What are your best ideas to improve a mecha (or other giant robot) campaign?
AKA, how do you suggest dealing with and/or enhancing...
PCs in a military hierarchy where they are the robojocks?
PCs who are not robojocks in scenes / encounters / events with the mecha?
Storylines / Plot hooks for mecha campaigns?
Genre mixing with mecha campaigns?
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs in a military hierarchy where they are the robojocks?
I'd improve by not doing it. If I had to do the military theme, I'd make them Judge Advocate, rescue, mechanics, SeaBees, or something like that to give a reason for some of the non-fighting missions. (See below.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs who are not robojocks in scenes / encounters / events with the mecha?
For combat, I handle this by making magic effect at mecha scale. Or if not magic super powers, gadgets, psionics, or whatever. (I have humanoid and mecha scales in my game.) Regular sidearms are not effective against mecha. But mecha scale weapons are available. This makes sure everyone can play.
For non-combat, see below.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132Storylines / Plot hooks for mecha campaigns?
I prefer mysteries, rescue missions, and dungeon crawls, that just happen to include some mecha. Think Kidou Keisatsu Patlabor (half police procedural and half something else, even ghost stories) crossed with the Classic Traveller modules that had rescue missions, mysteries, and all sorts of different missions.
That way there is always something for everyone to do, with and without mecha.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132Genre mixing with mecha campaigns?
Sometimes.
YMMV.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132What are your best ideas to improve a mecha (or other giant robot) campaign?
AKA, how do you suggest dealing with and/or enhancing...
Drumroll please.....
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs in a military hierarchy where they are the robojocks?
Always a good standby, but instead of military - make them a sports team playing football or soccer with mecha!
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs who are not robojocks in scenes / encounters / events with the mecha?
Mecha cheerleaders, sports agents, sports promoters, broadcasters, every sports stereotype coupled with mecha.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132Storylines / Plot hooks for mecha campaigns?
Win the pennant! Blatantly rip off Bad News Bears, Major League, and Hoosiers plots!
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132Genre mixing with mecha campaigns?
Sports mecha league!
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs who are not robojocks in scenes / encounters / events with the mecha?
I'd personally shrug and tell them to play a robojock. Not every campaign needs to bend over backwards for every character concept, especially when the theme is as all-consuming as giant complex robots battling each other under the supervision of militaristic hierarchies. I wouldn't bother with PC hangar mechanics or PC control room commanders for the same reason most D&D campaigns don't bother with PC farmers or PC elderly emperors.
You're not actually trying to put together a mecha TV show, just a team game that emulates the most team-gameable moments of that genre.
Warning! Hoary cliches ahead!
At a school for the gifted, all students are required to play a tactical sim called Heavy Armor Recon Mechanics. The most talented receive a fully-immersive cortical interface. For the elite players, however, the game is becoming a bit too real...
Unrest on the Jovian moons! Reports of military action, but the media blackout is ironclad. Intrepid reporters and activists engage in very risky next-level hacking techniques to psychically manifest themselves within the complex mecha networks in order to observe the action. Military AI is a bitch, though...
Vast underground networks discovered on Callisto, remnants of a lost civiization... of giant humanoids?
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs in a military hierarchy where they are the robojocks?
Rather than making them party of the military proper, I would make them part of a private military provider like Strategic Military Services from Macross Frontier. That way there is some hierarchy bu also some degree of autonomy that a regular military unit wouldn't have. It also makes thing like anime hair and the main character getting away with shenanigans more plausible.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs who are not robojocks in scenes / encounters / events with the mecha?
I would probably go one of two ways. In the first, all PCs would be pilots and all the other characters would be NPCs. In the second, some of the PCs would be part of a second group with some defined function during battles that complements what the mecha pilots are doing. They would be an active part of the battle even though they aren't pilots. An example that comes to mind is Walkure in Macross Delta.
[video=youtube;nbMH-vbM3P8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbMH-vbM3P8[/youtube]
They have a defined role in combat. Those guys with the lines on their faces have fallen under mind control and the performance can snap them out of it. Walkure is an idol band but they are right there on the front lines of the fight. It's a little silly in a very Macross sort of way but it's a device for getting people who aren't mecha pilots into the battle as active participants.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132What are your best ideas to improve a mecha (or other giant robot) campaign?
I was under the impression that they were fine. What is YOUR problem with them (and I'm asking for your reasons, not that you're wrong or anything)?
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132AKA, how do you suggest dealing with and/or enhancing...
PCs in a military hierarchy where they are the robojocks?
What do you mean by 'dealing'? Most players I've had in my Mekton games were all Mechajocks and were happy with being given missions. The few times they went 'renegade' were in setting and they came up with great reasons. Like the one time, they decided and gave me a DAMN good reason, that their higher ups were corrupt. (I never intended with their bosses being evil, I was trying for a morally grey sorta campaign, but my players 'deduced' that they were being used to cover up or otherwise do bad things that even the most jaded of observers would say, "Hey, that ain't right." So I went with it, and had a blast.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132PCs who are not robojocks in scenes / encounters / events with the mecha?
OK, I have no answer to this one, but I have to ask, have you ever had that sort of situation come up? Because when I pitch a game, I'm always making sure that my players know what I want. And if someone wants to play something against the grain, I ask 'why?' So far, I've never had any sort of conflict in that regard.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132Storylines / Plot hooks for mecha campaigns?
I steal from modern action movies, mecha anime and other sources with giant robots. Hell, I have players who want to play in a Pacific Rim style game (but sadly, are averse to Mekton Z rules, because they want to make their mecha.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;927132Genre mixing with mecha campaigns?
Pacific Rim, the Movie does that, it's not that hard, see Jeff's idea below.
Quote from: jeff37923;927161Drumroll please.....
- Always a good standby, but instead of military - make them a sports team playing football or soccer with mecha!
- Mecha cheerleaders, sports agents, sports promoters, broadcasters, every sports stereotype coupled with mecha.
- Win the pennant! Blatantly rip off Bad News Bears, Major League, and Hoosiers plots!
Sports mecha league!
Which is effectively the premise Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear Arena, a minis game I've used with hand made Pogs to a great, but sadly short lived, effect.
Ignoring the obvious anime giant mecha/school children tropes, I'd personally recommend checking out the Front Mission series. It is an oft-overlooked RPG from Squaresoft's history in the '90s. It is a tactical RPG replete with political uncertainty and many different shades of grey, with no clear indicator of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. Think of the breakup of former Yugoslavia, projected into the theater of a near-future Earth. Front Mission - specially Front Mission 2 - is story of ethnocentrism and geo-political struggle. Absolutely fantastic stuff: http://frontmission.wikia.com/wiki/Front_Mission_2
Military mecha? Or super-robot?
Western mecha? Or Japanese mecha?
Crucial differences. Vast spectrum.
The mecha genre, whether it is at the harder military-robot or softer super-robot ends of the spectrum, is at its core an expression of magical realism. Mecha do not work unless you accept a certain amount of magic within an otherwise rational setting. The military-robot end may tone down the magic in favor of rationality, but it is always there.
There are two kinds of magic in the mecha genre:
1) The first kind of magic in the mecha genre is the technological handwavium that allows for giant bipedal robots to actually work. You can make up all sorts of techno-babble justifications like synchronization and AMBAC to try and justify 50 ft. tall anthroform vehicles in a believable manner, but sooner or later you are going to have to deal with the fact that the entire premise of the genre is implausable. You are going to collide with square-cubed law and high centers of gravity. You will wrestle with the tactical disadvantages of a machine that towers above the horizon, has a high surface area to mass ratio, and has an absurd number of structural weak points in every single point of articulation. Ultimately, you are just going to have to accept the fact that giant robots are magical.
2) The second kind of magic in the mecha genre comes from within; emotions and "fighting spirit" are magical. Characters in the mecha genre can jump start engines, replenish ammunition, and push their machines far beyond rational limitations through force of will. You can destroy starships with super-charged hyper-beams simply by shouting really loud. You can bring alien fleets to their knees through the power of music.
A mecha is more than just a machine. It is an extension of the pilot. The mecha's form is the image of the pilot's true inner self. The mecha's power is driven by the pilot's motivation. The mecha is the pilot's other half.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;927201I steal from modern action movies, mecha anime and other sources with giant robots. Hell, I have players who want to play in a Pacific Rim style game (but sadly, are averse to Mekton Z rules, because they want to make their mecha.)
The mech construction rules are in the Mekton Zeta Plus sourcebook.
Quote from: yosemitemike;927213The mech construction rules are in the Mekton Zeta Plus sourcebook.
There are generic versions of the mecha construction rules, roadstriker construction rules, and spacecraft construction rules in the main Mezton Zeta rulebook.
Quote from: jeff37923;927219There are generic versions of the mecha construction rules, roadstriker construction rules, and spacecraft construction rules in the main Mezton Zeta rulebook.
I forgot about that version because I never used it but yeah it's there.
Quote from: yosemitemike;927213The mech construction rules are in the Mekton Zeta Plus sourcebook.
When I said Mekton Z I meant all the source book, including the Z+ book. I love making mechs, so I got (and still have on PDF) the two core (Or rather Zeta and Zeta Plus) books on my iPad. It's just that they think the system is overly math intensive, and haven't clued into that I would make their vehicles to their specifications. The fact that you can get fractions of a point is still mind boggling to them.
Quote from: Cave Bear;927210There are two kinds of magic in the mecha genre:
1) The first kind of magic in the mecha genre is the technological handwavium that allows for giant bipedal robots to actually work. You can make up all sorts of techno-babble justifications like synchronization and AMBAC to try and justify 50 ft. tall anthroform vehicles in a believable manner, but sooner or later you are going to have to deal with the fact that the entire premise of the genre is implausable.
It does amuse me that Char Aznable deconstructs this whole trope in the very first Gundam series:
"Your new mech, sir!"
"It has no legs."
"It's a space mech. The legs are just for show anyways."
Quote from: daniel_ream;927305It does amuse me that Char Aznable deconstructs this whole trope in the very first Gundam series:
"Your new mech, sir!"
"It has no legs."
"It's a space mech. The legs are just for show anyways."
I love early Gundam.
I like the fact that the non-anthroform Mobile Armors are awesome and stomp the snot out of everyone that isn't a protagonist.
Thank you everyone!!
Lots of great ideas in this thread! Keep it rolling!
Quote from: jeff37923;927161Sports mecha league!
Very interesting!!
Has anyone done this?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;927201I was under the impression that they were fine. What is YOUR problem with them (and I'm asking for your reasons, not that you're wrong or anything)?
I want to see mecha campaigns improved for the same reason I want to see any genre campaign improved. More added fun, less hiccups.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;927201What do you mean by 'dealing'? Most players I've had in my Mekton games were all Mechajocks and were happy with being given missions.
I've had no issues when the PCs are all robojocks. The challenge has been with mixed parties. My solution was everyone had 2 PCs - a robojock and a non-robojock. That worked great.
The challenge has shown up more in Rifts Chaos Earth where you have one PC with a Giant Robot in a party. In a battle, the stuff that requires a giant robot is the stuff that can chew up dudes walking around. Usually the PCs are smart about these fights, but I've seen players mope about their PC not being able to dish it out equally, but I remind them that their PC shines in other areas. However, this doesn't work for all players. I always wonder if the Great Forum Combo Brain has some better ideas.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;927201Hell, I have players who want to play in a Pacific Rim style game (but sadly, are averse to Mekton Z rules, because they want to make their mecha.)
For years, I used Robot Warriors by the Hero System. It's from the mid-80s, but it allowed me to mix Champions & Fantasy Hero & Robots easily and Robot Warrior rules were stupid easy for players to build custom mechs.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/61459/Robot-Warriors
Quote from: Cave Bear;927210Ultimately, you are just going to have to accept the fact that giant robots are magical.
100% agreed. But most genres are based on magic (space opera, superheroes, etc).
Quote from: Cave Bear;927210A mecha is more than just a machine. It is an extension of the pilot. The mecha's form is the image of the pilot's true inner self. The mecha's power is driven by the pilot's motivation. The mecha is the pilot's other half.
THIS is a great idea. I'd like to see a mecha game use this concept.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927510THIS is a great idea. I'd like to see a mecha game use this concept.
Well, what you want is a game where charisma and willpower stats matter a lot. You may even want to use relationship mechanics. You don't have to play a Story Game to do this. A lot of Japanese roleplaying games like Tenra War already handle this really well without exactly conforming to the Western idea of Story Games (but then they don't exactly conform to Western ideas of OSR either; Japanese games are their own special thing.)
Do the ship-girls from Kantai Collection count as mecha?
Check out the Kancolle RPG. There are fan translations floating around.
https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4040700775
Quote from: Cave Bear;927210A mecha is more than just a machine. It is an extension of the pilot. The mecha's form is the image of the pilot's true inner self. The mecha's power is driven by the pilot's motivation. The mecha is the pilot's other half.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927510THIS is a great idea. I'd like to see a mecha game use this concept.
Mecha and their pilots as Greek Gods with the non-pilots as a Greek Chorus? All of the power of a demigod driven with all the frailty of a human?
A big advantage to putting weight on fighting spirit and relationships in a mecha game is that it gives non-robojock player characters a way to contribute meaningfully (even if it's in more of a support role than a front-line role.) Your pop idols singing in the background function a lot like spell-casters with effects that bolster allies and stun/confuse enemies.
Quote from: Spinachcat;927510Very interesting!!
Has anyone done this?
There is something a little like this in Gundam Build Fighters. It's essentially a sports anime. They use Gundam models made by the competitors which are scanned to produce digital versions that players fight with in a digital environment. Angelic Layer with Gundams. Toppu o Nerae!/Aim for the Top!/Gunbuster also added some sports elements. They even called the guy in charge of the Gunbuster program Coach. It's hard to describe Toppu o Nerae! without making it sound inane. It's better if you watch it. It's only 6 episodes long.
Quote from: Cave Bear;927530Your pop idols singing in the background function a lot like spell-casters with effects that bolster allies and stun/confuse enemies.
They throw on some science-y sounding jargon about fold waves and the Protoculture but that's what Walkure really is. I think it's a way to get the inevitable idol singer character more directly into the action.
Quote from: jeff37923;927527Mecha and their pilots as Greek Gods with the non-pilots as a Greek Chorus? All of the power of a demigod driven with all the frailty of a human?
Heroic Age takes a lot from Greek mythology and does something like this with the Nosodes.
I think one of the main things is not to make it all about mecha. Or even primarily about Mecha. The Robotech RPG is actually great at this, because it details a whole post-apocalyptic world, and it works out even better if the campaign is more about the characters, politics, the military, exploring, etc. than just "we're in giant robots".
Quote from: RPGPundit;928290I think one of the main things is not to make it all about mecha. Or even primarily about Mecha. The Robotech RPG is actually great at this, because it details a whole post-apocalyptic world, and it works out even better if the campaign is more about the characters, politics, the military, exploring, etc. than just "we're in giant robots".
Good advice. I figured this was already a given, which means it probably needs to be specifically stated. That's what I liked about Patlabor--the series had the mecha in it, but the stories are about the police drama or the individuals making up the Second Section.
Quote from: Tod13;928308Good advice. I figured this was already a given, which means it probably needs to be specifically stated. That's what I liked about Patlabor--the series had the mecha in it, but the stories are about the police drama or the individuals making up the Second Section.
As someone who grew up watching anime, and several mecha based series, I have to agree, all the 'good' series have always been about the people first, the giant machines are just means to an end.
I don't think I have ever seen a mecha show that was actually about the mecha. They are mostly coming of age stories with a large pinch of The Horrors of War in real robot shows.
Quote from: yosemitemike;928496I don't think I have ever seen a mecha show that was actually about the mecha. They are mostly coming of age stories with a large pinch of The Horrors of War in real robot shows.
Maybe
Neon Genesis Evangelion? Unit 01 was inhabited by the spirit of Shinji's mom.
Maybe?
The Iron Giant? The robot was a character as well.
Quote from: jeff37923;928498Maybe Neon Genesis Evangelion? Unit 01 was inhabited by the spirit of Shinji's mom.
Maybe?
The Iron Giant? The robot was a character as well.
Evangelion is debateable. The focus is still on Shinji's coming of age. That was only significant as it impacted Shinji.
The Iron Giant is an American movie based on a story by a British author. It's only anime in the very loose sense that anime is used as a generic term for animation in Japan.
Quote from: yosemitemike;928500Evangelion is debateable. The focus is still on Shinji's coming of age. That was only significant as it impacted Shinji.
The first run, was actually the director's self-therapy put on celluloid that jump the shark to the point that the last few episodes made no sense, that required two films to 'correct'. Rumour holds that the original series was meant for 40 episodes, but the merchandising went down hill before they could get past episode 20, and had to wrap it up.
FOR ME: It had promise until episode 6, where it took a nose dive into Emo for the rest of the series.
Shinji is the director's self-insertion character.
Quote from: yosemitemike;928530Shinji is the director's self-insertion character.
No denying that.
CRITTER-TEK (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Critter-TEK) is a humorous, sports themed take on the Battletech universe.
Quote from: yosemitemike;928530Shinji is the director's self-insertion character.
I've met Anno-san and he didn't strike me as being as messed up and worthless as Shinji. (The panel was on Nadia, so questions were about that, not Evangelion.)
ETA: Opinions may be biased by me not liking Evangelion. :D
Quote from: Tod13;928982I've met Anno-san and he didn't strike me as being as messed up and worthless as Shinji. (The panel was on Nadia, so questions were about that, not Evangelion.)
ETA: Opinions may be biased by me not liking Evangelion. :D
He was going through serious depression at the time but that was over 20 years ago.
Quote from: jeff37923;928498Maybe Neon Genesis Evangelion? Unit 01 was inhabited by the spirit of Shinji's mom.
O_o
Boy, was I not paying close enough attention to that show.
Quote from: yosemitemikeI don't think I have ever seen a mecha show that was actually about the mecha.
What would that look like, though? I mean, I've never seen a WWII movie that was about the tanks. Tank crews, sure, but not the tanks. I'm assuming we're excluding documentaries here.
Quote from: daniel_ream;929008What would that look like, though? I mean, I've never seen a WWII movie that was about the tanks. Tank crews, sure, but not the tanks. I'm assuming we're excluding documentaries here.
Transformers.
(The old cartoon, not Bayformers.)
Quote from: yosemitemike;928989He was going through serious depression at the time but that was over 20 years ago.
Cool! Thanks!
The boring, individual-devaluing state of modern warfare really flattens my ability to enjoy mecha as a game genre these days. I already have to suspend a lot of disbelief to get around the giant robot physics thing, it's tough to then also ignore how modern battles between large pieces of equipment (like ships) actually play out.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929066The boring, individual-devaluing state of modern warfare really flattens my ability to enjoy mecha as a game genre these days. I already have to suspend a lot of disbelief to get around the giant robot physics thing, it's tough to then also ignore how modern battles between large pieces of equipment (like ships) actually play out.
Again, magic. At least with Japanese mecha. The robots are intended to resemble knights in shining armour specifically to distance the genre from the 'boring, individual-devaluing state of modern warfare'.