Hello folks,

Before I present you with the results, I thought I'd go over some of the thinking behind the rules I set up.

I specifically asked people to cite games they have had experiences with for a reason: it's a lot easier to criticise a game you've never played than it is to praise it. I think it is fair to assume that most people's picks on their "best game" lists are games which they have either played and enjoyed, or would definitely play if they had an opportunity. I specifically wanted to avoid a situation where people voted for games they weren't interested in, hadn't read, and/or hadn't even played, because that would be just too easy: Hybrid, RaHoWa and FATAL would win outright, how boring!

That said, nobody's votes were discounted on the basis of me saying "Nah, they've never played or read any of these". I even included the Pundit's vote, even though I sincerely doubt he's played the Shab-al-Hiri Roach, because I know he makes a practice of reading games before he criticises them. If I didn't count your vote, it was because you didn't put the games into ranks.

As far as games with multiple editions go... if the original spreadsheet specified more than one edition for a game, I went along with that, but otherwise I tried not to split games up unless a) one edition of a game was obviously different from another and b) people voted a lot for a particular edition of a game. That said, most people only gave edition-specific votes for games already on the spreadsheet, so that didn't turn out to be too much of a problem.

When people didn't specify which version of GURPS they were voting for, I put the votes under GURPS 3rd Edition Revised, for three reasons:

- Most of the time, when people specified an edition they specified that one.

- By virtue of having been around for much longer than 4th edition (and, if I remember right, the first 2 editions), 3rd edition GURPS seems to be the game that most people have had experiences with.

- The problems people cite with GURPS seem to be most prevailant in 3rd Edition.

When people gave a generic vote for "D&D, any edition", I stuck the vote against D&D 3.X, simply because it's the current version of the game. If you didn't mean D&D 3.X or GURPS 3rd Edition revised... you should have specified an edition when you voted.

I regarded AD&D 2e Player's Option as being a separate game, since several people (including me) voted specifically for that independently of AD&D 2e.

I have retained the revisions that joewolz made to the spreadsheet based on the discussion in the "Top 10" results thread, so Rules Cyclopedia D&D and Basic/Expert D&D are regarded as the same game - while nobody voted for those guys, this will become relevant...

Okay, here we go... the countdown! Based solely on votes in the "Bottom 10 RPGs" thread, with scoring as explained at the beginning (10 points for #1 worst game, 1 for #10, 0.5 for "dishonourable mentions")...

First off, the dishonourable mentions - games which nearly got into the Bottom 10, but saved themselves - we have Weapons of the Gods, Powers and Perils, and FATAL, which I suppose you could call the Swiney, the Crunchy and the Ugly. Powers and Perils and FATAL both got 20 points because 2 people really, really hated each of them, whereas Weapons of the Gods actually got its 20 points from 3 votes. By contrast, all of the games in the bottom 10 received at least 3 votes each, and the bottom 2 got 9 each - very diverse voting this time around, although there were much less votes overall than in the Best Game thread.

So, the Bottom 10:

In joint 10th place with 21 points each we have Rolemaster and Sorcerer, which I suppose represent two very different gaming extremes.
In 9th place we have Werewolf: the Apocalypse, with 22 points.
In 8th place the Hero System comes in, with 23 points.
Earning 26 points, in the 7th place is Dogs In the Vineyard.
Shadowrun 3rd Edition made 6th place with 29 points.
5th place goes to Star Wards d20, with 39 points.
In joint 3rd place is Palladium's Rifts and AD&D 2e, with 55 points each.
D&D 3.X got the 2nd place with 56 points.
And lastly, GURPS 3rd Edition Revised got stiffed, with 59 points.

(Note how the point scores shoot up once you get past Shadowrun).

The summary:

BOTTOM 10 GAMES OF THERPGSITE (Based on Bottom 10 Games scores)
1: GURPS - 3rd Edition Revised
2: D&D 3.x
3: AD&D 2e/Rifts (Palladium)
5: Star Wars d20
6: Shadowrun 3rd Edition
7: Dogs in the Vineyard
8: Hero System
9: Werewolf: The Apocalypse
10: Rolemaster/Sorcerer
Dishonourable mentions: FATAL, Powers and Perils, Weapons of the Gods.

However, I'm not satisfied with this: I don't think it is especially fair to consider the Worst Game votes without taking the Best Game votes into account - after all, many people love D&D 3.X and Rifts and it would be wrong not to take that into account.

So, I decided to make the Worst Game scores negative, take the Best Game scores as positive, and add the two together, giving not only a revised Worst Game chart but also a revised Best Game chart!

Here is the rundown of the revised Worst Game scores:

Dishonourable mentions go to Sorcerer and Bureau 13, with -11 points each.

In 10th place, the Fuzion system has -13 points.
In joint 8th place, Living Steel and AD&D 2e Player's Option both have -14 points.
Immortal: the Invisible War weighs in at 7th place with -16 points.
Aftermath is in 6th place with -18 points.
Joint 4th place goes to FATAL and Powers and Perils, which each had -20 points. Not many people have experienced them, but those who have obviously regret it forever...
3rd place goes to Palladium's Rifts, with -25 points. Rifts only scored a puny 30 points in the "Best Game" poll, unlike the massive 161 and 144 points earned by Call of Cthulhu and D&D 3.X. Sorry Rifts fans, them's the breaks...
2nd place goes to Star Wars d20, in which the main complaint seems to be a total mismatch of setting atmosphere and system mechanics. It got -35 points overall.
And in 1st place... is AD&D 2e, with -46 points. When people were picking their favourites, it only earned 9 points. Ignoring Player's Option (which was a 2e innovation, after all), the only other version of D&D which earned an overall negative score was AD&D 1e, which got -8 points (10 points in the Best Game thread, but 18 in the Worst Game vote).

To summarise:

BOTTOM 10 GAMES OF THERPGSITE (Based on Best Game Score - Worst Game Score)
1: AD&D 2e
2: Star Wars d20
3: Rifts (Palladium)
4: FATAL/Powers and Perils
6: Aftermath
7: Immortal: the Invisible War
8: AD&D 2e Player's Option/Living Steel
10: Fuzion
Dishonourable mentions: Sorcerer, Bureau 13.

What I actually find more interesting is the modified Best Games chart, in which the enthusiasm of the fans is tempered a little by other peoples' bad experiences...

Honourable mentions go to MegaTraveller, with 44 points, and GURPS 4th Edition and Star Wars (wEG), with 43 points each.

10th place goes to Cyberpunk 2020, with 46.5 points.
9th goes to Unknown Armies, with 53.5.
8th place is taken by All Flesh Must Be Eaten, beating Unknown Armies by a rotting nose with 54.5 points.
Earning 59 points, Runequest is in 7th place.
Marvel Superheroes is in 6th place with 62 points. I wonder if it would have done so well if not for the current FASERIP revival?
5th place is Classic Traveller with 73 points.
D&D 3.X is 4th place, with 86.5 points - although it got a lot of negative votes, they only dragged it down 1 place.
WFRP is number 3 with 93.5 points.
With 142 points, Call of Cthulhu drops to 2nd place thanks to a couple of naysayers.
And this leaves, with no negative votes against it and a staggering 144 points, winning 1st place in the revised Best Game poll by the skin of its teeth, Rules Cyclopedia/Basic D&D.

Aside from Call of Cthulhu, WFRP, and D&D 3.X, none of the "top 10" games received any negative votes. Star Wars (WEG) could have pushed Cyberpunk out if 1 person hadn't made it their #1 most hated game...

To summarise:

TOP 10 RPGS OF THERPGSITE (Based on Best Game Score - Worst Game Score)
1: Rules Cyclopedia (Basic) D&D
2: Call of Cthulhu
3: WFRP
4: D&D 3.x
5: Classic Traveller
6: Marvel Superheroes
7: Runequest
8: All Flesh Must Be Eaten
9: Unknown Armies
10: Cyberpunk 2020
Honourable Mentions: MegaTraveller, Star Wars (WEG), GURPS 4th Edition

Here's joewolz's final chart, for comparison purposes:

TOP 10 RPGS OF THERPGSITE (Based only on Best Game Scores).
1. Call of Cthulhu
2. Rules Cyclopedia (Basic) D&D
3. D&D 3.x
4. WFRP
5. Classic Traveller
6. GURPS - 3rd Edition Revised
7. Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP)
8. Runequest
9. Hero System
10. All Flesh Must Be Eaten

The Five Runners Up:

11. Unknown Armies
12. Star Wars (WEG)
13. Castles and Crusades
14. Shadowrun 3rd Edition
15. Cyberpunk 2020

What else... someone in the Best Games thread asked what the results would look like solely going on number of votes, in which case the Worst Games chart would look like this:

BOTTOM 10 GAMES OF THERPGSITE (Based on number of Worst Game votes)
1: D&D 3.x/GURPS - 3rd Edition Revised
3: Rifts (Palladium)
4: Star Wars d20/AD&D 2e
6: Shadowrun 3rd Edition
7: Hero System/Burning Wheel/Dogs in the Vineyard/Werewolf: The Apocalypse/Rolemaster/Weapons of the Gods/AD&D 1e/Sorcerer

Like I said: pretty diverse votes we've got going on. Subtracting #of negative votes from #of positive votes, we get as a revised Worst Game table:

BOTTOM 10 RPGS OF THERPGSITE (Based on Best Game Votes - Worst Game Votes)
1: Star Wars d20
2: AD&D 2e
3: Sorcerer/Cyberpunk v3/Dangerous Journeys/Bureau 13/AD&D 2e Player's Option/Living Steel/Immortal: the Invisible War/Aftermath/FATAL/Powers and Perils

And as a revised Best Game table:

TOP 10 RPGS OF THERPGSITE (Based on Best Game Votes - Worst Game Votes)
1: Call of Cthulhu
2: Rules Cyclopedia (Basic) D&D
3: WFRP
4: D&D 3.x
5: Classic Traveller
6: Marvel Superheroes
7: All Flesh Must Be Eaten/Unknown Armies
9: Star Wars (WEG)/Runequest/Cyberpunk 2020/GURPS 4th Edition/Feng Shui/Star Frontiers

And lastly, I thought I'd put together a Most Voted For table, based on the total number of votes, good and bad. These are the games where opinion might be divided, but almost everyone at least has an opinion...

MOST VOTED FOR
1: D&D 3.x
2: Call of Cthulhu
3: GURPS - 3rd Edition Revised
4: Rules Cyclopedia (Basic) D&D/WFRP
6: Classic Traveller/Shadowrun 3rd Edition
8: Rifts (Palladium)
9: Marvel Superheroes/Over The Edge

Intriguing! Thanks for going to all that effort, Warthur. Makes me wish I'd voted in both polls, now!

- Q

Out of curiosity, which version of Runequest is being referenced?  One of the original BRP versions, or the newest version by Mongoose?

Lots pf games I like seem to have gotten lots of votes for worst game, but they pulled it out at the end, when votes were combined.

Quote from: Tom BOut of curiosity, which version of Runequest is being referenced?  One of the original BRP versions, or the newest version by Mongoose?

Nobody voted against Runequest in the Worst Game thread, and joewolz never specified different editions in the Best Game spreadsheet, so it covers all versions.

Quote from: James McMurrayLots pf games I like seem to have gotten lots of votes for worst game, but they pulled it out at the end, when votes were combined.

That was my thinking: it seemed horribly, horribly unfair to put "love-em-or-hate-em" games on a par with "hate-em-or-hate-em-more" games, and combining the scores seemed the best way to weed them out.

Quote from: WarthurThat was my thinking: it seemed horribly, horribly unfair to put "love-em-or-hate-em" games on a par with "hate-em-or-hate-em-more" games, and combining the scores seemed the best way to weed them out.

I don't know about "fair". This is just an open selective sample poll on the internet. I know I didn't get around to voting in the 'top 10' thread before the votes were tallied. But I do think it was very interesting breaking out in those different manners. Thanks.

One crucial distinction that inevitably gets lost is between "This is just tedious" games and "This could have been SO GOOD, if only they had added [your favorite subsystem here], but did they listen to me? NO-HO!" games.

I'm staggered.  I admit, I don't like GURPS 3rd much, but I wouldn't have described at as bad system per se.  Just not to my tastes.  Certainly ot the worst game going around.

That Rifts didn't come out on top (or bottom, whichever way you look at it) was also something of a surprise.

I'm a bit amazed that SWd20 got such a canning. I've actually played it and it wasn't that bad. IMO, of course.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkI'm staggered. I admit, I don't like GURPS 3rd much, but I wouldn't have described at as bad system per se. Just not to my tastes. Certainly ot the worst game going around.

Well, really, that's all it could possibly come down to.  Personally, I have a strong dislike for GURPS...but I recognize that others think it's the greatest system ever.  My own favorite systems (CORPS, EABA) rarely make these lists at all, one way or the other.

I can think of very few systems that I would consider objectively "bad"...most systems work well for someone, after all.

Quote from: droogI'm a bit amazed that SWd20 got such a canning. I've actually played it and it wasn't that bad. IMO, of course.

Perhaps suffering from the inevitable comparisons with d6 Star Wars which is generally very fondly remembered.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkPerhaps suffering from the inevitable comparisons with d6 Star Wars which is generally very fondly remembered.

And the first edition of StarWars d20 was an editing disaster with more errors than one could shake a well-honed Force Spike at.

HERO?

...

...you suckas are dead to me.

If you glance through the Bottom 10 votes thread you'll probably find that most people who voted for Star Wars D20 cite a mismatch between the atmosphere usually associated with Star Wars and the D20 system, and I'm inclined to agree: D20 is just slightly too crunchy to really support the sort of fast, freewheeling combats that Star Wars is known for.

On the other hand, it does have a couple of advantages over D6 Star Wars. A class/level system can model the progression of a Jedi from apprentice to master quite nicely (Luke and Anakin in their respective trilogies both seem to suddenly become more powerful between films, as if they'd levelled up). And I suspect if we did a "Best computer RPG" poll, the D20-based Knights of the Old Republic would rank highly - then again, I do appreciate the D20 system more when a computer is handling the dice rolls for me and providing pretty animation.

As far as GURPS goes, it really doesn't do too badly if you factor the "Best Game" votes into account. Like Rifts, there's people who like it, and people who don't, and ne'er the twain shall meet. Unlike poor Rifts, the people who don't like GURPS don't greatly outnumber the people who like it...