https://blackfiskforlag.com/products/blood-feud/?fbclid=IwAR3fy0CzhWJwPgrQaWFDGHqzsWJg8TvKHJbhqBt3hx3lzNXw0-sqC82XI0c
'The goal of the game is to explore and experience toxic masculinity, while at the same time creating a thoughtful drama about relationships, competition and social consequences. With this game we want to make toxic masculinity easier to spot for a wider variety of people in our roleplaying communities—and encourage critical discussions about how men behave, and why.'
'There are also mechanics in place that deal specifically with the role of women in the game. The first one: there must always be at least one woman present in every scene. When the last woman in a scene leaves, the scene simply ends. We are only interested in what happens publicly when looking at honor, so what happens when women are not watching doesn't count.'
This sounds like more of a punishment than an actual game. :(
Sounds like somebody wants to play a Viking-themed fanasy RPG and has cleverly disguised it as diversity training.
At least I hope that is what's happening.
Well, someone has to tech us bad men how to behave at the table! LOL
I really hope they employed a sensitivity reader or two!
So much about toxic masculinity, but what about...
https://areomagazine.com/2021/01/26/social-justice-culture-and-toxic-femininity/
Weren't there a couple of games mocking 'social justice' culture?
(Areo is a slightly leftier Quillette.)
" The men came with shields and sticks. She was given a cup of intoxicating drink; she sang at taking it and drank. The interpreter told me that she in this fashion bade farewell to all her girl companions. Then she was given another cup; she took it and sang for a long time while the old woman incited her to drink up and go into the pavillion where her master lay. I saw that she was distracted; she wanted to enter the pavillion but put her head between it and the boat. Then the old woman siezed her head and made her enter the pavillion and entered with her. Thereupon the men began to strike with the sticks on the shields so that her cries could not be heard and the other slave girls would not seek to escape death with their masters. Then six men went into the pavillion and each had intercourse with the girl. Then they laid her at the side of her master; two held her feet and two her hands; the old woman known as the Angel of Death re-entered and looped a cord around her neck and gave the crossed ends to the two men for them to pull. Then she approached her with a broad-bladed dagger, which she plunged between her ribs repeatedly, and the men strangled her with the cord until she was dead." ~ from Ahmad Ibn Fadlahn's description of a norse funeral.
I've a great idea... How can we suck all the fun out an RPG? And we can teach these evil men just how they should be playing their games at the same time. Win... win... right?
Quote from: Null42 on January 29, 2021, 07:45:27 AM
So much about toxic masculinity, but what about...
https://areomagazine.com/2021/01/26/social-justice-culture-and-toxic-femininity/
Weren't there a couple of games mocking 'social justice' culture?
(Areo is a slightly leftier Quillette.)
That is a very well written and well researched article, she (the author), is probably going to get slammed for daring to express contrary opinion in a public space.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 07:54:44 AM
" The men came with shields and sticks. She was given a cup of intoxicating drink; she sang at taking it and drank. The interpreter told me that she in this fashion bade farewell to all her girl companions. Then she was given another cup; she took it and sang for a long time while the old woman incited her to drink up and go into the pavillion where her master lay. I saw that she was distracted; she wanted to enter the pavillion but put her head between it and the boat. Then the old woman siezed her head and made her enter the pavillion and entered with her. Thereupon the men began to strike with the sticks on the shields so that her cries could not be heard and the other slave girls would not seek to escape death with their masters. Then six men went into the pavillion and each had intercourse with the girl. Then they laid her at the side of her master; two held her feet and two her hands; the old woman known as the Angel of Death re-entered and looped a cord around her neck and gave the crossed ends to the two men for them to pull. Then she approached her with a broad-bladed dagger, which she plunged between her ribs repeatedly, and the men strangled her with the cord until she was dead." ~ from Ahmad Ibn Fadlahn's description of a norse funeral.
Keep in mind that's from
Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton, and the book is a retelling of
Beowulf in the form of a 'found manuscript' (as opposed to 'found footage'). The narrator also insists Northmen were some of the filthiest men on Earth, when later archeological expeditions have called this into question.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 29, 2021, 08:20:26 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 07:54:44 AM
" The men came with shields and sticks. She was given a cup of intoxicating drink; she sang at taking it and drank. The interpreter told me that she in this fashion bade farewell to all her girl companions. Then she was given another cup; she took it and sang for a long time while the old woman incited her to drink up and go into the pavillion where her master lay. I saw that she was distracted; she wanted to enter the pavillion but put her head between it and the boat. Then the old woman siezed her head and made her enter the pavillion and entered with her. Thereupon the men began to strike with the sticks on the shields so that her cries could not be heard and the other slave girls would not seek to escape death with their masters. Then six men went into the pavillion and each had intercourse with the girl. Then they laid her at the side of her master; two held her feet and two her hands; the old woman known as the Angel of Death re-entered and looped a cord around her neck and gave the crossed ends to the two men for them to pull. Then she approached her with a broad-bladed dagger, which she plunged between her ribs repeatedly, and the men strangled her with the cord until she was dead." ~ from Ahmad Ibn Fadlahn's description of a norse funeral.
Keep in mind that's from Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton, and the book is a retelling of Beowulf in the form of a 'found manuscript' (as opposed to 'found footage'). The narrator also insists Northmen were some of the filthiest men on Earth, when later archeological expeditions have called this into question.
Ahmad Ibn Fadlahn 's writings predate Chrichton's by 1000 years.
My point in including it here was to illustrate how it was the old woman who murdered the slave girl.
There was the Indian practice of suttee (sati), which the Brits put a stop to...
So it's been around the world.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 08:35:47 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 29, 2021, 08:20:26 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 07:54:44 AM
" The men came with shields and sticks. She was given a cup of intoxicating drink; she sang at taking it and drank. The interpreter told me that she in this fashion bade farewell to all her girl companions. Then she was given another cup; she took it and sang for a long time while the old woman incited her to drink up and go into the pavillion where her master lay. I saw that she was distracted; she wanted to enter the pavillion but put her head between it and the boat. Then the old woman siezed her head and made her enter the pavillion and entered with her. Thereupon the men began to strike with the sticks on the shields so that her cries could not be heard and the other slave girls would not seek to escape death with their masters. Then six men went into the pavillion and each had intercourse with the girl. Then they laid her at the side of her master; two held her feet and two her hands; the old woman known as the Angel of Death re-entered and looped a cord around her neck and gave the crossed ends to the two men for them to pull. Then she approached her with a broad-bladed dagger, which she plunged between her ribs repeatedly, and the men strangled her with the cord until she was dead." ~ from Ahmad Ibn Fadlahn's description of a norse funeral.
Keep in mind that's from Eaters of the Dead by Michael Crichton, and the book is a retelling of Beowulf in the form of a 'found manuscript' (as opposed to 'found footage'). The narrator also insists Northmen were some of the filthiest men on Earth, when later archeological expeditions have called this into question.
Ahmad Ibn Fadlahn 's writings predate Chrichton's by 1000 years.
My point in including it here was to illustrate how it was the old woman who murdered the slave girl.
Gotta eliminate the competition for attention.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 07:39:48 AM
Sounds like somebody wants to play a Viking-themed fanasy RPG and has cleverly disguised it as diversity training.
At least I hope that is what's happening.
Sounds like the reverse to me ....
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 07:39:48 AM
Sounds like somebody wants to play a Viking-themed fanasy RPG and has cleverly disguised it as diversity training.
No GM, no dice, no cards. And it is, of course, coming soon to Kickstarter.
I'm sure there are people who will greatly enjoy this sort of thing, but I'd rather spend my ever-dwindling RPG time having some fun instead of getting lectured.
There's so much wrong with the idea of Toxic Masculinity I don't know where to start. So instead, I'll just say "Hard pass", and post a funny meme.
I'm convinced that no one ever actually plays these games.
"We are only interested in what happens publicly when looking at honor, so what happens when women are not watching doesn't count."
Wow. You know, this reminds me of my own conviction about why slash/yaoi fanfic is so popular among female fans: I honestly think it's because most of them don't really have a clue what actual male friendships are like.
If these designers think the only thing driving masculine competition is winning the approval of women, a similar comprehension gap seems to be in play. (Not that earning female approval isn't a motive; it's just not the only or necessarily most important one.)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 29, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
"We are only interested in what happens publicly when looking at honor, so what happens when women are not watching doesn't count."
Wow. You know, this reminds me of my own conviction about why slash/yaoi fanfic is so popular among female fans: I honestly think it's because most of them don't really have a clue what actual male friendships are like.
If these designers think the only thing driving masculine competition is winning the approval of women, a similar comprehension gap seems to be in play. (Not that earning female approval isn't a motive; it's just not the only or necessarily most important one.)
I'm convinced these approaches are mainly targeted at men who have some element of self-loathing of their own masculinity, and unrealistic perceptions of women.
To mangle a feminist quote, in the game of Feminism, women aren't the other team, they're the ball.
Quote from: Arkansan on January 29, 2021, 02:49:52 PM
I'm convinced that no one ever actually plays these games.
Probably only masochists and fools trying to look kool in front of their own crowd of sjws.
Quote from: Arkansan on January 29, 2021, 02:49:52 PM
I'm convinced that no one ever actually plays these games.
There are some liberal-themed story games that at least get played a fair amount at least within the small niche of storygamers. Examples of these might be Night Witches (a game about female Soviet bomber pilots in WWII) and Bluebeard's Bride (a feminist fairy tale horror game). They don't get played very widely - but that's true of nearly all small-press games.
On the other hand, there are some that as far as I can tell get talked about more than played. Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu got a lot of attention, but I haven't seen them played even in my story game circles. And then some don't even get talked about much, and are basically just someone's pet project.
Quote from: jhkim on January 29, 2021, 07:35:12 PM
Quote from: Arkansan on January 29, 2021, 02:49:52 PM
I'm convinced that no one ever actually plays these games.
There are some liberal-themed story games that at least get played a fair amount at least within the small niche of storygamers. Examples of these might be Night Witches (a game about female Soviet bomber pilots in WWII) and Bluebeard's Bride (a feminist fairy tale horror game). They don't get played very widely - but that's true of nearly all small-press games.
On the other hand, there are some that as far as I can tell get talked about more than played. Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu got a lot of attention, but I haven't seen them played even in my story game circles. And then some don't even get talked about much, and are basically just someone's pet project.
I've heard it said even the people who design these indie games play a lot of D&D, just because of network effects. Wonder if it's true. It is funny how after 45 years D&D remains the industry leader by a mile even as every hardcore gamer can come up with 50 things wrong with it.
I kind of wonder if a game can be an art form even if it's not played. Certainly the creativity that goes into a lot of these is pretty impressive, politics aside.
Quote from: Null42 on January 30, 2021, 09:12:55 AM
I've heard it said even the people who design these indie games play a lot of D&D, just because of network effects. Wonder if it's true. It is funny how after 45 years D&D remains the industry leader by a mile even as every hardcore gamer can come up with 50 things wrong with it.
I kind of wonder if a game can be an art form even if it's not played. Certainly the creativity that goes into a lot of these is pretty impressive, politics aside.
Well, I administered the Indie RPG Awards from 2006 to 2018, and I've had plenty of interactions with many authors. I'd estimate maybe a quarter of the authors play some D&D - though mostly they're playing their own games. I'd say about half of them aren't into any traditional RPGs, only indie games.
Almost all games are played by someone - even if it's just the creator. (Though there are exceptions.) I'd say it's still an art form in the same sense as making your own paintings at home for your own enjoyment is an art form.
Mission accomplished: I certainly wouldn't accuse the creators of "toxic masculinity". ;)
All the more left for us!
Quote from: Arkansan on January 29, 2021, 02:49:52 PM
I'm convinced that no one ever actually plays these games.
Well, if they do, it's only once.
Quote from: Thornhammer on January 29, 2021, 01:53:45 PM
No GM, no dice, no cards. And it is, of course, coming soon to Kickstarter.
I'm sure there are people who will greatly enjoy this sort of thing, but I'd rather spend my ever-dwindling RPG time having some fun instead of getting lectured.
It will be highly entertaining to watch this thing flop.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 08:35:47 AM
My point in including it here was to illustrate how it was the old woman who murdered the slave girl.
Of course. And in the modern day, it's
women who insist on and carry out female genital mutilation in sub-saharan Africa. And it's
men who egg on a man to get into a fight, or rob someone or whatever. In every society in history, the policing of male behaviour is largely carried out by men, and women's largely by women.
So the idea that masculine "honour" only exists in the physical presence of women is a nonsense the authour must have got from some incel forum. And this is the first problem with doing roleplaying games as social and historical education: the authour rarely knows anything about society or history. And the second problem is of course that it's boring and cringey.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 29, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
"We are only interested in what happens publicly when looking at honor, so what happens when women are not watching doesn't count."
Wow. You know, this reminds me of my own conviction about why slash/yaoi fanfic is so popular among female fans: I honestly think it's because most of them don't really have a clue what actual male friendships are like.
Ding, ding, ding, ding...
And we have a winner!
Blood Feud seems like a funny idea, but I doubt it will be able to reach the same levels of hilarity as:
Dungeon Bitcheshttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dyingstylishlygames/dungeon-bitches-a-queer-ttrpg/
"Why Bitches?
In short, because 'Bitch' is a word thrown at women who refuse to be compliant or subservient, and we wanted to embrace that. In this game, all player characters are Bitches – they're women who will no longer sit down and shut up and do as they're told. And in a certain kind of horrible patriarchal society, there's no room for that sort of woman."We are now at a point where these people are making their own SJW parody RPG's...
Not as bad as Thirsty Sword Lesbians
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"
I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"
I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).
Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.
I confess a sense of morbid curiosity for how the mechanics, such as they are, would actually shake out. Are some people permanently playing women? Does everyone have a male and female character? What happens when the Council of Women votes against a particular male character, and the rest of the male characters decide to just Strike a Bunch of Deadly Blows and become VGTOWs? Is that a victory condition?
I kind of feel that this is an interesting intuition pump, because it gets at some stuff accidentally. If honor, as conceived of by the game, is solely actions done by men performatively in front of women, then there is no actual-honor dishonor in being dishonorable. And if the game doesn't actually assess consequences for running out of honor points, then watching the players divide into "I must play these complicated social games, for from them I derive my worth!" and "Nah, gonna fell some trees for my longhouse, plan an epic fishing trip to take full advantage of the tides and seasonal winds, spend three hours a day chopping wood for the winter every day in summer, you and your gossip-circle can do whatever the fuck you want." would be instructive.
Looks like even this can catch the ire of the self-appointed gatekeepers:
https://www.geeknative.com/103651/blood-feud-rpg-designers-deny-their-game-is-a-male-fantasy/
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 08:35:47 AM
My point in including it here was to illustrate how it was the old woman who murdered the slave girl.
"They" would explain that the old woman had internalized misogyny.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 30, 2021, 05:42:52 PM
It will be highly entertaining to watch this thing flop.
Yes it would indeed, but it probably won't.
Given the hate mob woke environment the writers feed on, it has to fund or there is a major loss of credibility within their social media "safe space".
The funding level will probably be set at the bare minimum to get something released just so they can point to it being "successful".
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 02, 2021, 01:20:38 PM
Looks like even this can catch the ire of the self-appointed gatekeepers:
https://www.geeknative.com/103651/blood-feud-rpg-designers-deny-their-game-is-a-male-fantasy/
Now that many people are pushing back, the easier targets are ones who agree with them already.
Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"
I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).
Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.
I had a psychic premonition of someone commenting this based on the well known, rather contextless, factoid that Viking women held a few legal rights at the time. And I was reminded of the story someone once gave about an American expert on China, who because of political difficulties had earned their PhD in Chinese studies but had never in all their life actually been to China. This expert became a professor, taught a class about China at an American university, and the person relating the story was taking their course, and one of their classmates was actually a Chinese student studying abroad. And they got to talking one day about the class and what they were learning, and the Chinese student said, "You know, they've got all the facts right about Chinese society, but it actually just doesn't work that way."
How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"
I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).
Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.
I had a psychic premonition of someone commenting this based on the well known, rather contextless, factoid that Viking women held a few legal rights at the time. And I was reminded of the story someone once gave about an American expert on China, who because of political difficulties had earned their PhD in Chinese studies but had never in all their life actually been to China. This expert became a professor, taught a class about China at an American university, and the person relating the story was taking their course, and one of their classmates was actually a Chinese student studying abroad. And they got to talking one day about the class and what they were learning, and the Chinese student said, "You know, they've got all the facts right about Chinese society, but it actually just doesn't work that way."
How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.
I think we'd find living in a millennia old culture violent, oppressive, dangerous and exhausting regardless of sex, compared to our modern standards.
Hell, I would not want to live in a culture only a few centuries ago, compared to our modern standards.
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"
I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).
Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.
I had a psychic premonition of someone commenting this based on the well known, rather contextless, factoid that Viking women held a few legal rights at the time. And I was reminded of the story someone once gave about an American expert on China, who because of political difficulties had earned their PhD in Chinese studies but had never in all their life actually been to China. This expert became a professor, taught a class about China at an American university, and the person relating the story was taking their course, and one of their classmates was actually a Chinese student studying abroad. And they got to talking one day about the class and what they were learning, and the Chinese student said, "You know, they've got all the facts right about Chinese society, but it actually just doesn't work that way."
How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.
That's why I qualified it as a pretty good deal for the time, compared to the lot of a great many women elsewhere in the world (limited knowledge of history outside of my time as a viking reenactor).
Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.
Quote from: Altheus on February 03, 2021, 08:30:35 AM
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).
Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.
How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.
That's why I qualified it as a pretty good deal for the time, compared to the lot of a great many women elsewhere in the world (limited knowledge of history outside of my time as a viking reenactor).
Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.
I tend to agree with Altheus. The Laxdaela Saga in particular depicts some of the most empowered women characters anywhere in literature until modern times. I find it strange how This Ends Tonight calls out the culture as illiterate. While most people in any medieval society were illiterate, the Icelandic Sagas are one of the greatest collections of pre-modern literature. For example, take this passage from the Laxdaela Saga:
QuoteUnn now got ready to go away from the Faroe Isles, and made it known to her shipmates that she was going to Iceland. She had with her Olaf "Feilan," the son of Thorstein, and those of his sisters who were unmarried. After that she put to sea, and, the weather being favourable, she came with her ship to the south of Iceland to Pumice-Course (Vikrarskeid). There they had their ship broken into splinters, but all the men and goods were saved. After that she went to find Helgi, her brother, followed by twenty men; and when she came there he went out to meet her, and bade her come stay with him with ten of her folk. She answered in anger, and said she had not known that he was such a churl; and she went away, being minded to find Bjorn, her brother in Broadfirth, and when he heard she was coming, he went to meet her with many followers, and greeted her warmly, and invited her and all her followers to stay with him, for he knew his sister's high-mindedness. She liked that right well, and thanked him for his lordly behaviour. She stayed there all the winter, and was entertained in the grandest manner, for there was no lack of means, and money was not spared.
Source: https://sagadb.org/laxdaela_saga.en
This is pretty striking for depicting a woman leading twenty men, and making aggressive demands of her brothers. Sure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.
Quote from: Altheus on February 03, 2021, 08:30:35 AM
Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.
That's pretty much a myth that originated with 18–19th century thinkers who wanted to frame their present day as the high point of history.
Actual archeological evidence though is that the Dark Ages common folk were healthier, lived longer and had a better diet than their equivalents in the Roman Empire. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire was a net boon for everyone who wasn't part of the Roman aristocracy.
It wasn't until the Dark Ages gave way to the Medieval period c. AD 1000 and governments started to centralize again that the standard of living for the lower classes began to deteriorate and this was largely in proportion to the level of centralization and especially urbanization and the accompanying squalor (that the aforementioned folk with a vested interest in profiting off the labor of the urban poor wanted to assure everyone was MUCH better than living in the Dark Ages).
It's not an accident that the areas of most rapid technological progress (and the improved standard of living that comes with it) have almost universally been in the areas least regulated by a central authority. People don't change much, which is why history keeps rhyming.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2021, 11:26:40 AMSure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.
Well, most of the old stories - and many new ones - are warnings or exemplar. It's "don't be like this," or "you should be like this." It's usually easy to figure out when it's a warning, so if it's not a warning, it's exemplary. This is the role model they presented for women.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 29, 2021, 06:16:03 AM
https://blackfiskforlag.com/products/blood-feud/?fbclid=IwAR3fy0CzhWJwPgrQaWFDGHqzsWJg8TvKHJbhqBt3hx3lzNXw0-sqC82XI0c
'The goal of the game is to explore and experience toxic masculinity, while at the same time creating a thoughtful drama about relationships, competition and social consequences. With this game we want to make toxic masculinity easier to spot for a wider variety of people in our roleplaying communities—and encourage critical discussions about how men behave, and why.'
'There are also mechanics in place that deal specifically with the role of women in the game. The first one: there must always be at least one woman present in every scene. When the last woman in a scene leaves, the scene simply ends. We are only interested in what happens publicly when looking at honor, so what happens when women are not watching doesn't count.'
This sounds like more of a punishment than an actual game. :(
Where's the part about women killing their own babies? Is that covered as well?
Greetings!
Hmmm...no Game Master, no Dice Resolution mechanics. Just a narrative SJW circle-jerk is what this game is--if you want to call it a *game* even. The purpose is to "explore and experience toxic masculinity" in pre-Christian Scandinavia.
This is right along the lines of precisely why SJW games and gamers suck and are so pathetic and terrible. They are always trying to turn RPG's into a shitty pseudo-psychological therapy session.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: DocJones on February 02, 2021, 05:09:34 PM"They" would explain that the old woman had internalized misogyny.
(https://i.imgur.com/EGw3MFg.gif)
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2021, 11:26:40 AM
Quote from: Altheus on February 03, 2021, 08:30:35 AM
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM
Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).
Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.
How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.
That's why I qualified it as a pretty good deal for the time, compared to the lot of a great many women elsewhere in the world (limited knowledge of history outside of my time as a viking reenactor).
Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.
I tend to agree with Altheus. The Laxdaela Saga in particular depicts some of the most empowered women characters anywhere in literature until modern times. I find it strange how This Ends Tonight calls out the culture as illiterate. While most people in any medieval society were illiterate, the Icelandic Sagas are one of the greatest collections of pre-modern literature. For example, take this passage from the Laxdaela Saga:
QuoteUnn now got ready to go away from the Faroe Isles, and made it known to her shipmates that she was going to Iceland. She had with her Olaf "Feilan," the son of Thorstein, and those of his sisters who were unmarried. After that she put to sea, and, the weather being favourable, she came with her ship to the south of Iceland to Pumice-Course (Vikrarskeid). There they had their ship broken into splinters, but all the men and goods were saved. After that she went to find Helgi, her brother, followed by twenty men; and when she came there he went out to meet her, and bade her come stay with him with ten of her folk. She answered in anger, and said she had not known that he was such a churl; and she went away, being minded to find Bjorn, her brother in Broadfirth, and when he heard she was coming, he went to meet her with many followers, and greeted her warmly, and invited her and all her followers to stay with him, for he knew his sister's high-mindedness. She liked that right well, and thanked him for his lordly behaviour. She stayed there all the winter, and was entertained in the grandest manner, for there was no lack of means, and money was not spared.
Source: https://sagadb.org/laxdaela_saga.en
This is pretty striking for depicting a woman leading twenty men, and making aggressive demands of her brothers. Sure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.
The situation is complex. And it gets especially complex when we try to use Icelandinc sagas written in Christian times as evidence for life during the viking period.
In many ways the women in the sagas
do seem to have a relatively good deal of power and independence. Certainly more so than women in supposedly more civilised societies of the time such as the Eastern Roman Empire or the Arabic Caliphate.
On the other hand, 'toxic masculinity' is probably a good description of a lot of male behaviour during viking times. Ibn Fadlan's (http://ibn%20fadlan's) description of the ship burial is a good example (it's often said that we can't trust Ibn Fadlan's description of the ship burial as accurate for vikings generally, as the Rus he met had drifted culturally from their scandinavian origins - and while this
may be true, it also may not - at least in regards to the events he describes - which seem to match up reasonably well with Scandinavian archtectural finds. There's a lot we don't know).
And while it may be nice to think of Viking women as warriors, and there are
some accounts of viking women fighting - there isn't really good evidence that it was particularly common.
The other thing is that viking society was a slave owning society and Ibn Fadlan depicts the more unpleasant sexual side of that slave owning society. It's also thought by some that pre-Christian Scandinavia may have been polygamous. (And of course most of the early female population of iceland seem to have been irish slaves) (//http://)
Basically viking history has gone through a period of sanitisation and that seems to have been ending more recently as historians have begun to realise the extent of the slave trading that seems to have taken place.
However,
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 30, 2021, 06:41:55 PM
So the idea that masculine "honour" only exists in the physical presence of women is a nonsense the authour must have got from some incel forum. And this is the first problem with doing roleplaying games as social and historical education: the authour rarely knows anything about society or history. And the second problem is of course that it's boring and cringey.
It's hard to argue with this. I find the idea that masculine ideas of honour were targetted specifically at a female audience somewhat bizarre.
Quote from: TJS on February 03, 2021, 09:23:10 PMI find the idea that masculine ideas of honour were targetted specifically at a female audience somewhat bizarre.
It's just some modern incel or SJW's idea of masculinity. "Surely the only reason to do this is to get laid?" No, bro, just no.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 03, 2021, 02:02:42 PM
Actual archeological evidence though is that the Dark Ages common folk were healthier, lived longer and had a better diet than their equivalents in the Roman Empire. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire was a net boon for everyone who wasn't part of the Roman aristocracy.
Population collapses are great for the survivors.
Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2021, 11:12:24 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 03, 2021, 02:02:42 PM
Actual archeological evidence though is that the Dark Ages common folk were healthier, lived longer and had a better diet than their equivalents in the Roman Empire. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire was a net boon for everyone who wasn't part of the Roman aristocracy.
Population collapses are great for the survivors.
Yep. Also good for getting people to focus on essentials. When you've got to get the shelter made, and the seed in the ground, or the hunt done, or the water found--or die, it tends to focus the mind. Also have to protect any of that from someone else that decides the best way to not die is to kill you and take your stuff. Or enslave you and extract a major chunk of the results of all that work.
What people miss so often about customs is that the needs and the means of dealing with those needs come first. Then if stable for some time, the customs become ingrained, maybe even tradition that will last some time after the needs change. Distinctions, for example, between "women's work" and "men's work" can get blurred in a hurry when it is "everyone pitch in and get this done or we all die." One of the many reasons that your typical SJW is an idiot is that they are so far removed from this kind of survival reality, that they don't understand the cause and effect direction of the customs in the society they criticize. You know, sometimes the needs are so great and so varied, it is important not to have everyone pitch in but instead have everyone do whatever it is that they are best able to do. Or else die. (We aren't even to comparative advantage in that situation.) Sometimes, that means you need the people most capable of exercising brute strength to do so.
Of course, the flip side to that is that when living on the edge that way, it doesn't take much to push you over. Then you die or get enslaved or impoverished anyway. Customs and even traditions develop to try to avoid that fate, too. A lot of people do a lot of hard work so that an SJW has the luxury of demonstrating complete lack of understanding of the human condition with this game. If the author was less of a fool, they'd be more grateful for this fact.
Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2021, 11:12:24 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 03, 2021, 02:02:42 PM
Actual archeological evidence though is that the Dark Ages common folk were healthier, lived longer and had a better diet than their equivalents in the Roman Empire. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire was a net boon for everyone who wasn't part of the Roman aristocracy.
Population collapses are great for the survivors.
They are. I'm also coming to believe they're rather necessary to human civilization in the same way that forest fires are necessary to the health of forests. They clear out the dead wood and corruption and make way for a healthy regrowth.
In terms of recorded history we've had two such collapses, the Late Bronze Age Collapse c. 1100 BC and the European Dark Ages c. AD 460-ish... give or take about 1500 years apart, both concurring with massive corruption, the collapse of global trade and mass migrations of people displaced by famine, invasion or other calamities. The Norse were basically the people ideally situated to take advantage of the power vacuum caused by the Roman collapse and their influence on European culture really can't be understated (see The Normans... Vikings who settled down adopted Christianity and started all sorts of new dynasties).
It's been a bit over 1500 years since the fall of Rome and you can't tell me the people at the top now are the best and brightest at the start of a new dynasty... they're almost invariably either near-cadavers clinging to power or their idiot scions who've never experienced a day outside their bubble of prestige and privilege. They're the types you see at the end of every dynasty; clutching to hold onto power and wealth they neither created or struggled to maintain but feel entitled to by dint of birth as they run the system into the ground.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 04, 2021, 12:18:45 PM
They are. I'm also coming to believe they're rather necessary to human civilization in the same way that forest fires are necessary to the health of forests. They clear out the dead wood and corruption and make way for a healthy regrowth.
Yeah - but most of us die. Experiencing a step-change or full civilisational collapse is not fun.
Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2021, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 04, 2021, 12:18:45 PM
They are. I'm also coming to believe they're rather necessary to human civilization in the same way that forest fires are necessary to the health of forests. They clear out the dead wood and corruption and make way for a healthy regrowth.
Yeah - but most of us die. Experiencing a step-change or full civilisational collapse is not fun.
Thus the Robert Heinlein quote:
Quote
"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck."
I see it as just a little like the weather. It's coming. A lot of it will be bad. Might as well take some comfort in the silver lining.
Quote from: TJS on February 03, 2021, 09:23:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2021, 11:26:40 AM
This is pretty striking for depicting a woman leading twenty men, and making aggressive demands of her brothers. Sure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.
The situation is complex. And it gets especially complex when we try to use Icelandinc sagas written in Christian times as evidence for life during the viking period.
In many ways the women in the sagas do seem to have a relatively good deal of power and independence. Certainly more so than women in supposedly more civilised societies of the time such as the Eastern Roman Empire or the Arabic Caliphate.
On the other hand, 'toxic masculinity' is probably a good description of a lot of male behaviour during viking times.
Quote from: TJS on February 03, 2021, 09:23:10 PM
Basically viking history has gone through a period of sanitisation and that seems to have been ending more recently as historians have begun to realise the extent of the slave trading that seems to have taken place.
Sure. I don't think these are contradictory. Women having more freedom and men acting more violently aren't necessarily at odds. The Laxdaela Saga and other sagas talk about slaves and violent behavior. In some ways, this was Christian condemnation of the vikings by those who wrote down the sagas two centuries after the times they were set in. However, the saga authors also clearly had an admiration for their violent great-great-grandparents, and the tales themselves were probably oral traditions from much earlier. There are endless arguments of exactly how accurate the sagas are, but I think there is material for heroism and for toxicity in the sagas.
Quote from: TJS on February 03, 2021, 09:23:10 PM
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 30, 2021, 06:41:55 PM
So the idea that masculine "honour" only exists in the physical presence of women is a nonsense the authour must have got from some incel forum. And this is the first problem with doing roleplaying games as social and historical education: the authour rarely knows anything about society or history. And the second problem is of course that it's boring and cringey.
It's hard to argue with this. I find the idea that masculine ideas of honour were targetted specifically at a female audience somewhat bizarre.
Agreed.
Quote from: Thornhammer on January 29, 2021, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 07:39:48 AM
Sounds like somebody wants to play a Viking-themed fanasy RPG and has cleverly disguised it as diversity training.
No GM, no dice, no cards. And it is, of course, coming soon to Kickstarter.
I'm sure there are people who will greatly enjoy this sort of thing, but I'd rather spend my ever-dwindling RPG time having some fun instead of getting lectured.
This clarifies to me what I should take as a warning to avoid. If an rpg lacks dice or some other random result generator, then take that as a sign to flee, nothing actually fun can result from it.
Quote from: wmarshal on February 05, 2021, 02:25:16 PM
This clarifies to me what I should take as a warning to avoid. If an rpg lacks dice or some other random result generator, then take that as a sign to flee, nothing actually fun can result from it.
Even RPGPundit has published diceless games. While it might not be to your taste, I wouldn't associate diceless play with games being similar to Blood Feud. Here's Pundit on his diceless game from ten years ago.
Quote from: RPGPunditSo, to begin with: Lords of Olympus is a diceless RPG where the players portray children of the Greek gods. Yes, diceless. You see, over 20 years ago, a guy named Erick Wujcik wrote the first-ever totally diceless RPG; Amber Diceless Roleplaying. Mr. Wujcik's game was revolutionary unlike anything that had appeared in the hobby since D&D itself. And the Amber Diceless RPG was a huge success, selling hundreds of thousands of copies over its lifetime, and spawning not one but a whole series of Conventions dedicated to its play, as well as hundreds of websites (most gone now, but back in the early days of the World Wide Web, the net was chalk-full of Amber campaign sites), a huge MUSH, and other things.
Source: http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2014/02/rpgpundit-reviews-lords-of-olympus-by.html
One of GM's in my team is big fan of Amber and was trying for several years to make us play it - though between two long D&D 3,5 campaigns, and his other projects, we still have not done it.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 05, 2021, 04:18:18 PM
One of GM's in my team is big fan of Amber and was trying for several years to make us play it - though between two long D&D 3,5 campaigns, and his other projects, we still have not done it.
It's been many years, but my memory of GMing Amber was that the system was exhausting. Most of the dice rolls are instead put to GM judgement, and that's a lot of judging to do.
Old memory, IMO and all that.
Well possible. I like Amber setting, but also I sort of like uncertainity of dice.
Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"
I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.
Well said.
Quote from: robh on February 02, 2021, 05:25:45 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 30, 2021, 05:42:52 PM
It will be highly entertaining to watch this thing flop.
Yes it would indeed, but it probably won't.
Given the hate mob woke environment the writers feed on, it has to fund or there is a major loss of credibility within their social media "safe space".
The funding level will probably be set at the bare minimum to get something released just so they can point to it being "successful".
That's the tactics they use after all. Actual metrics and statistics don't matter to them.