I can definitely respect the desire for the world to match up with the rules. But personally, I look at it the other way around. I'm dissatisfied with a lot of details of D&D because I find they don't match up with how I'd like a fantasy world to be. It seriously grates on me when, say, the NPCs acknowledge the game setup with lines like "Hello, stranger, I see that you are a new adventurer in town." I just endured a painful sequence in a sessina few weks back where it turned out that a shopkeeper was really a Chaotic Evil Outsider inprisoned in the town, and our Chaotic Evil PC hit him up with lines like, "So, I see that you are of the same. . .persuasion as I am." And then the follow-up party dialogue: "So, Shavi, that shopkeeper is of the same. . .persuasion as you are, isn't he?"

Actually, the whole thing was kinda funny if appreciated in a certain context, but impossible to take seriously. And that brings me to the real crux for me, I guess. There's a certain baseline in a fantasy RPG that I require to take the story seriously. A game with hex-geography, or "basic" and "expert" references, might be enjoyable as a humorous game, but would likely wreck things for me if I wanted to take things seriously.

Peace,
-Joel

The Wilderlands setting is an interesting case: it includes many 'D&D-isms' (lots of evil monsters around, city-states run by very high-level ex-adventurers [usually evil], ancient ruins naturally filled with weird unknown artifacts, etc.).  Yet it rejects a fundamental feature of D&D, namely, the stark contrast between 'good' and 'evil'; it's a very 'grey' place, as is appropriate for a 'swords and sorcery' setting.

Quote from: MelinglorI can definitely respect the desire for the world to match up with the rules. But personally, I look at it the other way around. I'm dissatisfied with a lot of details of D&D because I find they don't match up with how I'd like a fantasy world to be...

Even though I love many 'D&D tropes' I simply refuse to use 'alignment' anymore (at least as some kind of pervasive 'metaphysical force').

Quote from: MelinglorA game with hex-geography, or "basic" and "expert" references, might be enjoyable as a humorous game, but would likely wreck things for me if I wanted to take things seriously.


-Joel

Yeah. I missed this in the Pundit's first post. This would definitely be a mood breaker for me. Also, like Akrasia, I don't use alignment anymore...haven't used it for years.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: AkrasiaEven though I love many 'D&D tropes' I simply refuse to use 'alignment' anymore (at least as some kind of pervasive 'metaphysical force').

A-men, brutha.

(Or Sistah, I've never been sure if that icon's representative:D )

Peace,
-Joel

The actor Billy Bob Thornton looked directly into the camera in the film Sling Blade.  When he was on Inside the Actor's Studio he was asked about breaking the Fourth Wall in that movie.  His response was "What fourth wall?  I don't see a wall there."

That's kinda how my group and I approach D&D.  We don't wink at the audience.  We shamelessly ignore the pretenses of the imaginary space whenever convenient.

My MegaTraveller campaign was serious business, our characters would by painstakingly played as if they existed in that universe.

But us as the players would not be serious. Lots of laughing & joking.

I can appreciate wonkiness if somebody else DMs, but when I DM, it´s all real for the characters.

That's a good point, player-level fooling around doesn't have to mess with character-level seriousness/verisimiltude. It can though, in my experience, if it gets out of hand.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: MelinglorI can definitely respect the desire for the world to match up with the rules. But personally, I look at it the other way around. I'm dissatisfied with a lot of details of D&D because I find they don't match up with how I'd like a fantasy world to be. It seriously grates on me when, say, the NPCs acknowledge the game setup with lines like "Hello, stranger, I see that you are a new adventurer in town." I just endured a painful sequence in a sessina few weks back where it turned out that a shopkeeper was really a Chaotic Evil Outsider inprisoned in the town, and our Chaotic Evil PC hit him up with lines like, "So, I see that you are of the same. . .persuasion as I am." And then the follow-up party dialogue: "So, Shavi, that shopkeeper is of the same. . .persuasion as you are, isn't he?"

Actually, the whole thing was kinda funny if appreciated in a certain context, but impossible to take seriously. And that brings me to the real crux for me, I guess. There's a certain baseline in a fantasy RPG that I require to take the story seriously. A game with hex-geography, or "basic" and "expert" references, might be enjoyable as a humorous game, but would likely wreck things for me if I wanted to take things seriously.

Ditto.

You know, one can switch from dead-serious drama to humour in the same game.

At least, I can. A lesser, mortal, GM might not manage to make it work.

RPGPundit

Well, I'm just saying that people like all sorts of things. If you like that kind of rapid switching, cool. I like that in some forms and not in others. It has nothing whatsoever with GM-dicks or the waving thereof.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: RPGPunditYou know, one can switch from dead-serious drama to humour in the same game.

At least, I can. A lesser, mortal, GM might not manage to make it work.

RPGPundit

There's an article somewhere about RPGs as gesture narrative.  The author mentions that good RPG sessions should be like Hong Kong movies of the 70s and 80s, alternating btween high drama, asskicking action and comedy all in one scene.

He also says you can'h have a commercially successful RPG that won't let you play a ninja.  I'll try to post a link sometime soon, it's a good article.

Found it

It's a "See Page XX" column, written by Robin Laws.

QuoteYou know, one can switch from dead-serious drama to humour in the same game.

Well that´s correct. But right now I´m not sure we are talking humour vs. serious or "Rules intrusion into the Fantastoverse" vs. "People in the Fantastoverse take themselves seriously".

You know, if a starship captain cought in red tape would have said: "What kinda fucker rolled up that law level!", that just wouldn´t add to my Traveller experience.
It wouldn´t destroy it, but you seem to see it as something positive.
OTOH, I´m totally with you if it´s about the writer of the book taking himself and his creation serious. An ironic break is very good for this stuff.
Like the Orcs of Thar, or Ierendi GAZ. Pure gold.

Quote from: joewolz"http://http://www.dyingearth.com/pagexxjanuary2005.htm" Found it[/URL]

It's a "See Page XX" column, written by Robin Laws.

Too many https.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo, what about you? Do you prefer a D&D setting that recognizes D&D's particular memes as part of the setting, or want one that does nothing of the sort?

I prefer lame cardboard settings (Mystara, old FR/Greyhawk) for D&D and use rich settings with other games.

I appreciate the D&D memes in my settings when I play that game.