Here's the game: pick a TV show unlikely to be an RPG (so no sci-fi, no fantasy, but legal, historical drama, family drama, cop shows, sitcoms, etc. are allowed). What system would you run it with, with what changes, and why?
Seinfeld: I rework some of the skills and abilities from Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space and throw in a bunch of event and complication tables. Something about the way the game is built around existing characters in a show seems like it would work for this. Kramer would have a different number of story points from Jerry for example.
Black Adder: I would use my own system. The reason is I've thought about doing it for ages and the only thing keeping me from working on it is licensing. But I've been bouncing ideas in my head and think I know how I would tweak the system.
I disagree with cop shows being a legal choice for this thread, as they are pretty easy to 'game'.
In fact, Mini Six already has a neat little writeup for using its rules to run a 70s cop show game:
http://www.antipaladingames.com/p/mini-six.html
I always thought The Lost Room (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Room) + Unknown Armies was a good fit. The Occupant seems very avatarish to me.
"It's always Sunny in Philadelphia"
Use a modified version of of Teenagers from Outer Space...
Replace "Relationship with Parents" with "Relationship with Society" It still determines your starting "Allowance" but also is used when interacting with "Normal" people who are not as Depraved as your "Gang" (So example, the Mcpoyles are considered their own "Gang" and this doesn't apply to them, but when you go to the Bank to take out a loan to fund your home made "Lethal Weapon 7" it's used)
Replace "Bonk" with "Sanity"...Physical harm can reduce Sanity but it rarely happens. Instead you lose Sanity points when your plans are foiled, others emotionally abuse you, or the consequences of your actions catch up with you. Losing all of your Sanity causes your character to flip out and engage in some extreme reaction, and takes them out of play for the scene afterward...but then they bounce back to their full Sanity after the Cathartic melt down and release...
Throw out the Alien Powers, but keep the human ones.
Community with AD&D, duh.
Has anyone here ever read or played SPI's Dallas: The Television Role-Playing Game from 1980? I find it fascinating that the very first licensed RPG wasn't Barsoom, or Middle Earth, Conan, or Star Wars, but a TV soap opera.
Sons of Anarchy using Green Ronin's "A Song of Ice and Fire".
Sons of Anarchy is a re-telling of Hamlet, where everyone dies at the end!
Game of Thrones, is Shakesperian where everyone dies at the end!
These two can go together like Peanut Butter and Chocolate!
Instead of rolling up your House, you're rolling up your Gang as a collection of PC's... It should be easy enough to re-interpret the House roll aspects. An "ancient" gang would mean they originated after World War I, where a recent gang might have been formed from Veterans of the war on Terror!
In a SOIF players also spend points to decide where their characters line up in the House Hierarchy. From being the first born son set to Inherit, to other children within...or taking up a title of Master of Arms for the House, To the House Maester, to a simple house Retainer..
This becomes easily translated to positions within the Gang. Are you the inheritor like Jax? The Power behind the throne like Gemma? The Master of Arms like Tig, The Club's Accountant (Maester) Like Bobby Elvis, a retainer like Chucky or Unser? Or the young Prince's lover Tara?
Just as in Game of Thrones, women in real life criminal organizations have a strange relation. Many women may appear to be "Property" like Cherry, but in reality they might be the ones actually controlling everything like Gemma/Cersei!
ASOIF has a robust and detailed social combat system which relies on Intimidation, Persuasion and Seduction as ways of influencing others and getting them to do what you want... As Game of Thrones is filled with politics.... Just like Sons of Anarchy as inter-gang politics become huge, as well as politics which involve other gangs as well!
And ASOIF encourages every player character to have some great dark secret which can bring about their downfall, just like Sons of Anarchy!
When combat finally does happen, it's a deadly system where Fate Points can be spent in order to save one's life...or where the less Social characters get to finally show off!
CSI: Miami, with the Miami supplement for Millennium's End and A Dirty World for a system, no other changes.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;845400I disagree with cop shows being a legal choice for this thread, as they are pretty easy to 'game'.
In fact, Mini Six already has a neat little writeup for using its rules to run a 70s cop show game:
http://www.antipaladingames.com/p/mini-six.html
Cop shows should in theory be easy to game but no one does them. Also, I think "cops" is an easier genre to game than "tv police crime drama".
Quote from: RPGPundit;845691Cop shows should in theory be easy to game but no one does them. Also, I think "cops" is an easier genre to game than "tv police crime drama".
I suppose it depends on what one means by cop show. If we're talking late night procedural drama, in my experience they are difficult because law is complicated and they demand a bit more fidelity to the legal system than something like Die Hard or Rush Hour. It can also be a challenge to GM anything that is modern detective where the players have access to resources like crime labs, forensics, etc. It is a lot of fun if you put the work in before hand but I think a lot of GMs are at a bit of a loss when they first approach it.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845708It can also be a challenge to GM anything that is modern detective where the players have access to resources like crime labs, forensics, etc. It is a lot of fun if you put the work in before hand but I think a lot of GMs are at a bit of a loss when they first approach it.
The big thing here is to take a page from reality. In RL Forensics is nowhere near as accurate as tv portrays it...not to mention most cities actually don't have the resources to do every kind of test...so have to send them to other cities for specific tests....also results take weeks to months to get, not hours and days...
Quote from: Orphan81;845709The big thing here is to take a page from reality. In RL Forensics is nowhere near as accurate as tv portrays it...not to mention most cities actually don't have the resources to do every kind of test...so have to send them to other cities for specific tests....also results take weeks to months to get, not hours and days...
The realism is what makes the genre so challenging for GMs. When I was doing Terror Network campaigns with FBI characters I used the FBI forensics handbook, which was very useful but it is all very different from how most GMs are accustomed to managing those sorts of details. Also, at least in the case of the FBI, the agents themselves are not usually gathering forensic evidence, they have forensic teams they can bring in to handle that stuff. The more I learned about how the FBI operated, the easier it got. But as a person with zero background in law and enforcement, it was enormously difficult initially despite watching these kinds of shows my whole life (because the shows spoon feed you the legal stuff, you don't need to know it to enjoy them).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845711(because the shows spoon feed you the legal stuff, you don't need to know it to enjoy them).
Could you elaborate on this? Because my first (probably stupid) reaction was, "Well can't the GM and the campaign assumptions spoon feed the legal stuff to the players in a similar way, so that they don't need to know it to enjoy the game?"
I mean, heraldry, selling treasure and alchemy were all complicated affairs in real life, but we gloss through and around them all the time in tabletop RPGs.
The Dangerous Journeys mini-campaign I ran around 92 was set in the town of Landfjord, based on Roseanne's Lanford, Illinois, complete with analogous NPCs (or is that Non-HPs? I forget Mythus' silly renamings) and locations from that show.
I'd use Cypher System now, simply because "DJ Conner, level 2, level 4 to avoid pummeling, level 1 when stealing a car" works for me.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;845719Could you elaborate on this? Because my first (probably stupid) reaction was, "Well can't the GM and the campaign assumptions spoon feed the legal stuff to the players in a similar way, so that they don't need to know it to enjoy the game?"
What I meant was you could be a fan of procedurals your whole life and still not know how to run a procedural campaign. It isn't about the players, it is about the GM. I just found it intimidating to learn all the legal stuff when I first started running these kinds of adventures. Gaining the information and then understanding what that info meant on the ground was a long process. Others may have different experience here. My knowledge gained from watching procedurals didn't translate into knowledge I could use in the game as well as I thought it might, so it took a lot of extra effort to get to a point where I felt comfortable.
QuoteI mean, heraldry, selling treasure and alchemy were all complicated affairs in real life, but we gloss through and around them all the time in tabletop RPGs.
This is probably pretty subjective and individual, but I found dealing with issues of modern law, firearms, etc a lot harder to pickup than historical stuff. Some of it was a lack of good information. I know where to get good sources on commerce in the ancient world or law in early imperial Rome, but I was less confident finding good sources on police work, law, etc. Like I said, I eventually got to a place where I was comfortable running it and even writing a book. But it was one of those genres where I really had to identify how much I didn't know before I could proceed. For me I just found it a lot harder than work on my fantasy campaigns, ancient history campaigns or things like Cthulu.
Mama's Family! For a system, it'd have to be as unfun and mindnumbing as the show.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/mamasfamily/images/4/45/Tumblr_ltu2xwR3en1qd2qxpo1_1280.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130228151014)
Gilmore Girls.
Would work wonders for a market that might not play a lot of RPGs.
Roll a critical failure, you have an encounter with Kirk.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845723This is probably pretty subjective and individual, but I found dealing with issues of modern law, firearms, etc a lot harder to pickup than historical stuff. Some of it was a lack of good information. I know where to get good sources on commerce in the ancient world or law in early imperial Rome, but I was less confident finding good sources on police work, law, etc.
There are a lot of books published for would be mystery writers that provide a sketch of the law, police/FBI procedures, forensics, what poisons do, firearms, etc. (One source is Writer's Digest.) Those would probably be a useful resource. Did you end up using any of those to get yourself up to speed, Brendan?
Quote from: Orphan81;845501Sons of Anarchy using Green Ronin's "A Song of Ice and Fire".
Sons of Anarchy is a re-telling of Hamlet, where everyone dies at the end!
Game of Thrones, is Shakesperian where everyone dies at the end!
These two can go together like Peanut Butter and Chocolate!
Instead of rolling up your House, you're rolling up your Gang as a collection of PC's... It should be easy enough to re-interpret the House roll aspects. An "ancient" gang would mean they originated after World War I, where a recent gang might have been formed from Veterans of the war on Terror!
Like I've said before, gangs are simply feudalism writ small. Or to reverse it, feudalism is organized crime with political legitimacy. :)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;845719Could you elaborate on this? Because my first (probably stupid) reaction was, "Well can't the GM and the campaign assumptions spoon feed the legal stuff to the players in a similar way, so that they don't need to know it to enjoy the game?"
I mean, heraldry, selling treasure and alchemy were all complicated affairs in real life, but we gloss through and around them all the time in tabletop RPGs.
I don't think you do actually. Procedurals almost always end in a confession. The investigators are basically whacking away at the suspects "innocence" hit points until they hit zero and confess, try to run away, or start shooting.
L&O is a bit more complicated, but it also usually has some dramatic revelation in court that has the same effect, minus the confession.
Boston Legal is a bit different, since it was essentially a character centered dramedy with legal fluff in the form of a serious and an absurd case that inform that episodes character development/interactions/etc. Actually this is true of the better (IMO) procedurals, which are also character studies in an investigative setting. To pull them off you'd need both systems to model the procedural elements and ones to support the drama/comedy characterization centered roleplaying that's really the main point of the series.
Quote from: Bren;845743There are a lot of books published for would be mystery writers that provide a sketch of the law, police/FBI procedures, forensics, what poisons do, firearms, etc. (One source is Writer's Digest.) Those would probably be a useful resource. Did you end up using any of those to get yourself up to speed, Brendan?
One thing I tried to avoid were breakdowns by other writers or RPG designers, because I felt I should do the heavy lifting myself so that all the errors would be on me. Also I realized a lot of this stuff moved so quickly that one guy's break down from five years ago would potentially be out of date. Since my focus was counter-terrorism, CIA and FBI, I read a lot of handbooks as well as material like the Holden series from Zenith press and reference books on FBI work. I also read a ton of articles and pieced together stuff. Government websites were useful. Text books on intelligence gathering and counter-terrorism were pretty handy too. My sister studied criminal justice, so I ended up borrowing a lot of her books. Ronald Kessler has some good source books too (they have a point of view and are not without their bias, but if you call up the CIA asking for information, they pretty much just direct you to Kessler). I read books by Jonathan White and Bruce Hoffman. I also found that you could contact the press office at the FBI and you can get a tour and talk to an agent about how they do things.
Quote from: RunningLaser;845738Mama's Family! For a system, it'd have to be as unfun and mindnumbing as the show.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/mamasfamily/images/4/45/Tumblr_ltu2xwR3en1qd2qxpo1_1280.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130228151014)
I have spent most of my adult life trying to forget that show existed.
Deadwood - Boot Hill
Rome - OD&D
Band of Brothers - heavily modified Twilight:2000
The Pacific - ditto
Generation:Kill - ditto
Carnivale - Very low point buy Hero System (like, 65-75 points per character at most)
From the Earth to the Moon - Very, very heavily modified Traveller rules
hmm...
Jersey Shore mixed with Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row. Maybe under a Fantasy Trip like game with special talents and equipment, some special niche rules. Lots of lurid art, of course.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845762One thing I tried to avoid were breakdowns by other writers or RPG designers, because I felt I should do the heavy lifting myself so that all the errors would be on me.
I won't argue with your method, but it does sound like heavy lifting.
The sources for writers are predigested and thus are, to my mind, less work for someone as a starting point for knowledge. Since terrorist methods, technology, and law enforcement preferences and procedures are in flux all the time I'd probably have been a little less concerned with trying to achieve perfect topicality, though the goal is admirable.
Quote from: Bren;845800I won't argue with your method, but it does sound like heavy lifting.
The sources for writers are predigested and thus are, to my mind, less work for someone as a starting point for knowledge. Since terrorist methods, technology, and law enforcement preferences and procedures are in flux all the time I'd probably have been a little less concerned with trying to achieve perfect topicality, though the goal is admirable.
I can certainly see the value in them. I've considered buying them in the past. I think I like doing research enough that I prefer doing the heavy lifting and I am always nervous about using other peoples' (particularly if it isn't footnoted or endnoted). However I think in the case of TN, I probably could have benefited from one or two of these sorts of books. There were some gaps that emerged and proved difficult to fill.
But I also think that only reinforces my initial point, which was these sorts of shows are difficult for your average game master. If you're buying writers digests to deal with these sorts of details, I think that is a sign of one of the many challenges procedurals present. Don't get me wrong, I like running these sorts of games and I have a whole line of products dedicated to FBI investigations. I just acknowledge the perception out there, and the reality behind it, that many GMs are a little intimidated by the genre. It took me about a year of running them to get to the point where I felt as comfortable as I am with medieval fantasy.
My experience trying to sell this sort of game is there is a small group of people who are hungry for gaming material o the subject. But it is a tough sell (both to players and GMs).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845805But I also think that only reinforces my initial point, which was these sorts of shows are difficult for your average game master.
I agree with your point.
Any kind of setting that takes more than a cursory knowledge and disallows frequent hand waving is going to be more difficult to run than the average RPG setting. That's why accurate historical settings and setting rich fantasies like Glorantha and Tekumel are a challenge for a lot of people (both GMs and players), especially for completists who worry about getting any little thing wrong.
It would certainly be a lot less work for me to run some loose pastiche like a movie version of the Three Musketeers or Pirates of the Caribbean instead of the historical setting I am running. But like you, I kind of enjoy the research and I enjoy the detail. I just have to strike a balance between my interest and what works as a game for my players.
Quote from: Bren;845812I agree with your point.
Any kind of setting that takes more than a cursory knowledge and disallows frequent hand waving is going to be more difficult to run than the average RPG setting. That's why accurate historical settings and setting rich fantasies like Glorantha and Tekumel are a challenge for a lot of people (both GMs and players), especially for completists who worry about getting any little thing wrong.
I would certainly agree those are tougher for GMs to run.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;845771Deadwood - Boot Hill
Rome - OD&D
Band of Brothers - heavily modified Twilight:2000
The Pacific - ditto
Generation:Kill - ditto
Carnivale - Very low point buy Hero System (like, 65-75 points per character at most)
From the Earth to the Moon - Very, very heavily modified Traveller rules
hmm...
OT: Because I trust your opinion, what is yours on RECON?
I myself like RECON, and would easily run a "Tour of Duty" game with it.
A-Team, Savage Worlds
Top Secret, The Sandbaggers
AFMBE, Walking Dead (Yeah I know that was a gimme)
To tackle some of the series that have been mentioned:
Rome, The Tudors, Vikings - RQ6 without magic
Deadwood - RQ6 without magic, with firearms rules
Jericho - Mongoose Traveller. Just ignore the SF stuff, keep it all modern-day tech, adapt career tables to modern-day equivalents
The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy, Boardwalk Empire - Savage Worlds with Gritty Damage rules and little or no Bennies
Breaking Bad - Fiasco? I've never played it but from what I've heard, you could see the whole series as an extended "playset"
House of Cards - Tough call. Maybe the PvO-friendly Skulduggery system from Pelgrane might do the trick?
Quote from: The Butcher;845952House of Cards - Tough call. Maybe the PvO-friendly Skulduggery system from Pelgrane might do the trick?
Amber?
I'd want a Midsomer Murders RPG.
With a helluva campaign book :D
Quote from: RPGPundit;846652Amber?
Would probably work quite well for
Community. :)
When I was a kid in the late 70's I read a collection of H.P. Lovecraft short stories that I found lying in a pile of old paperbacks in the corner of a grade school classroom and it blew me away. A few years later at age 14 or so I bought Call of Cthulhu in large part out of overwhelming curiosity as to how the heck you could turn Lovecraft's moody stories into a game. It sounds silly now but at the time the idea that an RPG didn't have to be a dungeon-crawl or a shoot-'em'-up was a real revelation.
What about a Waltons RPG?
Golden Girls: Over 55 and Loving It!
Eating cheesecake provides a bonus to actions.
Quote from: RPGPundit;847082What about a Waltons RPG?
Now that is a curveball.
Quote from: Settembrini;845816OT: Because I trust your opinion, what is yours on RECON?
You know, Sett, I have never played RECON; I have heard next-to-nothing about it.
I can see if I can scrounge up a copy of the rules and give them a through going over and let you know.
Quote from: RPGPundit;847082What about a Waltons RPG?
Something point-buy but very low powered; like, Hero System with 50=60 point builds, no "powers" per se, hard cap of 13-15 on stats, half of your CP pool comes from disads (stuff that's fit like, polio stricken, so move at 1/4th, etc.)
Anyway to continue the trend:
MASH 4077: also heavily modified Twilight:2000 (it is a bit wonky but it actually does military characters and relevant skill systems pretty well)
Miami Vice: Hero System or possibly d20 modern for faster combat resolution
The X-Files/Millennium/The Lone Gunmen: why, Call of Cthulhu of course.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;845461Has anyone here ever read or played SPI's Dallas: The Television Role-Playing Game from 1980? I find it fascinating that the very first licensed RPG wasn't Barsoom, or Middle Earth, Conan, or Star Wars, but a TV soap opera.
Own it. Its a surprisingly good game, actually.
Quote from: TristramEvans;847120Own it. Its a surprisingly good game, actually.
Have/would you run it? :D
Your choice of hospital drama — RQ6, no magic. With medical specialties handled like Combat Styles. And an elaborate subsystem for handling medical care via multiple skill rolls, complete with fumble table.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;847138Have/would you run it? :D
I played but didnt run it years ago. I would run it, tweaked for another setting (the show itself holds no interest for me).
It would actually make for a very good game of 17th century Court intrigues.
The system is very basic, but functions well. Players have 5 stats - Power, Persuasion, Coercion, Seduction, and Investigation, each having two ratings, one for affecting and one for resisting (much like the Dying Earth rpg). There's a 6th stat, Luck, which basically lets players reverse the result of a contest. Things are resolved basically just by comparing stats, rolling off when stats are within a certain range of each other (echoes of FASERIP).
There's no chargen, experience, or combat rules, and each character also gets their own "victory conditions" tied to specific scenarios. Its a quirky game that would no way in hell be made today, though I cant help feel that our hobby is a bit poorer in comparison to the 80s because of that reality.
Quote from: The Butcher;847139Your choice of hospital drama — RQ6, no magic. With medical specialties handled like Combat Styles. And an elaborate subsystem for handling medical care via multiple skill rolls, complete with fumble table.
That's an awesome idea.
Quote from: TristramEvans;847141I played but didnt run it years ago. I would run it, tweaked for another setting (the show itself holds no interest for me).
It would actually make for a very good game of 17th century Court intrigues.
Also awesome, moreover I don't understand why something like this hasn't been done - by wich I mean both a Court intrigue/soap opera RPG, and an actual soap opera esque TV series set in the 17th-18th c. (in Versailles say).
Quote from: The Ent;847142Also awesome, moreover I don't understand why something like this hasn't been done - by wich I mean both a Court intrigue/soap opera RPG, and an actual soap opera esque TV series set in the 17th-18th c. (in Versailles say).
I would like both such things.
Our hobby is still kinda stuck in the idea that every game needs to be focused around combat. Even games where combat shouldnt be the main focus (Call of Cthulhu) still make certain to provide lots of crunchy combat bits.
Quote from: TristramEvans;847143I would like both such things.
Our hobby is still kinda stuck in the idea that every game needs to be focused around combat. Even games where combat shouldnt be the main focus (Call of Cthulhu) still make certain to provide lots of crunchy combat bits.
Very true.
Of course one could make a game like that very much about
social combat. :)
Quote from: The Ent;847142That's an awesome idea.
Also awesome, moreover I don't understand why something like this hasn't been done - by wich I mean both a Court intrigue/soap opera RPG, and an actual soap opera esque TV series set in the 17th-18th c. (in Versailles say).
Smallville the RPG has actually been re-skinned by a lot of folks to play Soap Opera games with. The system is less concerned with people with powers beating one another up, and more concerned with emotional attacks and dealing with them.
It also has one of the most interesting character creation systems I've used for other games. Players go through their character's backgrounds together using a map, and drawing in important locations and NPC's there all connected to and what those relationships are.
A Song of Ice and Fire by Green Ronin also has one of the best social intrigue systems and could easily be reskinned for soap opera dynamics as well. Characters can manipulate others through flattery, persuasion, intimidation, seduction, bribery and other routes...all with different consequences on how that particular character will perceive yours afterward.
Quote from: Orphan81;847167Smallville the RPG has actually been re-skinned by a lot of folks to play Soap Opera games with. The system is less concerned with people with powers beating one another up, and more concerned with emotional attacks and dealing with them.
It also has one of the most interesting character creation systems I've used for other games. Players go through their character's backgrounds together using a map, and drawing in important locations and NPC's there all connected to and what those relationships are.
A Song of Ice and Fire by Green Ronin also has one of the best social intrigue systems and could easily be reskinned for soap opera dynamics as well. Characters can manipulate others through flattery, persuasion, intimidation, seduction, bribery and other routes...all with different consequences on how that particular character will perceive yours afterward.
Cool! :)
I've heard good and bad about Smallville - sounds like really awesome character creation though! :)
No knowledge about the ASoIaF RPG (shame, big fan of the show :o), but it
should be great at this stuff.
I guess Smallville would probably work well for a high-school drama game in general...