As I said before, if you were in the program for 10 years, you must have been doing something right.

That's why this makes no sense. How do they throw you out of the program because you asked someone to stop harrassing YOU? I'm assuming you can see where my confusion comes from.

Quote from: Werekoala;393248As I said before, if you were in the program for 10 years, you must have been doing something right.
That's why this makes no sense. How do they throw you out of the program because you asked someone to stop harrassing YOU? I'm assuming you can see where my confusion comes from.

See the confusion? I spent MONTHS trying to work it out. The only explanation I ever got was from the head of the program who essentially said "If you had not responded to her , even to the level of asking me to get her off of you you'd still be in the program and she'd be the only one out. Since you responded you're out too." even though my "response" was as written above. Sorry, but not going out of your way to find trouble is one thing. Standing idly by while trouble comes and takes a dump in your lap is another and not a choice I've ever been especially prone to making. I got told not to lash out, to be reasonable and rational. I did so and I got screwed to the wall for it.

Near as I can work out the head of the list/program decided he didn't want to deal with any controversy of any sort and reckoned the best way to handle it was to just exit the pair of us without consideration for things like instigation, response of the attacked party or contributions made to the company as a result of involvement in the program. Incomprehensible to me but hey, their clubhouse, their rules, their loss. This year the vast majority of my participants hadn't even heard of the company I'm with now. Midway through every one of my events I was hearing "Dude, we're so getting this game!"

Ah well, past is past. Whatever regrets I've got are minimal at this point. If nothing else it proved to be a learning experience. Only thing I'm curious about is if there's an expiration date on my unused MIB points. I earned them, fair's fair. And I do know folk who'd be appreciative of some SJG merch for birthdays and such. Might have to go and see.

Quote from: J Arcane;392979I miss the entire GURPS 3 line.  And when SJGames sole target demographic wasn't the people who post on their forums.

If it was, Car Wars and Ogre would be actively and consistently supported, instead of certain marketing people running to almost every game forum any time anyone says they miss those titles about how fucking MUNCHKIN (you know, that game that plays EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME no matter what fluff text and art is on it?) sells better so enjoy your Herpes you silly person who doesn't understand why games you like get ignored because (and sadly you really can't BLAME them for it) its cheaper, easier, and more profitable to just ask Kovalic to draw some new nerd subculture pictures and call it a day.

Course SJGames is also the same company that is reputedly so fucking hard to work with that there hasn't been an electronic game of any of their products since Origin Systems did Autoduel and Ogre in the mid 80s.

Yet... Games Workshop and Fasa/Fanpro/Catalyst/Topps and TSR/WotC all have active electronic game products coming out and are making fat cash and getting all new audiences.  Hell, I would say Mechwarrior 2 is probably the reason Battletech is STILL active to this day while Car Wars is a nonentity.  

(That dipshit 5th edition where there was no construction rules, only low value cars, and you got to rebuy the SAME RULES IN EVERY CAR PACK didn't help of course.)

SJGames and Palladium are good comparisons though.

Kevvy is considered a douchebag company guy, but IRL and at cons he is considered a great dude.  Plus he writes some of the best fucking fluff in hobby gaming period.  He just can't manage a company or write a rules system to save his life.

Big Steve has a far more successful company, but everyone I have ever heard meeting him says he is a royal twat (among other accusations I won't even repeat) and his ability to work with any other non hobby games company seems to be nonexistent.  However he wrote Ogre which is one of the best hex n chit wargames EVER MADE, and still possibly the best introductory game of that genre.  Yet online he doesn't come off as a tool at all.

(Though to be honest the best dude in gaming in general online seems to be Jolly Blackburn.  Homeboy has some serious class and grace.  I even feel bad about hating the shitty overly complex games Kenzer & co makes and the product whoring taking up valuable space in KodT just because of how goddamned NICE that cat is.)

Quote from: Captain Rufus;393326Big Steve has a far more successful company, but everyone I have ever heard meeting him says he is a royal twat (among other accusations I won't even repeat) and his ability to work with any other non hobby games company seems to be nonexistent.  However he wrote Ogre which is one of the best hex n chit wargames EVER MADE, and still possibly the best introductory game of that genre.  Yet online he doesn't come off as a tool at all.

)

 Oh, he comes off as  a major asshole on online a lot too.

 Also, SJG never did get off it's ass and do the "Hot Lead" miniature line it promised to years ago, and it released just a tiny handful of transhuman space miniatures despite a lot of requests for them.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;393326Yet... Games Workshop and Fasa/Fanpro/Catalyst/Topps and TSR/WotC all have active electronic game products coming out and are making fat cash and getting all new audiences.  Hell, I would say Mechwarrior 2 is probably the reason Battletech is STILL active to this day while Car Wars is a nonentity.

I agree with this line of thought, but I think you're mistaken about anything new coming out anytime soon for Battletech or D&D as far as computer games go.  The last I looked, MW5 is still in developer and, probably, legal limbo.  And WotC and Hasbro have served up a big dish of epic fail to not have produced a single D&D 4e computer game by now.  GW, on the other hand, has mastered pimping out their ip in other venues.

But yeah, SJG has been a non-player in computer stuff.  They blew their big chance when they said no to Fallout.  And I'm still mad they advertised, but never actually produced a computer version of Awful Green Things from Outer Space.  

Quote from: mhensley;393360I agree with this line of thought, but I think you're mistaken about anything new coming out anytime soon for Battletech or D&D as far as computer games go.  The last I looked, MW5 is still in developer and, probably, legal limbo.  And WotC and Hasbro have served up a big dish of epic fail to not have produced a single D&D 4e computer game by now.  GW, on the other hand, has mastered pimping out their ip in other venues.

But yeah, SJG has been a non-player in computer stuff.  They blew their big chance when they said no to Fallout.  And I'm still mad they advertised, but never actually produced a computer version of Awful Green Things from Outer Space.  

If Weasel stevie wasn't such a pompous asshole he'd be making a fortune doing an online version of the whole geek thing, with john kovalic inspired 3d models of characters acting out things like chez geek and such on line, kind of like "the sims" except based on the whole geek line, with variants for horror, space and so on.

 He's got all those fucking geek games, he's a putz for not seeing the potential for them as an online gook sim game and the amusement value of JK inspired 3d models.

 Then again he and a lot of his staff are such assholes maybe they can't get anyone to work with them. A lot of people in the pen and paper biz have ended up pissed at them, maybe the computer guys won't touch them.

The way they treated the guy who wrote, I think it was gurps russia was especially offensive and childish, referring to him on line as "He who is not to be named" and such.

I don't know about all of that. The one time I met Steve Jackson at a gaming convention, he was both mild-mannered and good company. He wasn't at the SJG booth that day, and had instead decided to sit in and play some other RPG games incognito.

He's created some really great games over the years from Wizard and Melee, to Ogre, to Car Wars, and then the GURPS line, as well as a host of other games.

Most of all, I think I'd like to see Ogre and GEV back in print, followed by the original Car Wars. Both were really great games. Wrapping Ogre and GEV into an RPG would be all kinds of Awesome!

I wish him well.

Two or three years ago, when Sean Punch (Kromm) was at Gen Con I got the chance to shoot the breeze with him about some things related to GURPS and Steve Jackson.

One question I had was why one version of third edition GURPS switched from using various artists to having Dan Smith ('SMIF') do all the artwork, then there was a brief while Smith didn't do any artwork for SJ Games, then he was back again working for them.

The gist of Sean's response was basically was "Yeah, that confused us too and we were working for him."

The impression I got was that Jackson was mostlly okay to work for but that he sometimes goes through phases or mood changes about how things should look in the books and games. Its nothing overly major, but mild things like what artists they're using at the time.

I did meet Steve Jackson - once back in 97 or 98 when I hadn't been gaming for quite awhile . He was at a small Sci Fi Con in Lexington Kentucky. He did demos of several games and I remember how enthusiastic he was for gaming in general and role-playing games. Also, that he was generous with his time discussing TRIBES and other games with a teenager that was part of our group there.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;393428The impression I got was that Jackson was mostlly okay to work for but that he sometimes goes through phases or mood changes about how things should look in the books and games. Its nothing overly major, but mild things like what artists they're using at the time.

That's pretty damning since the art in Gurps 4e is pretty horrible.

Quote from: RPGPundit;392977I miss the old historical sourcebooks.

That's a comment I see occasionally, but sadly the sales just aren't there in the current market to make a print release profitable. We've done a few historical PDFs, though, and more are in the pipeline.

Quote from: Cylonophile;393332Also, SJG never did get off it's ass and do the "Hot Lead" miniature line it promised to years ago, and it released just a tiny handful of transhuman space miniatures despite a lot of requests for them.

"A lot of requests" doesn't translate into "profitable sales."

Quote from: Cylonophile;393410He's got all those fucking geek games, he's a putz for not seeing the potential for them as an online gook sim game and the amusement value of JK inspired 3d models.

Oh, we certainly see the potential value in putting Munchkin in front of an online audience. But as anyone who works in the computer gaming industry will tell you, getting a good game released requires *much* more than everyone playing nice with each other.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206

Quote from: mhensley;393360But yeah, SJG has been a non-player in computer stuff.  They blew their big chance when they said no to Fallout.  

Steve Jackson Games didn't say "no" to Fallout.

Black Isle and Interplay said "no" to Steve Jackson Games after Steve pushed on an approvals issue regarding some of the content. He thought he had right of approval over the entire game, they claimed it was approval only over usage of the GURPS system. He demanded they change a bit of content, and they responded by stripping out GURPS and replacing it with the SPECIAL system. He only found out after the fact. There were undoubtedly other contributing factors, but that was the proverbial straw.

I had lunch with Steve a few years ago and he told me the whole story. A year after that, I worked with a guy who had been at Black Isle, and he confirmed it.

QuoteThat's a comment I see occasionally, but sadly the sales just aren't there in the current market to make a print release profitable. We've done a few historical PDFs, though, and more are in the pipeline.

Well sure, now that you've redefined your market to consist of "the 300 anal-retentive nerds who still post to our forums", I'd imagine the sales for a lot of things got smaller.

Just like what has happened to HERO over the years.

Quote from: jdurall;393540Steve Jackson Games didn't say "no" to Fallout.

Black Isle and Interplay said "no" to Steve Jackson Games after Steve pushed on an approvals issue regarding some of the content. He thought he had right of approval over the entire game, they claimed it was approval only over usage of the GURPS system. He demanded they change a bit of content, and they responded by stripping out GURPS and replacing it with the SPECIAL system. He only found out after the fact. There were undoubtedly other contributing factors, but that was the proverbial straw.

I had lunch with Steve a few years ago and he told me the whole story. A year after that, I worked with a guy who had been at Black Isle, and he confirmed it.

So, basically, jackson tried to dictate the entire deal on his terms and had a "My way or the highway" attitude and they told him to hit the highway. Good.

Quote from: Cylonophile;393620So, basically, jackson tried to dictate the entire deal on his terms and had a "My way or the highway" attitude and they told him to hit the highway. Good.

Thats not what JDurall said. Of course, what he said doesn't fit your agenda, so no surprise at your response here.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;393625Thats not what JDurall said. Of course, what he said doesn't fit your agenda, so no surprise at your response here.

- Ed C.

 Once again a jackson fhanboi defends his lord.