you don't need to buy another rulebook).
Someone mentioned rolling for race + class.. this is optional and completely up to the GM. It's simply to avoid all the players choosing to be Melnibonean, and therefore quite powerful. It's also to give a sense of reality, eg. if you come from Nadsokor, you are quite likely to be a beggar.
I also recently picked up the Hawkmoon RPG (Mongoose) and the Granbretan add-on. I haven't read it yet, but it's another self-contained RPG. It's not necessary to have the Runequest rulebook to play it.
FYI - according to the Mongoose website, the RuneQuest II edition of Elric will be available in August 2010.
I was thinking of getting the Mongoose Elric at some point, but I think I'll stick to Stormbringer as I don't need to buy a separate rulebook and, from what I've read on this forum, SB seems as good if not better.
Mojius
Quote from: Windjammer;344511As far as I remember, Mongoose's Elric is referenced as the paradigm example of what was wrong with early d20 3pp stuff. It's basically a reprint of the BRP, with some d20 stats tacked on top which clearly indicate that their authors had not even looked at the D&D 3.0 ruleset.
I guess that's good news for you.
Yeah, like Akrasia said, you're talking about
Dragon Lords of Melniboné, which basically copies a part of
Stormbringer's text and staples d20 stats to it. Very poorly, I might add. It's... bad.
Now Mongoose's
Elric is based on RuneQuest, and is a different animal altogether. I haven't had the chance to check it out personally. I've got
Stormbringer 5th edition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer_%28role-playing_game%29), which is the latest, post-Elric, Chaosium edition of 2001, as well as
Hawkmoon Nouvelle Edition, the Non-Mongoose French reboot of the original game, and consider myself set in this regard.
Quote from: Akrasia;344630I ordered Corum but don't have the Unknown East coming. Perhaps I should pick it up in the future?
Don't know about the latter. Never picked it up. But the
Corum sourcebook for
Stormbringer is awesome. I haz it. Thumbs up.
Unknown East is worth getting for a fan, but not essential. The details of the eastern lands are a trifle uninspired. The new magic system gets some praise from BRP fans, but I've never liked freeform magic so YMMV.
Though I am not one to pimp my own stuff, the Slaves of Fate adventure for Dragon Lords of Melnibone has gotten a lot of praise. It's for the d20 version, admittedly, but stats adapting it to Stormbringer are available on Chaosium's website somewhere.
If it means anything, the adventure was written for Elric!, then I ported the stats over to the d20 version, then when Stormbringer 5th edition came out, I asked Chaosium to publish the adapted stats for NPCs, monsters, etc.
Unfortunately, the fiasco between Chaosium and Wizard's Attic meant that a ton of the books were dumped straight into the remaindered book market, which means you're more likely to find new copies at a Half Price Books than to be able to order them new from your FLGS or local bookstore.
Mildly surprised to see some minor necromancy cast on this thread... :hmm:
In the unlikely event that anyone here is interested, I ended up tracking down everything published for Elric!/Stormbringer 5e over the past five months (I originally posted my query last November). I also obtained the main adventure books for SB4e (I don't own the rules for SB4e, but there are notes on converting SB4e material into Elric! in the book). I'm tempted to purchase a copy of Stormbringer 3e (which is, I believe, essentially 1e + all the supplementary material in one book), but doubt that I can justify the expense to myself...
The Corum book is indeed very good. It radically changes the core magic system in some interesting ways. My only disappointment with it is that it includes only three adventures. I was hoping for a more complete campaign. Nonetheless, a great piece of work. I was naturally disposed to like it: I prefer Moorcock's 'Corum' stories over anything else written by him that I've read (including the Elric stuff).
Quote from: jdurall;381122Though I am not one to pimp my own stuff, the Slaves of Fate adventure for Dragon Lords of Melnibone has gotten a lot of praise. It's for the d20 version, admittedly, but stats adapting it to Stormbringer are available on Chaosium's website somewhere.
If it means anything, the adventure was written for Elric!, then I ported the stats over to the d20 version, then when Stormbringer 5th edition came out, I asked Chaosium to publish the adapted stats for NPCs, monsters, etc.
Unfortunately, the fiasco between Chaosium and Wizard's Attic meant that a ton of the books were dumped straight into the remaindered book market, which means you're more likely to find new copies at a Half Price Books than to be able to order them new from your FLGS or local bookstore.
Thanks for mentioning this, Jason. I'll pick up a copy if I come across one at a reasonable price. :)
Am I right in thinking that when n encounter occurs that the GM assigns everyone's turn-order based on DEX. The highest DEX goes first, the lowest last... is that's what meant by DEX ranks???
sorry if this sounds dumb:confused: