Quote from: Shipyard Locked;845719Could you elaborate on this? Because my first (probably stupid) reaction was, "Well can't the GM and the campaign assumptions spoon feed the legal stuff to the players in a similar way, so that they don't need to know it to enjoy the game?"

What I meant was you could be a fan of procedurals your whole life and still not know how to run a procedural campaign. It isn't about the players, it is about the GM. I just found it intimidating to learn all the legal stuff when I first started running these kinds of adventures. Gaining the information and then understanding what that info meant on the ground was a long process. Others may have different experience here. My knowledge gained from watching procedurals didn't translate into knowledge I could use in the game as well as I thought it might, so it took a lot of extra effort to get to a point where I felt comfortable.

QuoteI mean, heraldry, selling treasure and alchemy were all complicated affairs in real life, but we gloss through and around them all the time in tabletop RPGs.

This is probably pretty subjective and individual, but I found dealing with issues of modern law, firearms, etc a lot harder to pickup than historical stuff. Some of it was a lack of good information. I know where to get good sources on commerce in the ancient world or law in early imperial Rome, but I was less confident finding good sources on police work, law, etc. Like I said, I eventually got to a place where I was comfortable running it and even writing a book. But it was one of those genres where I really had to identify how much I didn't know before I could proceed. For me I just found it a lot harder than work on my fantasy campaigns, ancient history campaigns or things like Cthulu.

Mama's Family!  For a system, it'd have to be as unfun and mindnumbing as the show.

Gilmore Girls.

Would work wonders for a market that might not play a lot of RPGs.  

Roll a critical failure, you have an encounter with Kirk.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845723This is probably pretty subjective and individual, but I found dealing with issues of modern law, firearms, etc a lot harder to pickup than historical stuff. Some of it was a lack of good information. I know where to get good sources on commerce in the ancient world or law in early imperial Rome, but I was less confident finding good sources on police work, law, etc.

There are a lot of books published for would be mystery writers that provide a sketch of the law, police/FBI procedures, forensics, what poisons do, firearms, etc. (One source is Writer's Digest.) Those would probably be a useful resource. Did you end up using any of those to get yourself up to speed, Brendan?

Quote from: Orphan81;845501Sons of Anarchy using Green Ronin's "A Song of Ice and Fire".

Sons of Anarchy is a re-telling of Hamlet, where everyone dies at the end!

Game of Thrones, is Shakesperian where everyone dies at the end!

These two can go together like Peanut Butter and Chocolate!

Instead of rolling up your House, you're rolling up your Gang as a collection of PC's... It should be easy enough to re-interpret the House roll aspects. An "ancient" gang would mean they originated after World War I, where a recent gang might have been formed from Veterans of the war on Terror!

Like I've said before, gangs are simply feudalism writ small. Or to reverse it, feudalism is organized crime with political legitimacy.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;845719Could you elaborate on this? Because my first (probably stupid) reaction was, "Well can't the GM and the campaign assumptions spoon feed the legal stuff to the players in a similar way, so that they don't need to know it to enjoy the game?"

I mean, heraldry, selling treasure and alchemy were all complicated affairs in real life, but we gloss through and around them all the time in tabletop RPGs.

I don't think you do actually. Procedurals almost always end in a confession. The investigators are basically whacking away at the suspects "innocence" hit points until they hit zero and confess, try to run away, or start shooting.

L&O is a bit more complicated, but it also usually has some dramatic revelation in court that has the same effect, minus the confession.

Boston Legal is a bit different, since it was essentially a character centered dramedy with legal fluff in the form of a serious and an absurd case that inform that episodes character development/interactions/etc. Actually this is true of the better (IMO) procedurals, which are also character studies in an investigative setting. To pull them off you'd need both systems to model the procedural elements and ones to support the drama/comedy characterization centered roleplaying that's really the main point of the series.

Quote from: Bren;845743There are a lot of books published for would be mystery writers that provide a sketch of the law, police/FBI procedures, forensics, what poisons do, firearms, etc. (One source is Writer's Digest.) Those would probably be a useful resource. Did you end up using any of those to get yourself up to speed, Brendan?

One thing I tried to avoid were breakdowns by other writers or RPG designers, because I felt I should do the heavy lifting myself so that all the errors would be on me. Also I realized a lot of this stuff moved so quickly that one guy's break down from five years ago would potentially be out of date. Since my focus was counter-terrorism, CIA and FBI, I read a lot of handbooks as well as material like the Holden series from Zenith press and reference books on FBI work. I also read a ton of articles and pieced together stuff. Government websites were useful. Text books on intelligence gathering and counter-terrorism were pretty handy too. My sister studied criminal justice, so I ended up borrowing a lot of her books. Ronald Kessler has some good source books too (they have a point of view and are not without their bias, but if you call up the CIA asking for information, they pretty much just direct you to Kessler). I read books by Jonathan White and Bruce Hoffman. I also found that you could contact the press office at the FBI and you can get a tour and talk to an agent about how they do things.

Quote from: RunningLaser;845738Mama's Family!  For a system, it'd have to be as unfun and mindnumbing as the show.

I have spent most of my adult life trying to forget that show existed.

Deadwood - Boot Hill
Rome - OD&D
Band of Brothers - heavily modified Twilight:2000
The Pacific - ditto
Generation:Kill - ditto
Carnivale - Very low point buy Hero System (like, 65-75 points per character at most)
From the Earth to the Moon - Very, very heavily modified Traveller rules

hmm...

Jersey Shore mixed with Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row.  Maybe under a Fantasy Trip like game with special talents and equipment, some special niche rules.  Lots of lurid art, of course.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845762One thing I tried to avoid were breakdowns by other writers or RPG designers, because I felt I should do the heavy lifting myself so that all the errors would be on me.

I won't argue with your method, but it does sound like heavy lifting.

The sources for writers are predigested and thus are, to my mind, less work for someone as a starting point for knowledge. Since terrorist methods, technology, and law enforcement preferences and procedures are in flux all the time I'd probably have been a little less concerned with trying to achieve perfect topicality, though the goal is admirable.

Quote from: Bren;845800I won't argue with your method, but it does sound like heavy lifting.

The sources for writers are predigested and thus are, to my mind, less work for someone as a starting point for knowledge. Since terrorist methods, technology, and law enforcement preferences and procedures are in flux all the time I'd probably have been a little less concerned with trying to achieve perfect topicality, though the goal is admirable.

I can certainly see the value in them. I've considered buying them in the past. I think I like doing research enough that I prefer doing the heavy lifting and I am always nervous about using other peoples' (particularly if it isn't footnoted or endnoted). However I think in the case of TN, I probably could have benefited from one or two of these sorts of books. There were some gaps that emerged and proved difficult to fill.

But I also think that only reinforces my initial point, which was these sorts of shows are difficult for your average game master. If you're buying writers digests to deal with these sorts of details, I think that is a sign of one of the many challenges procedurals present. Don't get me wrong, I like running these sorts of games and I have a whole line of products dedicated to FBI investigations. I just acknowledge the perception out there, and the reality behind it, that many GMs are a little intimidated by the genre. It took me about a year of running them to get to the point where I felt as comfortable as I am with medieval fantasy.

My experience trying to sell this sort of game is there is a small group of people who are hungry for gaming material o the subject. But it is a tough sell (both to players and GMs).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;845805But I also think that only reinforces my initial point, which was these sorts of shows are difficult for your average game master.

I agree with your point.

Any kind of setting that takes more than a cursory knowledge and disallows frequent hand waving is going to be more difficult to run than the average RPG setting. That's why accurate historical settings and setting rich fantasies like Glorantha and Tekumel are a challenge for a lot of people (both GMs and players), especially for completists who worry about getting any little thing wrong.

It would certainly be a lot less work for me to run some loose pastiche like a movie version of the Three Musketeers or Pirates of the Caribbean instead of the historical setting I am running. But like you, I kind of enjoy the research and I enjoy the detail. I just have to strike a balance between my interest and what works as a game for my players.

Quote from: Bren;845812I agree with your point.

Any kind of setting that takes more than a cursory knowledge and disallows frequent hand waving is going to be more difficult to run than the average RPG setting. That's why accurate historical settings and setting rich fantasies like Glorantha and Tekumel are a challenge for a lot of people (both GMs and players), especially for completists who worry about getting any little thing wrong.

I would certainly agree those are tougher for GMs to run.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;845771Deadwood - Boot Hill
Rome - OD&D
Band of Brothers - heavily modified Twilight:2000
The Pacific - ditto
Generation:Kill - ditto
Carnivale - Very low point buy Hero System (like, 65-75 points per character at most)
From the Earth to the Moon - Very, very heavily modified Traveller rules

hmm...

OT: Because I trust your opinion, what is yours on RECON?

I myself like RECON, and would easily run a "Tour of Duty" game with it.

A-Team, Savage Worlds

Top Secret, The Sandbaggers

AFMBE, Walking Dead (Yeah I know that was a gimme)