TheRPGSite

Want to really rant about this.....

At my store we wound up with an extra DM kit for this so my manager gave it to me.

AAaRRGGHH!!!

 This is what they sent out?

Oh there is either 'story gaming' or 'forgie' influence in the writing of this and terminology.
 Hell outright MMO terms are used on the front page of the booklet. If this is how they want 4/e D&D  Dungeon Masters to design their adventures - no wonder I'm having troubles as a player in that campaign.  The mindset is all weird and strange.

Anyone on this board reun this thing earlier today?

 Did you follow the instructions as they wrote it ?

WHY?

Or rather did you TRY to follow the instructions then say "What the Fuck?"


- Ed C.

OK, we got the rant part. Could you give us some examples of this weird terminology and writing?

A simple kit to let any random somebody(who's never done this before) cobble together an adventure in less than an hour ended up underwhelming. Pregens were laughably built, worse than usual. I'm less impressed with this Game Day than in the past.

Better or worse than Keep on the Shadowfell?

Sorry if it was underwhelming.  Hopefully, folks still had a good time.

Quote from: Zachary The First;332611Better or worse than Keep on the Shadowfell?

Sorry if it was underwhelming.  Hopefully, folks still had a good time.

What the hell is a "Shadowfell" anyway??

I'm still trying to get a good description or feel for that in the D&D game that I'm in.

What is it? - spooky 'jump space' realm like in TRAVELLER - just for D&D worlds tho ?

- Ed C.

And I see we are still no closer to finding out why the latest 4E DM Store Kit has irritated Koltar so much...

Jeez, just have another Pabst Blue Ribbon and go to bed already.

Quote from: jeff37923;332617And I see we are still no closer to finding out why the latest 4E DM Store Kit has irritated Koltar so much...

Jeez, just have another Pabst Blue Ribbon and go to bed already.

Give me an hour , my sleep shedule has been fucked up.

- Ed

Quote from: Koltar;332618Give me an hour , my sleep shedule has been fucked up.

- Ed

I was joking. Please tell me you are not drinking PBR. Anything but that, that or Miller High Life. Please tell me you are not drinking PBR or Miller High Life.

Quote from: jeff37923;332620I was joking. Please tell me you are not drinking PBR. Anything but that, that or Miller High Life. Please tell me you are not drinking PBR or Miller High Life.

Of course not - I can't stand the taste of most beers.

 Remember the "Recommend me a Good Beer" thread?


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;332621Of course not - I can't stand the taste of most beers.

 Remember the "Recommend me a Good Beer" thread?


- Ed C.

I'm also curious as to the language in it that is forgie.  

Also, don't drink schlitz out of a can, or you'll have the shitz on the can.

The first messed up thing I saw that jumped outat me was on the front page.  Its annoyingly titled - Step2A: Pick A Boss.

They're not 'Bosses" damnit - they're called masterminds!! Whats with the fucking MMO terminology?? (and if I'm picking aboss......)*

 Its a goddamn at the table roleplaying game!!

 Let me guess, WotC guys, HASBRO giving you pressure to make it sound like WoW because they think thats what sells?

OR they think the only potential customers are online addicts and not people that actually play games around a table?

Or are they giving up the over 25 years old market entirely?


- Ed C.


* If I'm picking a Boss - can a pick a really cute one in her early 30s with brunette hair that looks good in a woman's suit while wearing glasses - oh damn not THAT kind of Boss.!! I knew that.

So...how did Worldwide D&D Game Day go, though?

Quote from: Koltar;332626Or are they giving up the over 25 years old market entirely?

They may very well be doing this?

Wonder if they have done any recent market surveys which determined that gamers over age 25 are not a viable market for them anymore.

Quote from: Zachary The First;332627So...how did Worldwide D&D Game Day go, though?

Zach , Did YOU run it ?

 Did you try to run it?

Did you do the "group exercises" and team-building aspects of it?

How did it go in your town?


- Ed C.

Koltar, you're making even less sense than usual.

Back up a step, take some time to compose an actual post, sans "ARGHS" and exclamation points, and tell us what the sodding thing actually reads.

Koltar usually makes a lot of sense.

Doesn't mean one AGREES with him.

But he's not the most nonsensical guy on this board by a long shot.

Quote from: Koltar;332630Zach , Did YOU run it ?

 Did you try to run it?

Did you do the "group exercises" and team-building aspects of it?

How did it go in your town?


- Ed C.

No, sir, I did not.  I did some planning for my upcoming campaign today, but I'm not a 4e player, and didn't have the time to organize anything as an alternative this time around.  I know there was some Pathfinder going on, but I didn't get over there.

There's group exercises?

Quote from: Koltar;332616What the hell is a "Shadowfell" anyway??

(http://www.stargazersworld.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/20090320.jpg)

:rotfl:

I'm not sure, because I only heard about this second hand from a store-owner, but I think Koltar is talking about a team gaming exercise in the kit where the participants are required to create an adventure in a limited time and then pass the adventure on to another team who then runs it.

To me, as I understand it, it sounds like a fucked-up corporate culture team-building exercise applied to D&D 4E.

That's an excellent analogy for what it was. Additionally, I believe, an exercise designed to demonstrate that being a GM isn't very hard.

Maybe they have the DM fall backwards, trusting the players will catch him:

(http://themasterstable.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/trust-fall.jpg)

Quote from: jeff37923;332648To me, as I understand it, it sounds like a fucked-up corporate culture team-building exercise applied to D&D 4E.

THANK YOU JEFF!!!

Thats the phrase or term I was looking for!!

Yes, it seemed that fucked up.

I'm reading over it and I expect the old guy from gecko commercial to suggest the "Let me fall back and you catch me" thing at some point.

Oh and the character mix in the pre-generated character cards seems kind of screwy.   What did they do ? Put the the 3rd string writers on this? The Office Boy or fan boy that hangs around their offices - did he write those?

The adventure sketch reads like it was suggested and half-written by people that have never really played in an RPG campaign. They only dabbled in RPGs, but they have a job at WotC and have to justify their paychecks. So, they read stuff on wikipedia - and put that in there.


- Ed C.

Damn ...Zach scooped me on that joke reference.


- Ed

Ever see ther George Carlin routine about the Airline Travel safety lecture?
Yeah - well imagine the voice he used for that while reading this.

This is a taste of :

QuoteA PASSAGE INTO MYSTERY
ADVENTURE CREATION INSTRUCTIONS

BUILDING YOUR OWN ADVENTURE
This instruction document contains quick guidelines for creating an adventure out of the materials provided. Follow each step below to create a short adventure in a small amount of time. If you are participating in this activity as a team, you will most likely have a limited amount of time (probably 1 hour) to create the adventure. If you divide up responsibilities and coordinate, you should be able to create 2 encounters’ worth of play in that time.
   Take Home Prep: If your organizer gave you these instructions to take home and build an adventure, you’ll likely have a lot more time to work on your encounters. You might want to review Chapter 4: Building Encounters in the Dungeon Master’s Guide while constructing your adventure.
   Team-Built Adventure: If your organizer placed you into a team, you will be creating the adventure at the event. After you finish, the team leads will DM the created adventure for another team. The other participants will play another team’s creation!

STEP 0: PICK A TEAM LEAD
Pick one person in your team to act as the team coordinator and DM. This person will be the one responsible for gathering up the encounter worksheets and reviewing the adventure before DMing it for another team. Ideally, that person should have experience as a Dungeon Master.

STEP 1: DETERMINE YOUR THEME
Time: 10 minutes
Adventure Setting: A cavern network above a waterfall, about 5 miles from a nearby village.
   Before you begin passing out the encounter worksheets and breaking into smaller teams to work on the 2 encounters, choose a theme for your adventure. Why are the adventurers going to the caverns? Some sample themes are provided below, or make up your own!

...breaking up into teams?,....encounter worksheets?

again - What the fuck?


- Ed C.

Yeah, I've noticed a bunch of ads for the fun and glory of DMing. Hope that works out for them.

Or you could just break out B1 In Search of the Unknown and be done with it.... How hard would that be to port over to 4th?(I don't own 4th ed, so it's a real question)

I don't see what the problem is. People making collaborative adventures and then playing them is a sin now?

Koltar: please take the time to gather your thoughts about what appalled you exactly. So far it's a bit like listening to some drunk guy and all I get is that you're disgusted but that's about it.

I agree with DeadUematsu : a one shot game where one table prepares an adventure for another table and vice versa seems like potentially fun... it might be inappropriate for beginners though, and there should be something to cull idiotic adventure ideas in the process.

Quote from: Nazgul;332661Or you could just break out B1 In Search of the Unknown and be done with it.... How hard would that be to port over to 4th?(I don't own 4th ed, so it's a real question)

Woah woah. That's STEP 2: pick a theme. You have to do STEP 0 first.
   STEP 0: PICK A TEAM LEAD
Pick one person in your team to act as the team coordinator and DM. This person will be the one responsible for gathering up the encounter worksheets and reviewing the adventure before DMing it for another team. Ideally, that person should have experience as a Dungeon Master.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;332663I don't see what the problem is. People making collaborative adventures and then playing them is a sin now?

I would say you are going to get shitty results if you only are given an hour to do so, and then told you cannot run what you have just written but must hand it off to another to run (who has no idea what you have been working on since they were part of another team). I view it not as a sin (nice hyperbole on your part I might add), but as a recipe for disaster because the results generated by this pressure cooker method are going to be all over the map in their worth as adventures.

You get out of a RPG session what you put into it. When the DM does not have enough prep time to create an adventure, you cannot expect very good results even from experienced gamers as DMs.

Quote from: jeff37923;332620I was joking. Please tell me you are not drinking PBR. Anything but that, that or Miller High Life. Please tell me you are not drinking PBR or Miller High Life.

I have no problem admitting, sir, that I enjoy both PBR and the High Life. The High Life especially. I have spent many a night with the Girl on the Moon as I imbibed the light, crisp wonders of the High Life. It's my favorite of the mass-produced domestic beers. I know it's all hip to rag on those beers, but I like a lot of 'em. Doesn't mean it's all I like...now that I'm back east of the Mississippi, I miss (for example) Fat Tire, and stuff like Karl Strauss' Barley Wine and Russian Imperial Stout.

Quote from: Koltar;332626The first messed up thing I saw that jumped outat me was on the front page.  Its annoyingly titled - Step2A: Pick A Boss.
...
 Let me guess, WotC guys, HASDBRO giving you pressure to make it sound like WoW because thewy think thats what sells?

Or are they giving up the over 25 years old market entirely?

- Ed C.

What makes you think that the demographics of the MMO market is dominated by the under 25 year olds?

QuoteComputer games used to be aimed at pubescent boys hooked on violence, or, as Bobby Kotick, the chief executive of Activision, describes them, "guys who can't get a date on Saturday night".

However, times have changed: 40 per cent of purchasers of one of Mr Kotick's most popular games are women.

One of these "most popular" games in question run by Kotick is World of Warcraft. And the precise quote is that gaming is "no longer about 16 to 24-year-old males who can't get a date on Saturday night", but about men and women in their 30s - people with regular income.

That, and the reference you cited in the GameDay material to a "team coordinator" "responsible for gathering up the worksheets" seems to indicate that WotC aren't going for students at all.

@Jeff: From what Koltar posted, two people working on one encounter for one hour seems like a fair amount to put something solid together. Also, the person who will then run the adventure is a part of the group creating the adventure, not somebody who picks it up cold, get your facts straight. Finally, Koltar's reaction is way out of line for what's being proposed and nothing looks like it's a recipe for disaster so far. As for the rest of your reply, I am just going to roll my eyes and sigh.

Yeah, so far I'm not seeing anything to get panties bunched up about. At all. Sounds like a decent way to try something a bit different from normal.

Quote from: jeff37923;332669I would say you are going to get shitty results if you only are given an hour to do so ... a recipe for disaster because the results generated by this pressure cooker method are going to be all over the map in their worth as adventures.

I don't think time is necessarily the greatest detractor in this scenario. If I had an hour with gamer friends of mine, we could cook up something half decent. What will be harder to get round is the fact that in the set up of previous Game Days you had a clear separation of guys who'd prepped for the event (DMs running the module, getting it and the minis) and guys who'd attend the event purely from a consumerist perspective (I go there to play, don't even have to create a character, and get some freebies afterwards). I'm not sure how this DMG2 day event sits with people of the latter bent. Factor in team leaders and worksheets, and this may rub these passive people the wrong way - rub them like... work. Querying (apparently unprompted) creative input doesn't sit easily with everyone, after all. I'm saying that as someone who gets pissed when offered free cinema tickets at a pre-screening event, and then having to stay behind to volunteer an opinion or two. See, I just want the ride, not the effort when going to promotion events.

On the other hand, kudos to WotC for trying to run a Game Day on the DMG 2 at all. It clearly couldn't have been player-oriented (PC-oriented) to begin with, and WotC didn't pretend they could wriggle their way out of that. God knows, maybe this sort of event even gets a guy or two to DM who otherwise would have not felt like before. That's precisely the thing the hobby needs.

Quote from: Windjammer;332674That, and the reference you cited in the GameDay material to a "team coordinator" "responsible for gathering up the worksheets" seems to indicate that WotC aren't going for students at all.

Its a Role Playing Game, not an MMO.

Its a Role Playing Game, not a team building exercise at a corporate retreat.


- Ed C.

Where's the damn Forger terminology you promised.

Regards,
David R

Linky!
 
http://www.isa.pl/magic/pliki/DMG2-Game-Day-Adventure-Creation-Instructions.pdf

Quote from: Koltar;332684Its a Role Playing Game, not an MMO.

Its a Role Playing Game, not a team building exercise at a corporate retreat.


- Ed C.

Seriously, how does using the term "boss" or that adventure-building exercise (because that's what it is) invalidate anything a RPG stands for, Koltar? You have people on this site harping a billion other things more off-putting and THIS is what draws your ire?

The rest of "Step 1" on to the "Step 2A: Pick A Boss" :

QuoteSTEP 1: DETERMINE YOUR THEME
Time: 10 minutes
Adventure Setting: A cavern network above a waterfall, about 5 miles from a nearby village.
   Before you begin passing out the encounter worksheets and breaking into smaller teams to work on the 2 encounters, choose a theme for your adventure. Why are the adventurers going to the caverns? Some sample themes are provided below, or make up your own!
·   Rescue a kidnapped villager. A villager from a nearby village has gone missing, and the adventurers have been hired by the villagers to find the kidnapped person(s). The trail of the kidnappers leads them to the cavern complex.
·   Eradicate the raiders. Raiders from the caverns have plagued the village and nearby farms of late, and the adventurers have been promised a reward from the villagers for ridding the countryside of their menace.
·   Investigate a strange cult. At night, villagers often see torchlit figures traveling to the cavern complex near the waterfall. Those that dare get close enough to the caverns hear strange chanting sounds and occasional screams.
·   Seek out a valuable treasure. For many years, the villagers have spread tales of a great treasure that lies hidden within the nearby caverns. However, no one that has ventured forth to claim the treasure has returned. The adventurers arrive to test their mettle against the dangers that await and claim the treasure for their own.

STEP 2: SELECT MONSTERS FOR ENCOUNTERS
Time: 20 minutes
You won't use all the monsters provided in the kit for the 2 encounters. However, we've provided you with enough monsters to pick and choose what you'd like to use for the adventure. The kit provides you with the following monsters and quantities (stats for the monsters are at the end of this document):
·   x1 doomdreamer: level 8 controller (leader)
·   x1 duergar cleric of Asmodeus: level 7 controller (leader)
·   x3 duergar guard: level 4 soldier
·   x1 foulspawn hulk: level 12 brute
·   x1 foulspawn mangler: level 8 skirmisher
·   x1 hoard scarab larva swarm: level 7 lurker
·   x3 minotaur thug: level 9 skirmisher
·   x1 scarecrow stalker: level 6 soldier

Cool Themes: A few good themes include the two foulspawn, which are aberrant creatures corrupted by the mad plane known as the Far Realm; the duergar cleric and his guards, which are a race of dwarves tainted by infernal forces, and the doomdreamer (a human that follows the insane tenets of Tharizdum, the chaotic evil deity of entropy and annihilation) with his minotaur thugs.

STEP 2A: PICK A BOSS
The doomdreamer (good for a hard adventure) and duergar cleric of Asmodeus (good for an easy or average adventure) make great "boss villains, " since they're both leaders and could be the masterminds behind your theme. The doomdreamer likes to use the minotaur thugs as muscle, and the duergar cleric often uses the duergar guards for protection. If your theme doesn't involve a leader-type, you don't have to choose one.

Its NOT a "BOSS" its a Mastermind damnit.

Thats fucking WoW/MMO terminology in there.

Oh and the "themes"  - what, they didn't like the word plot? or idea? or hook?

- Ed C.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332693Linky!
 
http://www.isa.pl/magic/pliki/DMG2-Game-Day-Adventure-Creation-Instructions.pdf

Thank You Malleus Arianorum.

Its just screwed up .
 Its really screwed up.


- Ed C.

So I read the PDF and I have to say, I see nothing wrong with it. Koltar, you're being ridiculous.

Hmm.  It's not terrible.  It lays things out neatly and sequentially for new DMs.

Its glaring problem is just the universal symptom of 4E: it presumes that "adventure" is synonymous with "combat excursion for DDM".

I dunno. What I see is a sort of mad-lib dungeon. [This] means I done wrote it.
 
Adventure Theme
Write out the theme of the adventure below.
Rescue a kidnapped villager.
A villiager [professor, diplomat, author, and national security expert] from a nearby village [Washington D.C.] has gone missing, and the adventurers have been hired by the villagers to find the kidnapped person(s) [Condoleezza Rice]. The trail of the kidnappers leads them to the cavern complex.
 
Adventure Read-Aloud Start
Explain to the players why their characters have come to the caverns in the space below. The DM will read this text to the players when they are ready to begin the adventure.
 
Traversing the wilds, you come upon a waterfall spilling over the
edge of a cliff face about 30 feet high. At the top of the cliff, a cave entrance is visible. What lies beyond is [Condoleezza Rice who you should rescue and not kill].
 
Adventure Read-Aloud Conclusion
Give a brief conclusion that explains what happens if the characters succeed in the adventure. The DM will read this text to the players when they finish the adventure.
 
[Everyone but Condoleezza Rice and you guys are dead so you win. She's being waterboarded by a machine hooked up to the waterfall, but she doesn't think it's torture so no big hurry.] On the lower left of the map, the cavern exits out back into the countryside.

The DMG 2 gameday event is a special meant to showcase the fun of Dungeon Mastering, which includes building an adventure in about an hour.

I don't think "Masterminds" is standard terminology. If there was a villian who had in fact "masterminded" something, I might be tempted to call him a mastermind, but in general, I dont think it matters. Boss works just as well if it's generally a bigger monster. Standardized terminology in general, is stupid.

So, to explain the event, rather than simply have DMs involved, it involves everyone in the group as a team to build the adventure (so that the non-DMs have something to do), and then you trade your adventure to the other team so that each team can be somewhat surprised by the other team's creativity.

The real parallels between this and the forge is I that witnessed some of these same fucking conversations with the people who eventually became forgies back in 2000-2001. They were resentful and angry and felt superior to the mere D&D players, who remained completely unaware of this because they were busy  actually gaming and not coming up with theories or lamenting the old days.

I expect about half of you to be drawing triangle charts and crying bitterly on your blogs within 3 years. If you haven't started already.

Quote from: Zachary The First;332627So...how did Worldwide D&D Game Day go, though?

We played. Mostly it was our (big) group with a few extra folks thrown in. We had two tables.

I think Koltar's off his rocker in respect to much of what he's saying. "Pick your boss" means it's an MMO, particularly when the two choices are both leaders of organizatons - i.e., bosses.

I don't have enough experience with 4e to tell how well put together the pre-gens were, but the other ten participants all seemed to think they weren't fantastically solid. The Fighter was, as I understand it, the worst of them.

Although I don't see anything particularly...corporate or upsetting with the idea of one table building another table's "adventure."

However, I don't think theoretically it's the best of ideas. You potentially have a table full of strangers - geek strangers - all working together under a time crunch. They're not going to agree (sweet mother of God, they're not going to agree), get distracted, et al..

And that's basically what happened. Our table did well. The table with the group's rules lawyer (or ex-rules lawyer as the case now is) didn't fair so well.

Also, there were some hard feelings between the tables. The other group designed their two encounters for our three players - in other words, sort of easy (although they did have one dirty trick). We designed ours for a full compliment of experienced players - in other words, as difficult as we could make it with the resources at hand.

But I thought it did a decent job of doing what it was supposed to: give people a wee taste of 4e. I attended one of these for 3e and it was pretty much the same: a flimsy reason to go adventuring, a couple of encounters, and a congratulations at the end.

Seanchai

Quote from: DeadUematsu;332694You have people on this site harping a billion other things more off-putting and THIS is what draws your ire?

It's the new Koltar. Still a bit of a buffoon, but now an angry buffoon. And if he's going to follow in Pundit's footsteps, he's got to find himself a windmill...

Seanchai

Forgie terminology and MMO terminology are pretty much on entirely opposite extremes of the spectrum. Seriously.

Not to mention "boss" isn't MMO terminology. It's general video game terminology since like the '70s. They even put it in quotation marks, indicating that it wasn't the official terminology, but rather something put there to help n00bs get the idea. They then went on to say "since they’re both leaders and could be the masterminds behind your theme." What could they be? Oh, right, the masterminds.

Your complaints would be easier to take seriously if they resembled reality a bit more.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;332735I don't think "Masterminds" is standard terminology. If there was a villian who had in fact "masterminded" something, I might be tempted to call him a mastermind, but in general, I dont think it matters. Boss works just as well if it's generally a bigger monster. Standardized terminology in general, is stupid.

Well, the terms occur in the context of building encounters featuring multiple monsters. As you perfectly know, 4E shortcircuits that process by featuring encounter templates which specify which "monster roles" make for good combinations. However. The monster roles in 4E are codified in terms of their function on the battlemap (lurker, soldier, ...) and this may not be the best way to draw new DMs in, as it presupposes a certain understanding of miniature tactics.

So one way to get round that problem - building a team of monsters without presupposing acquaintance with miniature rules - is to address the task, that of buiding a team of monsters, at a more intuitive level - that of how the monsters interact in-game (as opposed to: how the miniatures interact).

This is perhaps not "standard" in 4E (to use your term), but it has strong precedents in D&D 3rd edition. If you look at your 3.0 DMG, page 120-121, there's the method of stocking a dungeon by slotting monsters into the roles of
- critter: limited bestial intelligence
- toughts: reasonable, but still limited intelligence
- fiend: high intelligence
The idea here is to figure out who "runs" the monster team, who can issue commands (i.e. the hierarchy chain) and who in the remainder of the monster team is in a position to act on such commands. And for what it's worth, 4E's term "mastermind" is a vastly more intuitive label for that position than 3.0's "fiend".

Mike Mearls revisited this theme in his work Dungeons for FFG (in the Legends & Lairs product line), pp.100-101, and here we have for the first time the switch of perspective that 4E later becomes famous for. Instead of thinking about "monster roles" at the level of the monster's intelligence, monsters become tactical pieces to play with on a battle map. As such, their "roles" aren't dictated by their own intelligence (and the intelligence of other monsters commanding them); they are neatly delineated into what the tactically intelligent DM can do with them. Mearls then uses the categorization of spellcasters, sneaks, and warriors (the last two would be lurkers and soldiers in 4E).

I think it would be good if 4E returned more to the 3.0 mold of thinking about monster tactics. It'd certainly diminish somewhat the DDM-like feel to combats, since the DM, as much as the players, is asked to base his decisions on in-game considerations rather than the synoptic POV enjoyed by a  tactical mastermind not present in the game world itself.

This thing might generate ire precisely because it effectively codifies how GMs create short adventures. That is, it reveals the secrets of the order and, moreover, shows just how banal they really are.

It looks like an effective document, to me, that reaches its target audience and delivers game. What else is to rail about but the implicit denigration of our sacred tasks as Keepers of the Secrets?

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;332672I have no problem admitting, sir, that I enjoy both PBR and the High Life. The High Life especially. I have spent many a night with the Girl on the Moon as I imbibed the light, crisp wonders of the High Life. It's my favorite of the mass-produced domestic beers. I know it's all hip to rag on those beers, but I like a lot of 'em. Doesn't mean it's all I like...now that I'm back east of the Mississippi, I miss (for example) Fat Tire, and stuff like Karl Strauss' Barley Wine and Russian Imperial Stout.

You are a more stoic man than I. Last time I drank Miller High Life, I threw up.

And how can you not get Fat Tire? They sell it at Wal-Mart here.

Who is this Moon girl?

Quote from: Windjammer;332747I think it would be good if 4E returned more to the 3.0 mold of thinking about monster tactics. It'd certainly diminish somewhat the DDM-like feel to combats, since the DM, as much as the players, is asked to base his decisions on in-game considerations rather than the synoptic POV enjoyed by a  tactical mastermind not present in the game world itself.

FWIW, I agree with you and blogged about this exact topic less than a month ago. Unfortunately, I just think that it has everything  to do with the DM in question, and will require more cultural change than a rules-change.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;332679@Jeff: From what Koltar posted, two people working on one encounter for one hour seems like a fair amount to put something solid together. Also, the person who will then run the adventure is a part of the group creating the adventure, not somebody who picks it up cold, get your facts straight.

It isn't just an encounter, it is an adventure - multiple encounters. The person running the adventure is also not part of the group writing it - which is a big disconnect made larger by the time constraints of this exercise. Go read it again, or just check out the PDF.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332693Linky!
 
http://www.isa.pl/magic/pliki/DMG2-Game-Day-Adventure-Creation-Instructions.pdf

If this is it, it doesn't look that bad, except it appears to be written for 14 yr old beginners to the game, which isn't a bad thing either if that's the target market of 4.0.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;332765If this is it, it doesn't look that bad, except it appears to be written for 14 yr old beginners to the game, which isn't a bad thing either if that's the target market of 4.0.

Wonder if WotC's philosophy is to make DMing really easy in 4E, such that DM specific splatbooks will sell better (ie. monster manuals, open grave, etc ...).

More DMs = more groups of players = more players buying player-oriented splat books.

I remember back in the day, the people who didn't DM 1E AD&D typically did not buy the DMG, MM, or any modules.  Some of the more "casual" players didn't even buy the PHB in those days.

By the time it was the 3.5E D&D era, the players in my games typically had the PHB and maybe a splatbook or two such as the "Complete ..." books.  One player even used a "Races of ..." book.  Nevertheless, the casual players typically didn't buy anything like the DMG, monster manuals, manual of the planes, etc ... nor any modules.  They also didn't buy any Forgotten Realms or Eberron splatbooks either.

In my 4E games so far, the players have the PHB1, PHB2, and some of the "... Power" books.  No idea if any of them have any of the DM specific books such as the DMG1, MM1, MM2, Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon, etc ...

It looks like the crap group exercises we had to suffer through at school and were pretty universally hated back in the day.

Like someone else said, that looks awfully like work to someone who just expected to sit down and play. Heck, it looks like more work than I usually put in preparation for the games I run (I usually just come up with a rough idea and improvise from there).

Quote from: Koltar;332695Its NOT a "BOSS" its a Mastermind damnit.

Grade-A bullshit.

I'm 33, and I'm the youngest in my D&D group. The oldest is 45. None of us play WoW or any other MMO. We have never used the term "mastermind" to describe the ultimate enemy. The term "boss" is used frequently.

I certainly won't get any use out of this sort of thing, but the (presumably alcohol-fueled) nigh-incoherent rant is just ridiculous.

Is this the only example of MMO terminology you can come up with? We were promised forgie and MMO terminology. Where is it?

Quote from: Joethelawyer;332765If this is it, it doesn't look that bad, except it appears to be written for 14 yr old beginners to the game, which isn't a bad thing either if that's the target market of 4.0.

It doesn't have to be the target market of 4E. I'm sure 14-year-old beginners are a target market of 4E.

I'm 32, and I NEVER used the term "Boss" for a bad guy in a tabletop RPG.
Mileages vary in this regard.

Quote from: Benoist;332790I'm 32, and I NEVER used the term "Boss" for a bad guy in a tabletop RPG.
Mileages vary in this regard.

Indeed. Thus the rant that they are masterminds and specifically not bosses is way off-base.

I'm not claiming that they are properly called bosses. Just that the claim that they are properly called masterminds (and calling them bosses is, like, so MMO) is bullshit.

Quote from: Benoist;332790I'm 32, and I NEVER used the term "Boss" for a bad guy in a tabletop RPG.
Mileages vary in this regard.

Honestly I don't recall ever thinking in terms of the implicit hierarchy this whole idea assumes -- that there are a lot of easy guys and then one big hard guy. *That* bit seems to derive somewhat from comic and some film, but certainly and unabashedly from video games (well prior to any MMO).

I don't care what term one prefers. The concept is worth thinking about because if one designs sessions on that framework then there's an awful lot of possible stories lost. That's a pretty simplistic skeleton to flesh out.

Quote from: Fifth Element;332792I'm not claiming that they are properly called bosses. Just that the claim that they are properly called masterminds (and calling them bosses is, like, so MMO) is bullshit.

I honestly don't care about the whole line of "It's MMO speech!" arguments. I do believe that just looking at 4e shows how it was influenced by computer game design in general, which is not good or bad, but simply a fact, just like it's a fact that computer game design was influenced by tabletop RPGs a few decaddes earlier.

I believe that "boss" is computer game speech. Not MMO in particular, mind you, but it does come from computer game design in general. Do you agree?

I've heard it since I started playing in the mid nineties. In fact, 'Left to the treasure, right to the boss' was an (oft hilariously incorrect) saying that marks most of my early RPG days across multiple groups.

It probably does have its roots in computer/videogames, but I think it has a longer associations with pencil and paper RPGs than many other commonly used terms do at this point.

I had never heard mastermind used as a term before today, though, which shows that anything is probably pretty regional.

Hrrrmm? What?...  GD taps his pipe out and refills it, then relights the pipe producing voluminous clouds of rich dense smoke

Us old school guys simply call them villains, evil overlords, and of course, by their level title. One of the lamentable things about the Rules Cyclopedia is that it did not include the level titles that were frequently found in the other 0D&D character class descriptions.

Evil Champion or Evil Myrmidon has quite the ring to it, no? Likewise there were epiteths for human bosses or masterminds such as warrior, swordmaster, veteran, acoylte, priest, seer, conjuror, warlock, and wizard, and many more. Evil monster Bosses were simply described... The oversized dun-yellow black-taloned Troll...

The NPC or monsters official title was often used in the old days as well...
The Troll of the Mistglen or... The Duke or The Baron, or The Sheriff...

Boss is a term that came into use with CRPG's. The first time I recall it being used, it was used to describe the end-fight in games such as Castle Wolfenstien and Doom back in the 90's. It continues to be used to describe the significant monster or villainous leader especially in CRPG's and MMORPGS.

Mastermind has a newer pedigree. I don't recall seeing that being widely used until the dawn of third edition of D&D when third party d20 publishers began using Mastermind as the term to describe the uber-villain of the module or campaign. I'm not sure there are many MMO's that use Mastermind as a descriptor.

In any event, Boss is a lazy term that takes away from the game. Having colorful villains and memorable fights adds flavor. Simply describing it as a Boss glosses over finer aspects of the npc or monster and changes the focus of the game.

...and Masterminds? You'd never find them in a climatic fight. They are way too smart to get entangled with the players that way.

Quote from: Benoist;332802I believe that "boss" is computer game speech. Not MMO in particular, mind you, but it does come from computer game design in general. Do you agree?

That's where it's gotten the most use with that meaning, but I recall using it while playing D&D way back before computer/video games were all that common in my area (very early 80s).

Also back then, I never - not once - ever used, or heard anyone use, the term "mastermind."

Quote from: jeff37923;332756You are a more stoic man than I. Last time I drank Miller High Life, I threw up.

And how can you not get Fat Tire? They sell it at Wal-Mart here.

The High Life is crisp, clean, and light. I don't know why you'd throw up, unless you simply drank way too much way too fast. It's heavier beers that make me ill.

And Fat Tire isn't distributed here yet. It's been slowly working its way across the country.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332806Boss is a term that came into use with CRPG's. The first time I recall it being used, it was used to describe the end-fight in games such as Castle Wolfenstien and Doom back in the 90's. It continues to be used to describe the significant monster or villainous leader especially in CRPG's and MMORPGS.

As I said above, it may have come into more common usage via CRPGs and the like, but I know I heard it being used in D&D games much , much earlier than the 90s.

According to Wikipedia*, 'The first interactive game to feature a boss was dnd, a 1975 computer role-playing game for the PLATO system.' Whether that is the idea or the term 'Boss' it does not make clear.

*so it at least could be true.

I have played PLATO dnd, but I'm afraid I never got far enough in the dungeon to get to any "boss" like character to confirm.

Koltar you are exceptionally full of shit. I mean more than usual. Boss, mastermind, or big bad. I've heard and used them all. You know what? No one is a more correct usage than the the other. While I do find the biuld a dungeon and trade with the other team a little lame. But its not a bad idea. The adventure itself is of course just encounter, encounter you win type deal. Its designed for newbies. If your expecting a high end campaign your looking in the wrong place. Could they have just ported over some old adventure. Sure, but they tried something new. Besides if they ported over an old module. We'd all be discussing how they fucked up a classic.
In the end all let me quote you in saying, "Broaden your horizons". Judge it on its merits not what you think it should be.

@ColonelHardisson
Ignore the haters, while I dont drink High Life. I get the same reaction when I tell people that I drink PBR.

Quote from: jeff37923;332761It isn't just an encounter, it is an adventure - multiple encounters. The person running the adventure is also not part of the group writing it - which is a big disconnect made larger by the time constraints of this exercise. Go read it again, or just check out the PDF.

I don't know if you're an idiot, being deliberately retarded, or just boldfaced lying about what you read in order to waste my time but I am going to explain in the plainest of English what's going on.

1. Form a team
2. A team chooses a team lead
3. The team decides on a theme
4. The team decides on monsters to use
5. The team chooses a boss
6. The team cuts out the monster stats
7. The team splits into two groups
8. Each team group creates an encounter within 1 hour
9. The team groups puts everything together
10. The team hand the encounters to the team lead
11. The team lead then runs the adventure for another team.
12. Another team lead from another team then runs the adventure that his team created.

Seriously, that's the process. Read the PDF again. How the fuck you misunderstood all of that is ANYONE's guess.

Quote from: Ronin;332827Koltar you are exceptionally full of shit. I mean more than usual. Boss, mastermind, or big bad. I've heard and used them all. You know what? No one is a more correct usage than the the other. While I do find the biuld a dungeon and trade with the other team a little lame. But its not a bad idea. The adventure itself is of course just encounter, encounter you win type deal. Its designed for newbies. If your expecting a high end campaign your looking in the wrong place. Could they have just ported over some old adventure. Sure, but they tried something new. Besides if they ported over an old module. We'd all be discussing how they fucked up a classic.
In the end all let me quote you in saying, "Broaden your horizons". Judge it on its merits not what you think it should be.

@ColonelHardisson
Ignore the haters, while I dont drink High Life. I get the same reaction when I tell people that I drink PBR.

Funny story about PBR.  My father used to drink it back in the 70's when we were kids.  It was known as Pabst Blue Ribbon back then, and was barely a step higher than Schlitz, cheap swill, but still better socially than pounding a 40 on the front porch.  

Anyhow, last week my brother was telling me it was back and all the rage as PBR.  We both had a laugh.  

Today I was over my parent's house helping them clean out 346 years worth of accumulated crap from their storage room for a long awaited yard sale.  I find buried in the detritus a Pabst Blue Ribbon serving tray.  I started laughing, my father looks at what I had and says "Hey give that to your brother next time you see him for his home bar."  My sister says "He would never user it."  Knowing our latest conversation and I kept it to give to him, as he will likely use it just to prove he is a PBR Grognard.

As a young person growing up in the south, I lived in mortal fear of one of my friends challenging the veracity of one of my tales by saying, "Bull!"

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;332820That's where it's gotten the most use with that meaning, but I recall using it while playing D&D way back before computer/video games were all that common in my area (very early 80s).

Also back then, I never - not once - ever used, or heard anyone use, the term "mastermind."

Never heard the term of "mastermind" myself used for D&D BBEGs.

First time I remember hearing about "bosses" may be when I was playing Double Dragon in Arcade gaming joints (mid-late 80s).

The earliest notion of a video game "boss" character I can recall offhand amongst my friends and I, was in the 1982 arcade game Zaxxon.  At the time, we used the term "end guy" when talking about robot Zaxxon.

In our D&D games in those days, we frequently used the term "end guy" instead of "boss".

manufactured outrage.

This is like the dumbest anti 4E thread ever. I don't even mean scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I'm talking about scrapping wood here. I'll ask again, Ed, where is the FORGER/STORYTELLING TERMINOLOGY YOU PROMISED US ! ?

(I prefer BigBad myself. I first heard the term Boss used by arcade jocks in the 80's. Masterminds I didn't come across.)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;332840This is like the dumbest anti 4E thread ever.

It serves the limited utility of separating the wheat from the chaff, as in: people capable of reading and thinking, and ... the rest. I mean, look at this pseudo-discussion on the term "boss". The context in which the word is used was posted, the original document linked, and still it's taken to be viewed from the PC-angle (as in, "the boss monster we encounter at the end of the dungeon") when it clearly isn't. It's the mastermind running the monster team who's also the schemer behind the "theme" i.e. whatever the adventure design team comes up with is re: what the PCs have to uncover and disrupt.

But hey, it's Sunday so why not post the original passage again.

QuoteStep 2A: Pick a Boss

The doomdreamer (good for a hard adventure) and duergar
cleric of Asmodeus (good for an easy or average adventure) make
great “boss villains,” since they’re both leaders and could be the
masterminds behind your theme. The doomdreamer likes to use
the minotaur thugs as muscle, and the duergar cleric often uses
the duergar guards for protection. If your theme doesn’t involve a
leader-type, you don’t have to choose one.

1. The boss is the mastermind behind the "theme" picked in Step 1 referenced in the same document. Hence, it was the boss's idea, for instance, to kidnap the villager. He's also the guy who bosses round the other monsters to get the job done because a proper mastermind doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Which gets us to
2. The boss likes to use the other monsters as his "muscle". That's because he's on top of the command chain.

You may now resume to post entertaining if irrelevant remarks about your Double Dragon computer game experienes and such like. Please refuse to engage with the actual topic at hand, for otherwise this thread has no chance to hit the magical #666 post reserved for Aos. Thank you.

Quote from: Windjammer;332843It serves the limited utility of separating the wheat from the chaff, as in: people capable of reading and thinking, and ... the rest. I mean, look at this pseudo-discussion on the term "boss".

Nah. You read it wrong. First it was how the excercise itself was dodgy. The Boss thing came up because Ed, didn't have anything better to hang his rant on - it's called mastermind not Boss !. It's pretty pointless posting the bit you did, because that was never the issue. Which brings us back to....either have a fucking issue or don't bother having a 4E rant.

Regards,
David R

Its also called Evil Overlord or Villain, not 'Boss'.

Thank you GameDaddy and 1 or 2 others.

I KNEW there was a better word from my youth of reading comic books and hanging around gaming groups that would make more sense.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;332846Its also called Evil Overlord or Villain, not 'Boss'.

Thank you GameDaddy and 1 or 2 others.

I KNEW there was a better word from my youth of reading comic books and hanging around gaming groups that would make more sense.


- Ed C.

"It" has been called a hell of a lot of things over the years. Boss is as good a name as any, and I've heard it used from the later 80's on. The only time I've seen mastermind thrown out as a catch-all term is with Top Secret, or the old James Bond rpg.  

You're not getting a lot of traction out of your weird little compulsion, here.

If you keep complaining, the others in the thread are just going to keep laying the DPS on you, dude. Seriously.

This solves absolutely nothing so of course I am going to say it.

Wasn't the evil mastermind in the Pool Of Radiance CRPG called "The Boss"?

Some people love to obsess over minutiae of very little to no value, except to themselves.

A weird case of this I'm aware of, is some guy I know who likes to collect subway transfers and bus schedules + maps.  I have no idea why this is his obsession.

Quote from: David R;332840This is like the dumbest anti 4E thread ever. I don't even mean scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I'm talking about scrapping wood here. I'll ask again, Ed, where is the FORGER/STORYTELLING TERMINOLOGY YOU PROMISED US ! ?

(I prefer BigBad myself. I first heard the term Boss used by arcade jocks in the 80's. Masterminds I didn't come across.)

Regards,
David R

Completely agree.  If 'Boss' is the language of the younger generation of gamers I would even go so far as to say that its a smart move to use the term.  Sure it jars a fraction with me because of my age but so what?

While the team trust thing sounds a bit wanky the ideas behind this document nicely showcase one of the major design 4E principles, which is to make running the game much easier than ever before.

Now I have been pretty vocal with my dislike of 4E in other threads but I have to admire how WOTC have succeeded in delivering a version of D&D that is almost capable of running itself.  The players are told how to design and play their characters (roles) and the DM is given incredibly simple building blocks for putting together adventures.  Yet, in the intricacy of combat the game is anything but simple, allowing plenty of clever, tactical play. More than any other edition.

It will never be the game for me because that is not what I'm looking for but nor is it a steaming pile of shit like some would like to claim.

Quote from: Koltar;332846Its also called Evil Overlord or Villain, not 'Boss'.

Thank you GameDaddy and 1 or 2 others.

I KNEW there was a better word from my youth of reading comic books and hanging around gaming groups that would make more sense.


- Ed C.

Are you still haning your hat on that idiocy? Any of them are correct you dolt. Much like soft drinks being refered to as soda, pop, or coke depending on what part of the US/world you live in. If you are really hell bent on proper terminology and correct use of the english language. You should probably be using the term Antagonist or perhaps Adversary.

I'm with the 4bots on this one.  There is plenty to point at which distinguishes 4E from D&D or even RPGs at all, but the use of "boss" isn't an issue worht mentioning.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;332829I don't know if you're an idiot, being deliberately retarded, or just boldfaced lying about what you read in order to waste my time but I am going to explain in the plainest of English what's going on.

Like your time is precious or you are anything but a monkey's shit covered ass. No matter how you rearrange the words, it still doesn't make how this exercise gets implemented any less dodgy.

And just to short-circuit the usual claims of anti-4E, I don't think this exercise would work with any RPG. It might work with a tactical boardgame, but it deliberately hinders any adventure creating process and implementation for a RPG.

I say, Geoffry, you're interrupting a perfectly good dogpile.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;3328291. Form a team
2. A team chooses a team lead
3. The team decides on a theme
4. The team decides on monsters to use
5. The team chooses a boss
6. The team cuts out the monster stats
7. The team splits into two groups
8. Each team group creates an encounter within 1 hour
9. The team groups puts everything together
10. The team hand the encounters to the team lead
11. The team lead then runs the adventure for another team.
12. Another team lead from another team then runs the adventure that his team created.

Seriously, that's the process. Read the PDF again. How the fuck you misunderstood all of that is ANYONE's guess.

Thats the problem - all of those steps is the WORST way to make an adventure of game session scenario.
Half-assed crap is not made into any better crap just because a committee or 'team' was involved.
An adenture is normally written amnd created by one person - either a DungeonMastrer(GameMaster) or a game designer that wrote a book that the DM has to adapt to his/her players.  Its not a committe exercise in 'team building'.
Thats where the "forge-think" in this crap comes into - the 'everyone can DM!" . No they can't. Really, its just like not every actor who thinks they want to direct will actually be a good director.

 I really don't need socialist tendencies in my gaming. That part is not a group exercise.
 The actual playing of an adventure IS.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;332902T
An adbenture is normally written amnd created by one person - either a DungeonMastrer(GameMaster) or a game designer that wrote a book that the DM has to adapt to his/her players.  Its not a committe exercise in 'team building'.
Thats where the "forge-think" in this crap comes into - the 'everyone can DM!" . No they can't. Reallky, its just like not every actor who thinks they want to direct will actually be a good director.

 I really don't need socialist tendencies in my gaming. That part is not a group exercise. .


- Ed C.

adbeunture- it's like an Rpg- but for socialists! Reallky!

Quote from: Aos;332903adbeunture- it's like an Rpg- but for socialists! Reallky!

Aos - wait for post #666!!

 Its a fucking typo or two because I don't have enough caffeine in me and my hunt & peck fingers stumble on the keyboard.

Shut up and roll your dice.


- Ed C.

The dice belong to the state.

Quote from: Koltar;332616What the hell is a "Shadowfell" anyway??

I'm still trying to get a good description or feel for that in the D&D game that I'm in.

What is it? - spooky 'jump space' realm like in TRAVELLER - just for D&D worlds tho ?

- Ed C.

I strongly encourage you to read throug a copy of Open Grave.  It's probably the best written of the 4e books, and gives a very solid description of shadowfell.

Quote from: Aos;332901I say, Geoffry, you're interrupting a perfectly good dogpile.

I know, and I really hate to point out the turd in the punchbowl at the party while everyone is getting a drink.

Quote from: Koltar;332902Thats where the "forge-think" in this crap comes into - the 'everyone can DM!" . No they can't. Really, its just like not every actor who thinks they want to direct will actually be a good director.

Maybe this is WotC's intention all along.  They want to make DMing into a simple formula, that even an idiot can follow trivially.

By the time WotC (or their successors) has figured out that DMing can't be done so easily and trivially, people like me, Koltar, and others on therpgsite, dragonsfoot, etc ... will be either dead or our minds will have been ravaged by Alzheimers.  ;)  At that point, it's not our problem anymore.

Quote from: Aos;332903adbeunture- it's like an Rpg- but for socialists! Reallky!

4e - The Socialist RPG.

An adventure is more than just a series of encounters.

An adventure is best designed by a single GM for their particular players, with their characters in mind. Makes it more interesting.

Team exercises to teach people who to build encounters and run them sound like good steps for WotC.  The more people who know how to run 4e, the more likely they can build 4e groups.   All groups are built around the DM and if you have multiple DMs in a group, the less likely you will have DM fatigue set in.

Quote from: Koltar;332616What the hell is a "Shadowfell" anyway?

Land of Undeath.  

Quote from: Koltar;332626They're not 'Bosses" damnit - they're called masterminds!!

In Spycraft.   Boss Monster is like 1980s old terminology.

Quote from: Koltar;332626Let me guess, WotC guys, HASBRO giving you pressure to make it sound like WoW because they think thats what sells?

Uh...yeah.

Back when D&D arrived in 1974, everything was shorthanded into "It's like LotR, Hobbit, Conan, Elric, etc." because that was the fantasy media known and understood by the target audience.

Welcome to 2009.   Teen & Adult media are movies and video games.   And WoW is the biggest dog on the entire block.  

Quote from: ggroy;332628Wonder if they have done any recent market surveys which determined that gamers over age 25 are not a viable market for them anymore.

I suspect the market data shows that you have gamers who change editions and those who will not.  Thus, you focus efforts on those willing to change and new customers.

Also, as a market ages, the less likely they will voluntarily adapt to new changes.  Thus, the prime customer are the younger ones.  

Quote from: Nazgul;332661Or you could just break out B1 In Search of the Unknown and be done with it.... How hard would that be to port over to 4th?(I don't own 4th ed, so it's a real question)

It could be done.

Quote from: Koltar;332902Thats where the "forge-think" in this crap comes into - the 'everyone can DM!" . No they can't. Really, its just like not every actor who thinks they want to direct will actually be a good director.

Really? This where the Forge think comes into it ? Everyone can GM......

Listen my little fascist, anyone can GM. If your players are having fun and keep coming back for more, you're doing a good job as a GM - even if someone on the outside looking in thinks your GMing stinks.

Designing an adventure by committee, does not really work IME but this is for some convention shit or something, so who really gives a fuck.

Are where is that Forge terminology you promised us or are you just hoping folks come up with their own hateons ? I mean first it was the Boss nonsense...

Regards,
David R

Definitely heard them called boss monsters well before WOW or any MMORPG.  In fact, pretty sure I read that term in an AD&D module.

Never heard them called Masterminds.  That sounds like a term from another game entirely.

Pretty lame rant Koltar, even for you.

Quote from: Spinachcat;332922I suspect the market data shows that you have gamers who change editions and those who will not.  Thus, you focus efforts on those willing to change and new customers.

Also, as a market ages, the less likely they will voluntarily adapt to new changes.  Thus, the prime customer are the younger ones.

WotC probably knows very well that they can get away with giving the proverbial "middle finger" to the 1E and 2E AD&D grognards, with very little to no significant market repercussions.

Don't know if they can do that yet to the 3E/3.5E "grognards" with impunity, without any significant market backlash.  Paizo seems to have been capitalizing on this market backlash (whether real or imagined), however large or small it is.

Quote from: Mistwell;332927Pretty lame rant Koltar, even for you.

I don't know, your own attention whoring rants about this very forum that you posted on Circvs Maximvs were pretty much the epitome of spineless wankerism.

Quote from: Koltar;332904Aos - wait for post #666!!

 Its a fucking typo or two because I don't have enough caffeine in me and my hunt & peck fingers stumble on the keyboard.

Shut up and roll your dice.


- Ed C.

Yeah because I've never seen you bust on someone for a spelling mistake.:rolleyes: Sucks when something that goes around comes around, dont it?

Quote from: Aos;332905The dice belong to the state.

"While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State."
State and Revolution (1919)

Quote from: jeff37923;332930I don't know, your own attention whoring rants about this very forum that you posted on Circvs Maximvs were pretty much the epitome of spineless wankerism.

You may (or may not) be pleased to know that when I repost a post from here over there, I generally PM the person here to let them know that I am posting it over there, in case they want to comment or respond.  I certainly don't see it as attention whoring (you're the first to mention it - so if it was for attention, it was a pretty poor method don't you think?) nor do I see it as spineless (I wouldn't PM them, and sign my real name, if I were spineless about it).

Nevertheless, what does your post have to do with what I actually said? Sure seems like a distraction.

Quote from: David R;332925Really? This where the Forge think comes into it ? Everyone can GM......

Listen my little fascist, anyone can GM. If your players are having fun and keep coming back for more, you're doing a good job as a GM - even if someone on the outside looking in thinks your GMing stinks.

Designing an adventure by committee, does not really work IME but this is for some convention shit or something, so who really gives a fuck.

Are where is that Forge terminology you promised us or are you just hoping folks come up with their own hateons ? I mean first it was the Boss nonsense...

Regards,
David R

Let me give a ditto to this.
Further more while anyone can GM/DM. Not everybody is good at it. But those sort of thing tend to well sort them selves out.
Now this adventure by commitee non-sense. I think that WotC has a method to their madness. I refer to Jeffs post

Quote from: Jeff37923And just to short-circuit the usual claims of anti-4E, I don't think this exercise would work with any RPG. It might work with a tactical boardgame, but it deliberately hinders any adventure creating process and implementation for a RPG.

4E has a lot of tactical board game elements. Now in a lot of tactical board games there is a round, turn, or what have you. Where you place terrain, and/or troops. Is this community adventure design not just a further extension of this? I'm not inferring that that is how they think a game should be played. But perhaps a way of rapidly assembling a pick up game? Or perhaps just an outright experiment on their part?

I don't think the actual product of adventure design by committee is going to be any good, but I can see value in the process of proto GMs actually sitting down and discussing how they would do things.

It strikes me that 4E was designed on the assumption that most DMs are not very good, or possibly most starting DMs are not very good (and that is who they are targetting).

Who knows? they might be right :eek:

Quote from: Mistwell;332940You may (or may not) be pleased to know that when I repost a post from here over there, I generally PM the person here to let them know that I am posting it over there, in case they want to comment or respond.  I certainly don't see it as attention whoring (you're the first to mention it - so if it was for attention, it was a pretty poor method don't you think?) nor do I see it as spineless (I wouldn't PM them, and sign my real name, if I were spineless about it).

Mistwell did. I didn't mention anything about it earlier, cause it wasn't worth it at the time. Anything that is posted here is archived by the major search engines. It's part of the "Cloud" and is accessible hereafter as a public record.  

http://surchur.com/all/dungeons+and+dragons (http://surchur.com/all/dungeons+and+dragons)

Much bigger news at the moment from the technorati blogs is the lawsuit directed at Turbine (DDO Online) and Blizzard (WoW), and NCSoft (Aion). Microsoft already settled for Halo 3, but MMORPGs are in the crosshairs at the moment.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332947Mistwell did. I didn't mention anything about it earlier, cause it wasn't worth it at the time.

It still isn't worth it now. Mistwell's actions do not detract from his douchebaggery of whining about this site on other sites for the sole purpose of quelling dissent against ENWorld. Even the ENWorld mods came over here and acted better than that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332947Mistwell did. I didn't mention anything about it earlier, cause it wasn't worth it at the time.

It still isn't worth it now. That does not erase the douchebaggery of the past.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332947Much bigger news at the moment from the technorati blogs is the lawsuit directed at Turbine (DDO Online) and Blizzard (WoW), and NCSoft (Aion). Microsoft already settled for Halo 3, but MMORPGs are in the crosshairs at the moment.

And these are important why?

If the price on MMORPGs are pushed up to a level that players there aren't willing to support, We'll likely see a new influx of gamers looking for some affordable tabletop action. I find that real interesting.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332953If the price on MMORPGs are pushed up to a level that players there aren't willing to support, We'll likely see a new influx of gamers looking for some affordable tabletop action. I find that real interesting.

Got links?

http://kotaku.com/5361205/turbine-swept-up-in-infringement-lawsuit

and...

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25146

and very relevant...

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25282

Any settlement would be passed down the chain on to the players in the form of higher monthly fees, that is if the company survived. I think Blizzard could survive a $90 Mill hit (What Microsoft was sued for). Don't know about the others though. When it costs too much to game, where you gonna get your fix?

Quote from: GameDaddy;332955Any settlement would be passed down the chain on to the players in the form of higher monthly fees, that is if the company survived. I think Blizzard could survive a $90 Mill hit (What Microsoft was sued for). Don't know about the others though. When it costs too much to game, where you gonna get your fix?

Probably from a game software company that didn't steal someone else's patented intellectual property. I don't think this will affect tabletop gaming at all.

Quote from: jeff37923;332952It still isn't worth it now. That does not erase the douchebaggery of the past.

You're the one who called attention to it though, so why are you bitching about the very thing you did?  And you called it spineless, and attention whoring, neither of which was accurate.  And rather than acknowledge that, you've turned into a moving target, resorting to generic unprovoked insults.  He was not upset over it, so why are you whiteknighting him?  I was not calling attention to it, so why are you?

Quote from: jeff37923;332957Probably from a game software company that didn't steal someone else's patented intellectual property. I don't think this will affect tabletop gaming at all.

???

They just sued the gaming companies that have a 90%+ share of all MMORPGs. Everquest. World Of Warcraft. DDO Online. LOTR Online, and Runescape, the as yet unreleased Aion,  and of course already settled for Halo. They have a precedent. That's a slam dunk for any decent legal team.

That means it'll cost more to play those games. Much more if they get a big settlement. If the game companies decide to still offer the games at all. (I see Blizzard settling, they are big enough to roll with it.)

How does tabletop gaming not get affected by this scenario? Which other MMORPGs are going to fill the gap?

Tbh, WoW and Lineage are the only real mass online games, and Blizzard will settle and Linage will ignore it if they try and sue. Sony might just settle too, they certainly can afford too. What will not happen under any circumstances is a price rise if its going to lead to less income (and either Blizzard or Sony dropping their MMORPGs line is simply unthinkable).

That lawsuit won't go anywhere.  Anyone dreaming of this being the death knell of the MMO is fucking delusional.

These kinds of patent trolls come and go on an almost monthly basis, and every one of them either gets buried in legal wrangling that never resolves or gets dropped, or settles for a pittance.  

If you're looking for some sort of lawsuit to get your edition war hackles up over, you should really be looking at the Turbine vs. Atari suit over whether Atari breached contract by pursuing their rumored NWN 4e MMO.

EDIT:  However, it's pretty obvious to me, given the sudden complete lack of inthread context for the posts from some of the people here, that the conversation at present isn't about MMO suits at all, but a couple people's wierd crossboard squabble, and I might suggest they take said squabbles to PM or email or whatever board they came from.

This thread was incoherent enough as it is without people engaging in conversations that don't seem to have even started on this board.

Quote from: Mistwell;332958I was not calling attention to it, so why are you?

Because shitbag, you had the temerity to attempt to elevate your behavior in ranting above Koltar's, when you are no better.

You shilled for ENWorld, attempted to improve your position on that forum by trying to denigrate this one on ENWorld's daughter forum of Circvs Maximvs.

Fuck off, hypocrite.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332959???

They just sued the gaming companies that have a 90%+ share of all MMORPGs. Everquest. World Of Warcraft. DDO Online. LOTR Online, and Runescape, the as yet unreleased Aion,  and of course already settled for Halo. They have a precedent. That's a slam dunk for any decent legal team.

That means it'll cost more to play those games. Much more if they get a big settlement. If the game companies decide to still offer the games at all. (I see Blizzard settling, they are big enough to roll with it.)

So what?

Quote from: GameDaddy;332959How does tabletop gaming not get affected by this scenario?

By not being economically wedded to MMORPGs.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332959Which other MMORPGs are going to fill the gap?

Who cares? MMORPGs are not tabletop RPGs nor are they so interconnected that the RPG industry would be hurt by this lawsuit.

Victory! :cool:

QuoteWhat is "shadowfell"?

Quote from: Mistwell;332906I strongly encourage you to read throug a copy of Open Grave.  It's probably the best written of the 4e books, and gives a very solid description of shadowfell.

Actually, the first time "shadowfell" was referenced in this thread (and that was the reference that triggered the question), it wasn't to the plane but the introductory module H1 "Keep on the Shadowfell". Everyone can download a free copy at WotC' webpage; it even comes with improved sections to make the adventure more coherent (e.g. the "boss" makes an immaterial early appearance to foreshadow the PC's final confrontation with him; originally, they just blundered into his room, realizing in round 1 of combat that he actually was the BBEG). Personally I think it actually better to get a newbie DM that free module, get him familiar with running the game, and then let him roam freely thereafter to create follow-up session material; instead of this templated session planning.

Back to "shadowfell" - even if the plane, and not the module, had been intended, I'd hardly recommend Open Grave as the best source on that. That honor would go to the 4E Manual of the Planes. While I think that book is abysmal in parts (and hardly a match for Open Grave in terms of overall value), I certainly liked the section on the Shadowfell, and that eery town they created in it (Gloom- something) which is like a Venice in twilight (twilight as in NightWatch).

Even free, the price is too high for H1!  Its shitfulness is right up there with the worst of the 2E modules.

Quote from: David R;332925Designing an adventure by committee, does not really work IME but this is for some convention shit or something, so who really gives a fuck.

It was a simple exercise intended to give everyone participating a small taste of adventure-building, and to show them that -- at least in the respect of balancing encounters -- it's not that hard. I doubt anyone expected the adventures produced to be story-driven epics. But then that was hardly the point. "This is how you make balanced encounters. This is how you play out those encounters." seems to be it. It's like training wheels, but I really have no problem with that since it was directed at n00bs.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;333012It was a simple exercise intended to give everyone participating a small taste of adventure-building, and to show them that -- at least in the respect of balancing encounters -- it's not that hard. I doubt anyone expected the adventures produced to be story-driven epics. But then that was hardly the point. "This is how you make balanced encounters. This is how you play out those encounters." seems to be it. It's like training wheels, but I really have no problem with that since it was directed at n00bs.

This is what got Ed's knickers in a twist ?

Jeebus, I miss the brawls between Stormbringer and Pseudoephedrine.

Regards,
David R

Well, as the hopeful positive capstone to this stupidity, I just want to say that I think anyone and everyone can GM, and everyone should at least give it a try, even if they never settle on it.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;333017Well, as the hopeful positive capstone to this stupidity, I just want to say that I think anyone and everyone can GM, and everyone should at least give it a try, even if they never settle on it.

Agreed. Anyone can DM, though some are certainly better than others. Part of the OP's rage seems to be that DMing is supposed to be reserved for the elite of gamer society. Which is bullshit.

We're actively doing this in one of my groups right now. We've had four different DMs for the last four campaigns, two of whom had never DMed before. But they wanted to try it. One of them I doubt will do it again, he didn't enjoy it very much. But his game was fun, from our side of the screen.

Quote from: David R;333014This is what got Ed's knickers in a twist ?

Jeebus, I miss the brawls between Stormbringer and Pseudoephedrine.

Regards,
David R

This discussion thread sort of reminds me of several hardcore 1E AD&D grognards with whom I've gamed with over the years, who have a really "elitist" mentality about DM'ing.  As far as they're concerned, they think they're the only ones who have the "god given" right to DM 1E AD&D, and that anybody else who doesn't have their background is a dilettante or a completely unworthy amateur.

In practice, several of these particular 1E AD&D grognards are completely horrible as DMs in general.  One particular grognard has absolutely no understanding of how pacing works, where they would spend an entire 5 hour session on the party setting up camp and sleeping for an evening, or three 5 hour sessions on traveling between two nearby towns.  Another grognard would spend 10 or 15 minutes at a time in the middle of a game scrounging through the 1E AD&D books PHB, DMG, UA, Dragon Magazine articles, etc ..., whenever they didn't know what the rule was for doing something.  This happened frequently enough that the players were doing other things like playing video games, watching tv, netsurfing, reading a novel, etc ... for a large portion of the game session.

In the end, these particular grognards' DM elitism was largely a figment of their own imaginations out their own minds and "echo chambers" of other like minded grognards.  They were essentially believing in their own and one another's bullshit, while they were completely oblivious as to why their games were a huge revolving door churn of players and/or they don't understand why their previous players have very little to no interest in playing in their greatest "gift from god" 1E AD&D games.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333026Agreed. Anyone can DM, though some are certainly better than others. Part of the OP's rage seems to be that DMing is supposed to be reserved for the elite of gamer society. Which is bullshit.

This seems to be a very popular "complaint" over the years by hardcore DM elitist types I have met and known in person.  I remember shortly after 2E AD&D was released, some of my "elitist" DM'ing friends who had overinflated opinions of their own DM'ing abilities and prowess, complained that the 2E PHB and DMG completely "dumbed" down DM'ing to the point that any idiot can now DM an AD&D game.  It was as if they thought it was the "end" of their world.

The 4E D&D DMG and DMG2 books would probably give these particular "elitist DM" friends a heart attack if they ever read them.  ;)

Quote from: jadrax;332943I don't think the actual product of adventure design by committee is going to be any good, but I can see value in the process of proto GMs actually sitting down and discussing how they would do things.

This strikes me as exactly right. The process looks likes it aims to de-mystify the role of Dungeon Master and open gaming up a little. At the very least more people get an opportunity to decide if that's a role they want to play. And at one DM/ref/Storyteller per table, the number of them is a kind of sales choke point.

Quote from: GameDaddy;332955Any settlement would be passed down the chain on to the players in the form of higher monthly fees, that is if the company survived. I think Blizzard could survive a $90 Mill hit (What Microsoft was sued for). Don't know about the others though. When it costs too much to game, where you gonna get your fix?

Keep in mind that there is no indication that Microsoft paid anything like $90 million. The suit was for $90 million, but the settlement was out-of-court and not disclosed. That also probably means it's not precedent-setting. I doubt MMOs are in any kind of serious trouble.

Quote from: Halfjack;333040Keep in mind that there is no indication that Microsoft paid anything like $90 million. The suit was for $90 million, but the settlement was out-of-court and not disclosed. That also probably means it's not precedent-setting. I doubt MMOs are in any kind of serious trouble.

If such an amount of cash was paid out by the defendant company, I wonder how much of it will be a tax writeoff for them.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333026One of them I doubt will do it again, he didn't enjoy it very much. But his game was fun, from our side of the screen.

I had one of those once.

He's MUCH happier as a player, but I liked playing his game (he was running Dragonlance: The Fifth Age)...

Unfortunately, I have been plagued with a bunch of GMs who like to play politics (hosing one player because they have some out of game issue with someone else), don't bother reading the rules and just make everything up as they go along...without any sense of even internal logic...or GMs who feel they need to "beat" the players.

This is why it has now been a long time since I have played instead of GMed.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;333017Well, as the hopeful positive capstone to this stupidity, I just want to say that I think anyone and everyone can GM, and everyone should at least give it a try, even if they never settle on it.

I agree with this. Once you took the learning curve and feel comfortable with the game, you should think about running the game yourself at some point, just to try it out from the other side of the screen. If that's not your thing, at least you'll know for sure. If it is your thing, you'll have a lot of fun with it. It's Win-Win for your game table.

Quote from: ggroy;333034This seems to be a very popular "complaint" over the years by hardcore DM elitist types I have met and known in person.  I remember shortly after 2E AD&D was released, some of my "elitist" DM'ing friends who had overinflated opinions of their own DM'ing abilities and prowess, complained that the 2E PHB and DMG completely "dumbed" down DM'ing to the point that any idiot can now DM an AD&D game.  It was as if they thought it was the "end" of their world.

The 4E D&D DMG and DMG2 books would probably give these particular "elitist DM" friends a heart attack if they ever read them.  ;)

I can speak from experience that not any idiot can DM an AD&D game, specifically from 2E.  Months into other people's games, I was still explaining the rules to them (they came to me, sometimes when I was playing and sometimes not), and still saw all kinds of fun-killing railroady stuff.

(Did I ever tell you about the time I was frozen in my tracks by a six foot tall halfling because I wanted to go west instead of north?  This was the beginning of the game, I had no adventure hook to follow, was basically left floating sandbox style, and was apparently going "the wrong way").

Hell, I saw people manage to ROYALLY screw up the Challenge Rating system of 3E (they put a high level NPC with low level players, bad sign already, used THAT to justify hitting them with - I believe - an older dragon, then had the NPC do nothing to help them, leading to mass slaughter).

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;333055I can speak from experience that not any idiot can DM an AD&D game, specifically from 2E.  Months into other people's games, I was still explaining the rules to them (they came to me, sometimes when I was playing and sometimes not), and still saw all kinds of fun-killing railroady stuff.

I've never played 2E AD&D before.  Though from reading the 2E PHB and DMG books, I never got the impression that it made DMing trivially easy.

My 1E AD&D "grognard" friends who complained about 2E "dumbing down" DM'ing to the point of idiocy, were the types who loved to complain about anything and everything which didn't go their way.  Their intentions and rants were largely the equivalent of uninformed "demagoguery", as a way of boosting their own fragile egos and how much of their personal identities were tied up in how they viewed their DM'ing abilities and prowess.  Even today, these same particular grognard friends still behave like they are 12 year olds when it comes to tabletop pnp rpg games.

The first use of the term "boss" in a D&D context I could find on rec.games.frp.dnd was from a November 24, 2004 post:

low-level boss fight
 (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.frp.dnd/msg/bd900ab5f547ca2f)
Which seems a bit late to me. First use of "tank," "buff," and "aggro" all seem to occur between November 24 and December 2004.

Release date for WoW? November 23, 2004.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;333053This is why it has now been a long time since I have played instead of GMed.

I KNOW that feeling. Thats also why I know the Game Day kit was bullshit.  
Making an adventure session is not a committee exercise.

One person writes an adventure for a DM toi use ..then its used with a group of players.

What would've made sense is if they had sent out a REAL written-up adventure with the nice pretty map and free miniatures, and 6 ad/promo sheets for D&D brand label Jones Cola (What was up with that - it seemed a tad excessive).
 Then had the DM run it.
Afterwards he shows the players Designer's notes on other ideas and rough drafts on the written adventure.
When writers show the 'paths not taken' or almost tried - thats for more illustrative of the process than a team exercise in group think.


- Ed C.

Ed, how the hell is this "group think" ? According to GeekEclectic is was just an excercise to give some new players a taste of creating adventures. Some hands on experience so to speak. So what if they were engaging with each other in a group. Look these new players go home and create adventures by themselves using what they learnt for this workshop or whatever. That's good, right? Seriously Ed, what gives?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Koltar;333060I KNOW that feeling. Thats also why I know the Game Day kit was bullshit.  
Making an adventure session is not a committee exercise.

How many AD&D/D&D modules were designed by a committee?

Quote from: Benoist;333054I agree with this. Once you took the learning curve and feel comfortable with the game, you should think about running the game yourself at some point, just to try it out from the other side of the screen. If that's not your thing, at least you'll know for sure. If it is your thing, you'll have a lot of fun with it. It's Win-Win for your game table.

Couldn't agree more.

Quote from: ggroy;333065How many AD&D/D&D modules were designed by a committee?

Don't you know that real adventures spring fully-formed from the minds of divine DMs?

Yow, even fans of 4/e D&D or D&D in general on TPB agree with me indirectly that it sucked. :

QuoteSome guy named Naniwa said : I ran it and it kind of sucked. The group who made our adventure spent an extra hour working on it, and then when they gave it to us, they had only placed monsters and written a sketchy scenario. We ended up playing through it and making it into an MST3K type experience, which ended up being really hilarious.

I just think it was a bad idea. There were quite a few kids who had barely played d&d before, and they had no interest whatsoever in making encounters. And it seemed like one player or DM in each group ended up writing the whole thing.

From this thread page:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=474219&page=2


- Ed C.

Ed, I'm not going to look at the purple thread to see the contexts you pulled the quotes from. Suffice it to say that even if one agrees with them (as I'm inclined to) that's a long shot from endorsing your opinion.

See, what I see these people saying is that the "Let's build two encounters by a Worksheet" approach was a stupid idea for a Game Day Event. As I predicted upthread, these things make for the sort of situation where a lot of groups end up either not producing anything worthwhile at all, or one guy ends up doing the whole thing by himself because people turned up to consume a game, not to volunteer their own stuff.

As for the "Not everyone can DM" approach apparently attached to a segment of the 1E AD&D crowd, I wish I had my copy of the Hackmaster GM Guide on me. I've always taken that as an unabashed transcription of Gygax' actual intentions when writing the 1E DMG. Roughly, the Hackmaster GM starts out like this (if my poor memory may serve for now).

QuoteWelcome friend or, dare I say it, esteemed colleague. You have found your way here, and that itself is indication of your superior intellect.

Truly, not everyone can DM. According to our calculations at Hard8 Enterprises, only 0.005% of the world's population can comprehend the genius that is the Hackmaster game, and only 0.0005% thereof have the wits to GM it. (Less if we didn't provide a translation.)

It then goes on to say just how much it takes to be a proper GM, and that most people who try fail at it terribly; and how Hard8 requires these people to admit their failing and step back lest they disgrace the guild of true GMs.
I hope I'll trace up the original at one point in the future (vastly more enjoyable to read, and also even more hyperbolic, if you can believe that).

For what it's worth, the 3E DMG (both incarnations) contained a strikingly similar line.

QuoteYou’re a member of a select group. Truly not everyone has the creativity and the dedication to be a Dungeon Master.

Quote from: Koltar;333071Yow, even fans of 4/e D&D or D&D in general on TPB agree with me indirectly that it sucked. :

Wow, now you're going to rpg.net for validation?

Besides, your point (IIRC) wasn't that the idea or the implementation sucked. It was that the forgie and MMO terminology made it suck. Now that it's clear no such terminology was used, you're running from that?

Quote from: David R;333064Seriously Ed, what gives?

I told you. I'm being completely serious. He's looking for a windmill of his own.

Seanchai

I truly believe that not everyone has the creativity and/or dedication to be a GM.
Does that make me an elitist? I don't really think so.

Not everyone is cut out to play guitar and engage in solos for the band. It doesn't stop me from wishing everyone would try a bunch of instruments at some point, to see if that's their thing or not. If that's their thing, they will play music and I'll have something to listen to, someone to play with, and/or more variety in local bands. If not, that's fine too. At least they will know it's not their thing.

I don't think it's elitism. It's factual.

Quote from: Benoist;333080I truly believe that not everyone has the creativity and/or dedication to be a GM.
Does that make me an elitist? I don't really think so.

Not everyone has the creativity and dedication needed to be a good full-time DM. Anyone can run a session or two. Presumably this kit was to encourage people to try their hand at running a session. No big deal.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333082Not everyone has the creativity and dedication needed to be a good full-time DM. Anyone can run a session or two. Presumably this kit was to encourage people to try their hand at running a session. No big deal.

Agreed. Never seen the kit personally, so I can't judge the contents.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333082..................... Anyone can run a session or two. ....................

No, they can't.

 Thats just not true.

Gaming is not a Harrison Bergeron exercise in making everybody equal or believing they have equal abilities and talents.

- Ed C.




For those who might not know the reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

I think that, with the right advice, and the right people to push, anyone can run a few sessions. I know, because this is what happened in my last campaign. My better half took on the DMing responsibilities for a few sessions, and it was a blast. I don't really think that's her favorite side of the screen, but she wants to run Grimm for me now. We haven't gotten around to it yet.

Quote from: Koltar;333086No, they can't.

 Thats just not true.

Gaming is not a Harrison Bergeron exercise in making everybody equal or believing they have equal abilities and talents.

- Ed C.




For those who might not know the reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Hey thanks for quoting the Pundit quoting someone famous. But everyone can run a game. Thats not to say everyone will do worth a shit or be a good DM. But they can run a game. Some people might even surprise you. Being far better than you expected. Who the fuck are you to judge who can DM and who can not? Who made you commissar grognard of gaming?

Quote from: Ronin;333091Who the fuck are you to judge who can DM and who can not? Who made you commissar grognard of gaming?

Some people perform a mind meld with Gary Gygax every evening through a Ouija Board, to get eternal godly wisdom about who can DM and who cannot.  ;)

Quote from: Koltar;333086No, they can't.

 Thats just not true.

Gaming is not a Harrison Bergeron exercise in making everybody equal or believing they have equal abilities and talents.

That's a wilful misrepresentation of my posts. It has nothing to do with everyone being equal. I stated plainly that some people are better than others at running games, and that some people lack the tools needed to run a long-term game. Running a session or two? Anyone can do it. Or to be more precise, anyone with an interest in the RPG being run can do it. The point is, DMing a session just isn't that difficult.

I know a lot of DMs believe that they're special snowflakes because of their god-given talents, and that not just any rube can take up the viking-hatted mantle of the mighty DM. But that's just not true.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333077Wow, now you're going to rpg.net for validation?

Many people love to cherry pick information that supports their own particular point of view and/or argument, while discounting or outright ignoring information which does not support their own point of view and/or argument.  It's human nature.

It is better known as the confirmation bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Quote from: ggroy;333100Many people love to cherry pick information that supports their own particular point of view and/or argument, while discounting or outright ignoring information which does not support their own point of view and/or argument.  It's human nature.

It is better known as the confirmation bias.

Oh yes, I just though it was particularly strange to use rpg.net as support on this forum.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333097Running a session or two? Anyone can do it. Or to be more precise, anyone with an interest in the RPG being run can do it.

Or even more to the point, anyone should get to try running a game, right? Who could argue with that?

So I read that little pamphlet. It's linked upthread. Honestly, it reads like six pages of Fuck This, so I can understand the initial reaction Koltar had, in spirit if not in specifics, but it also reads a lot like other 4e material so I might not be the best judge of the audience. The role of the document is sort of confusing, though. The four pages of content are purely introductory stuff, like, My Second D&D Adventure. But, the cards assume you are pretty familiar with the system, or at least you're good at figuring out combat systems – you may not have run anything before but you know what combat advantage is, what exactly "dazed" means, what Dungeoneering does, etc. So it's kind of for newbies but not? I can see why it might not have been a big hit.

Quote from: jeff37923;332968Because shitbag, you had the temerity to attempt to elevate your behavior in ranting above Koltar's, when you are no better.

You shilled for ENWorld, attempted to improve your position on that forum by trying to denigrate this one on ENWorld's daughter forum of Circvs Maximvs.

Fuck off, hypocrite.

You're behaving pretty foolishly.

Essentially you are saying I cannot criticize a post by someone here, because I have reposted a post from someone else to another board (and letting them know I was doing that).  It's a completely asinine claim.

HOW did I "elevate my position" on CM by reposting a post from here?  How is that "Shilling for EnWorld" (which isn't even where I posted it)? And how is my criticizing Koltar's opinion a hypocritical thing to do if I reposted someone else's post to CM?

Seriously, your claims makes no sense at all.  I doubt they even make sense to you, and certainly not to anyone else.

Is it really too much to ask that you actually try and make a point with all this blather?

Quote from: Halfjack;333040Keep in mind that there is no indication that Microsoft paid anything like $90 million. The suit was for $90 million, but the settlement was out-of-court and not disclosed. That also probably means it's not precedent-setting. I doubt MMOs are in any kind of serious trouble.

Like I said, this isn't even the most recent "but that would effect every online game in the world!" patent troll to go after MMOs, it's just the first one in a while with the stones enough to go after the big boys.

Personally, I'm waiting for all these bogus patent trolls to get enough ill-gotten settlement money to start suing each other.

Quote from: Koltar;333086No, they can't.

 Thats just not true.

Gaming is not a Harrison Bergeron exercise in making everybody equal or believing they have equal abilities and talents.

- Ed C.




For those who might not know the reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

I've long thought that the Pundit / Koltar crowd were simply Swine looking down on other Swine, and once again Koltar provides further evidence that such is the case.

Part of the objection to the Swine is that they are egotistical elitists who think their method of gaming is the One True Way of gaming, and it takes someone of high intelligence and skill and talent to know that.

And here is Koltar, again expressing that he knows the One True Way.  That DMing is somehow a mysterious thing which only those with the special talents and skills and intelligence can master and pull off.  Not just "anyone" can or should try to DM.

Anyone can become a decent DM, Koltar.  There is no mystery to it.  World Creation is not something you need to be born to be able to do.  It's something anyone can learn, and encouraging more people to learn how to do it is a wise thing for the industry and its fans.  The smug elitism you portray, where only the elect few can do it, is not a wise thing for the industry or its fans.

Just a pig with lipstick, that's all Koltar is.

I think it's terribly hilarious how many people are only realizing just now what an incoherent unintelligent boob Koltar is, when it's been in plain view all along, they've just let themselves be bought by his only real talent:  complete sycophancy.  

Come on guys, don't you realize what this thread is?  It's his pathetic attempt at playing Pundit to suck up to the moderatorship, just like he's been doing since day one on every site he's ever posted to.  Only he's not actually that good, so it just winds up a godawful parody of a non-point.  The Meet the Spartans or Scary Movie 3 of theRPGsite.  

I think passing any judgement on the greater userbase based on this pathetic drunken rambling is more than a touch off base, like judging the musical quality of a work not on the original recording, but a Dr. Demento parody.

Quote from: Mistwell;333110You're behaving pretty foolishly.

Essentially you are saying I cannot criticize a post by someone here, because I have reposted a post from someone else to another board (and letting them know I was doing that).  It's a completely asinine claim.

Oh, you can criticize anyone to your heart's content. It is just that your criticism has no gravitas to give it substance because you are also, just a pig with lipstick.

Quote from: Mistwell;333110HOW did I "elevate my position" on CM by reposting a post from here?  

The only reason why you posted about theRPGsite on CM was to bitch about criticism of ENWorld.

Quote from: Mistwell;333110How is that "Shilling for EnWorld" (which isn't even where I posted it)?

Pretty fucking obvious, that. Especially when CM is the daughter site of ENWorld.

Quote from: Mistwell;333110And how is my criticizing Koltar's opinion a hypocritical thing to do if I reposted someone else's post to CM?

Because your intent was to troll in order to elevate yourself in the eyes of members of CM/ENWorld. So since you only wished to stir up shit between forums and try to supplant your social inadequicies thusly, you have become your own username. A well empty of content except obscuring mists.[/quote]

Quote from: Mistwell;333110Seriously, your claims makes no sense at all.  I doubt they even make sense to you, and certainly not to anyone else.

If the claims are nonsensical, why are you trying so hard to dismiss them?

Quote from: Mistwell;333110Is it really too much to ask that you actually try and make a point with all this blather?

I have made my point. You are a piece of shit whose opinions hold no substance.

Quote from: Koltar;333086No, they can't.

 Thats just not true.

Gaming is not a Harrison Bergeron exercise in making everybody equal or believing they have equal abilities and talents.

- Ed C. [/url]

Honestly Ed, the word buffoon is remarkably mild by this stage in the thread when you talk bollocks like the above. I get that when people where all 'Whoooah, Go Angry Koltar' the other week you felt the need to go on a few more rants and start swearing for effect, but this forced rage is just ridiculous. It's like watching one of the slow kids at school do something once that makes the others laugh and without realising why, he continually tries to become cool, without realising that he becomes even more of a joke as it happens.

What I find hard to understand is that as someone who works for a gamestore you object to something that:

- would appear to encourage more people to try DMing and maybe do it regularly (which would lead to greater sales for you), maybe make groups more viable in the long-term and possibly provide the opportunity for them to try games other than 4E

- would make at least some people who realise that it's not for them understand the work that DMs do, appreciate it more and maybe not be a pain in the arse as a player. One of the activities when teaching is to have students plan and deliver parts of lessons. Some really take to it, many will go back to participating (but with a better of understanding of why we teach and learn, not just what we learn) but all of them understand it's not easy taking the lead on a regular basis. More appreciative players, with a better understanding of the rules is a bad goal for an introductory/one-shot activity?

I've never played 4E, I don't think it's something I'm really fussed about at this point in time, but I can't imagine that I'd play in a campaign of it for several months and then bitch continually about it online (I suspect because you're not in charge and it's just not GURPS). Honestly, do you ever say anything about the game to the group you're in?

Now, several people have posted that this exercise was designed to de-mystify the duties of the DM in the game. If that is the case, then I speculate that this was done out of a percieved lack of DMs for 4E games and is an effort to generate new 4E DMs. I would also speculate that there was a secondary goal of demonstrating that adventure design in 4E is a fun and entertaining pastime.

So, does this exercise achieve these speculated goals?

I do not think so, primarily because of the human element involved. Not all people make good DMs, however many people can become adequite DMs. Being run through an adventure within which the WotC staff has not made every possible effort to make it enjoyable, but left it up to the widely varied abilities of the participants (through this exercise) not only leaves much to chance, but also shows a definite disinterest in the outcome.

Quote from: jeff37923;333119Oh, you can criticize anyone to your heart's content. It is just that your criticism has no gravitas to give it substance because you are also, just a pig with lipstick.

You're the one guy out there making this claim.  Nobody else thinks "Oh man, he reposted something to CM, therefore lets never read his posts or give them any credibility".  For me to lack gravitas, it would have to be a universal reaction, not Jeff the island of one.

QuoteThe only reason why you posted about theRPGsite on CM was to bitch about criticism of ENWorld.

Um, no.  My repost (at least the recent one we were discussing) was not a criticism of EnWorld.  Are you sure you do not have me confused with someone else?

QuotePretty fucking obvious, that. Especially when CM is the daughter site of ENWorld.

Um...hey retard, this board was started by Spoony, a "daughter" of EnWorld.  In fact, I've been posting to this board longer than you have.

QuoteBecause your intent was to troll in order to elevate yourself in the eyes of members of CM/ENWorld. So since you only wished to stir up shit between forums and try to supplant your social inadequicies thusly, you have become your own username. A well empty of content except obscuring mists.

Dude, my intent in this thread had NOTHING AT ALL to do with EnWorld or CM or any other board.  None of this is me trolling.  My opinion is in fact among the overwhelming majority of opinions in this thread.  Are we ALL shilling for EnWorld when we say Koltar is making no fucking sense with this rant?

Face it...you have no fucking point.  Your contention that if I also post at another board then I should not post here is without merit.  Your claim that if I have ever reposted a post from this board somewhere else means I lack credibility to post here is ludicrous.  Shut the fuck up now little man.  You're whining about how your butt hurts is mildly amusing, but getting boring now.

QuoteIf the claims are nonsensical, why are you trying so hard to dismiss them?

Wait...now if I reply to your accusation then I am proving your accusation?

Right, I gotcha now.  You were the one trolling me.  Nice one! Touche.

Quote from: Mistwell;333130You're the one guy out there making this claim.  Nobody else thinks "Oh man, he reposted something to CM, therefore lets never read his posts or give them any credibility".  For me to lack gravitas, it would have to be a universal reaction, not Jeff the island of one.

I can't speak to any of this, but, just speaking on general principles, running off to Circvs Maximvs to talk smack about theRPGsite is pretty asinine.

Four or Five of you are mkissing the point. (The 4 or 5 calling me buffoon most likely)

What WotC sent out was half baked crap.

YES, I want more DMs and groups playing RPGS, but what they sent out does not really help that goal.

Its a nice shill package for Jones cola with D&D labels, and there is a very nice map and several dozen pre-painted miniatures - but there is no effort at putting something in there that rates a "Game Day".

You've all heard that line practice makes perfect?
 Thats never reeally been totally true. Good or perfect practice makes perfect.
This weird group exercise of making an adventure is bad practice.

- Ed C.

Can someone at least post a link to this oftmentioned CM thread so the rest of us can have some fucking context to these accusations?

Quote from: Koltar;333134This weird group exercise of making an adventure is bad practice.

Why? And why weird?

Quote from: Mistwell;333130Face it...you have no fucking point.  Your contention that if I also post at another board then I should not post here is without merit.  Your claim that if I have ever reposted a post from this board somewhere else means I lack credibility to post here is ludicrous.

Nope, bitch boy, you can post on any forum your heart desires. My point is that if the only posts you make on other forums are to cry and whine about your imagined injustices on this one in order to ingratiate yourself to another forum, then you are fucked up.

Quote from: Halfjack;333137Why? And why weird?

Simple example....

 TV show written by committee/team :
ST: DEEP SPACE NINE

TV show written 85-90% by one guy:
BABYLON 5

 BABYLON 5 was a better show and made more sense.


- Ed C.

Quote from: The Shaman;333132I can't speak to any of this, but, just speaking on general principles, running off to Circvs Maximvs to talk smack about theRPGsite is pretty asinine.

Again, let me be clear.

I post here plenty, and like the community here and consider myself a member of this community.  I've been here a long time, and though I took some time off I am comfortably back and plan on posting here for a long time.

I also post to CM.  And there was ALREADY a thread on the topic at CM, started by someone else.  

I noticed an post here (not this thread, and not this topic) that I thought worth discussing there.  And before I reposted it at CM, I let the user here know (in a PM here) that I was planning on reposting it in case he wanted to comment on it or felt I got something wrong.  He didn't care.

There was nothing asinine about it.  Any more than we here have multiple threads about EnWorld for example.  There was nothing secret or nefarious about it.

Nor is there ANYTHING about it that has even the slightest to do with this topic in this thread.  The only purpose of raising this topic in this thread was for Jeff to make a personal attack on me, in a cross-board and cross-thread manner.

Quote from: J Arcane;333136Can someone at least post a link to this oftmentioned CM thread so the rest of us can have some fucking context to these accusations?

Can we at least do that in a separate thread.  This thread has been derailed enough by that distraction.

In fact, HERE IS A THREAD ON THE TOPIC (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=333146#post333146), complete with a link.  Have at it!

Quote from: Koltar;333140TV show written by committee/team :
ST: DEEP SPACE NINE

TV show written 85-90% by one guy:
BABYLON 5

 BABYLON 5 was a better show and made more sense.

Counter-examples:
Government by one man (dictatorship) vs government by the people (democracy).

I don't accept that group authorship is de facto a bad idea and don't see a reason to believe it from a single exemplar argument based on your own tastes. If you have an argument that has sentences, I'm all ears.

I don't even necessarily disagree with you -- I just want to hear the logic behind your statements so I can decide if I agree with THAT.

Quote from: jeff37923;333139Nope, bitch boy, you can post on any forum your heart desires. My point is that if the only posts you make on other forums are to cry and whine about your imagined injustices on this one in order to ingratiate yourself to another forum, then you are fucked up.

Gotcha.  How fortunate that's not what I do.  I make literally thousands of posts on other forums, including the one you are referring to. I've made 2-3 reposts of stuff here.  Nor have any of those posts been a complaint about an injustice on this board.  

So, now that your concern is addressed, it's time for you to eat a shutthefuckup sandwich.  Or at least take this shit to another thread, because it has fuckall to do with this topic.

Quote from: Mistwell;333145So, now that your concern is addressed, it's time for you to eat a shutthefuckup sandwich.  Or at least take this shit to another thread, because it has fuckall to do with this topic.

It amuses me to watch you get your asshole all a-pucker when called out on your hypocritical bullshit.

Dance, monkey! Dance!

Quote from: Mistwell;333141There was nothing asinine about it.  Any more than we here have multiple threads about EnWorld for example.

Having multiple threads about ENWorld here is asinine as well.

Quote from: Halfjack;333143Counter-examples:
Government by one man (dictatorship) vs government by the people (democracy).

I don't accept that group authorship is de facto a bad idea and don't see a reason to believe it from a single exemplar argument based on your own tastes. If you have an argument that has sentences, I'm all ears.

I don't even necessarily disagree with you -- I just want to hear the logic behind your statements so I can decide if I agree with THAT.

You want logic from Ed? Good luck with that.

And Ed, any chance you could answer my question? Do you ever raise your issues with 4E with the group or DM you're currently playing with or do you just bitch on here for (hilarious) effect?

Quote from: jeff37923;333147It amuses me to watch you get your asshole all a-pucker when called out on your hypocritical bullshit.

Dance, monkey! Dance!

Given the lack of support in this one, your increasingly shrill responses, your shifting of responses as I completely destroy your last position, it's pretty obviously you who has been the dancer in this one.  Or at least, we are both dancing, and I am leading you around as my bitch.

By the way, I am still waiting for an explanation for how this is hypocritical.  I wonder maybe if that word means something different from what you think it means? How is my disagreeing with Koltar's opinion in this thread hypocritical with my reposting GameDaddy's post to CircvsMaxmivs? Or is "hypocritical" in your mind a catch-all phrase for "stuff I don't like"?

Come on, dance this way...I know you can!

Quote from: The Shaman;333150Having multiple threads about ENWorld here is asinine as well.

Indeed.  But to be fair, those threads seem to have died down here.

Quote from: Koltar;333134Four or Five of you are mkissing the point. (The 4 or 5 calling me buffoon most likely)

This is incorrect a Buffoon is,
a person who amuses others by tricks, jokes, odd gestures and postures, etc. Or a person given to coarse or undignified joking.
You are an Idiot,
an utterly foolish or senseless person.

Quote from: Koltar;333134What WotC sent out was half baked crap.

Perhaps, but maybe it was taking a stab at trying something new. Perhaps trying to "Broaden their Horizons". (Boy that quote never gets old does it?

Quote from: Koltar;333134YES, I want more DMs and groups playing RPGS, but what they sent out does not really help that goal.

Really because this was an attempt at exposing new players to the "world" so to speak of building/running a game. It may not be particularly successful at that, but its at least taking a stab at it. Can you name another game putting out something in this vein to encourage people to try DM/GMing?

Quote from: Koltar;333134Its a nice shill package for Jones cola with D&D labels, and there is a very nice map and several dozen pre-painted miniatures - but there is no effort at putting something in there that rates a "Game Day".

What the fuck does this have to do with anything. Quit trying to dodge the topics at hand. Whats a matter running out of even the normal semi-substantial drivel you tend to tout?

Quote from: Koltar;333134You've all heard that line practice makes perfect?
 Thats never reeally been totally true. Good or perfect practice makes perfect.
This weird group exercise of making an adventure is bad practice.

This is the stupidist thing I have heard in a while. So if you not good at something give it up because you never will be? So the first game you ever ran was as good as a game you would run today? You havent gotten any better over the years? Are you trying to say your a fucking special little snowflake that was the king of DM's out of the box?

Quote from: Koltar;333140Simple example....

 TV show written by committee/team :
ST: DEEP SPACE NINE

TV show written 85-90% by one guy:
BABYLON 5

 BABYLON 5 was a better show and made more sense.


- Ed C.

Thats just opinion. You cannot say one is better than the other. This is more of your commissar ideology. You like B5, I like DS9, my father would tell us that we're both wrong and to turn that shit off, and put on the golf match. It means nothing.

Quote from: Mistwell;333154Given the lack of support in this one, your increasingly shrill responses, your shifting of responses as I completely destroy your last position, it's pretty obviously you who has been the dancer in this one.  Or at least, we are both dancing, and I am leading you around as my bitch.

By the way, I am still waiting for an explanation for how this is hypocritical.  I wonder maybe if that word means something different from what you think it means? How is my disagreeing with Koltar's opinion in this thread hypocritical with my reposting GameDaddy's post to CircvsMaxmivs? Or is "hypocritical" in your mind a catch-all phrase for "stuff I don't like"?

Come on, dance this way...I know you can!

I notice how you didn't bother to link to the correct thread on Circvs Maxmivs.

Nice dodge, that one.

Quote from: Ronin;333158This is the stupidist thing I have heard in a while. So if you not good at something give it up because you never will be? So the first game you ever ran was as good as a game you would run today? You havent gotten any better over the years? Are you trying to say your a fucking special little snowflake that was the king of DM's out of the box?

Hey, Koltar has chicks in his group. That's how good he is.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;333163Hey, Koltar has chicks in his group. That's how good he is.

No, they're women you jealous snot.


- Ed

Quote from: Joshua Ford;333163Hey, Koltar has chicks in his group. That's how good he is.

That must make me a fucking stud then.:) Well except I dont brag about it. Because its not special. Their just players having fun in the game.

Besides if you held up a mop, a glazed doughnut, and a vagina do you think he could really tell me which is which?:p

This might be the thread that Jeff and Mistwell keep referring to:

First page:
http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=50075

Most recent page:
http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=50075&page=7

From this section:
http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8

It appears to be a thread that started off by talking crap about Zachary the First, then it morphed into talking about the RpgSite forums.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;333140BABYLON 5 was a better show and made more sense.

Babylon 5 is like the anti-example, when it was written by Committee (Series 1 and 2) it was at its best, when JMS got so powerful he became the sole guiding voice is when you got episodes revolving around songs he wrote while he had the flu. Honestly, JMS like many people, works best when he has other people keeping them in check.

Quote from: Koltar;333165No, they're women you jealous snot.
- Ed

C'mon Ed, answer the question. Do you sit there, silently stewing throughout your 4E game sessions, just waiting to come on here and vent, or do you actually say something to the group, or, I don't know, leave?

Quote from: jeff37923;333162I notice how you didn't bother to link to the correct thread on Circvs Maxmivs.

Nice dodge, that one.

Excuse me? I linked to the only thread I thought you were talking about.  I cannot read your mind.  If you want to post a different link, then fucking do it (but better to do it in the other thread).

Quote from: Koltar;333134This weird group exercise of making an adventure is bad practice.

How would your opinion change if instead this D&D game day thing of "making an adventure" was done as an individual exercise, and not as a group exercise?

Quote from: Imp;333109Or even more to the point, anyone should get to try running a game, right? Who could argue with that?

So I read that little pamphlet. It's linked upthread. Honestly, it reads like six pages of Fuck This, so I can understand the initial reaction Koltar had, in spirit if not in specifics, but it also reads a lot like other 4e material so I might not be the best judge of the audience. The role of the document is sort of confusing, though.

Indeed. Whether or not this thing actually does what it appears to set out to do might be an interesting discussion. But it would have to be in a new thread. You'll never get a real discussion going in this train wreck.

Quote from: The Shaman;333132I can't speak to any of this, but, just speaking on general principles, running off to Circvs Maximvs to talk smack about theRPGsite is pretty asinine.

Agreed. It's like running off to theRPGsite to talk smack about rpg.net.

Quote from: Benoist;333054Once you took the learning curve and feel comfortable with the game, you should think about running the game yourself at some point, just to try it out from the other side of the screen.

No.

Some people are not suited to GM. Many of them don't know it.

Quote from: BenoistNot everyone is cut out to play guitar and engage in solos for the band. It doesn't stop me from wishing everyone would try a bunch of instruments at some point, to see if that's their thing or not.

Quite often, it's obvious that the person should not even try. Don't you ever watch American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance? Some people are utterly bereft of talent, knowledge and skill, and have made zero effort to acquire the knowledge and skill. These people are often notable for their wide-eyed enthusiasm and obvious cluelessness.

When you watch those shows, sometimes you just know before the person sings a note or moves a limb that they'll be terrible.

Likewise, with some people who want to GM.

This is much more so with roleplaying games than dancing or singing because the rpg hobby is essentially about a bunch of rules for having a conversation. And from other conversations with a person, you can often tell what they'll be like during the roleplaying game conversation.

Not everyone should GM, and many should not even give it a go.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Not everyone should GM, and many should not even give it a go.

Why don't you start a thread, old chap ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarTV show written by committee/team :
ST: DEEP SPACE NINE

TV show written 85-90% by one guy:
BABYLON 5

BABYLON 5 was a better show and made more sense.

Quote from: Halfjack;333143Counter-examples:
Government by one man (dictatorship) vs government by the people (democracy).

Government is about the public good.

TV shows and roleplaying games are about entertainment.

Those are different things, and not only in importance. If a show or campaign doesn't entertain you, you can turn it off or walk away. If a government makes you unhappy, it's a lot harder to escape them. That's the reason for greater consultation in government, for balance of powers and all that stuff.

Still, with a government we don't have everyone involved day-to-day in it. Government is not made by the consensus of millions or even hundreds. Instead, we elect and appoint officials to run things for us, and if they're no good, we get rid of them.

Likewise, with a tv show or campaign someone presents us with entertainment; if it's no good, we turn it off, leave the group, etc.

Well Kyle I dont really agree with that. As I've had the chance to encounter the opposite of that. I've had a player that I've DM'ed for and played with. Whose height of creativity is "I hit it with my hammer." But he was given a chance to run a game. Much against my will and want, sensing as you suggested impending doom. But much to my astonishment he did an OK job. It wasnt terribly creative and a little railroading. But for a first effort it was OK. Do I want him to run every week. Fuck no. But do I think he has room for improvement. You bet. Would I play in one of his games again. Sure.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Not everyone should GM, and many should not even give it a go.

Problem is there's usually no way to know. The skills of a good GM are diverse and vague. Someone you might not think'll make a good GM will turn out to be fine, and you'll only know by trying.

Ultimately I agree that not absolutely everyone can be a GM. There are always exceptions. But GMing is not a sacred institution that only the anointed should be permitted to partake of. It's not as big a deal as some GMs make it out to be.

If you are yourself a good GM, you'll know.

Like I said, roleplaying game rules are just rules for a conversation. That's all an rpg session is, a conversation. And each person has their own conversational style, with varying amounts of humour, general knowledge, listening to others, making sure to include others, dominating things, steering the conversation to their areas of interest or discovering others', and so on.

This conversational style isn't going to change drastically just because you put a GM screen in front of the person.

I mean, just look at Ronin's supposed counter-example.

Quote from: RoninI've had a player that I've DM'ed for and played with. Whose height of creativity is "I hit it with my hammer." But he was given a chance to run a game. Much against my will and want, sensing as you suggested impending doom. But much to my astonishment he did an OK job. It wasnt terribly creative and a little railroading. But for a first effort it was OK. Do I want him to run every week. Fuck no. But do I think he has room for improvement. You bet. Would I play in one of his games again. Sure.

Look at the bolded parts. The guy was an uncreative player, and an uncreative GM. Ronin began reluctant to have the guy GM, and he still is, "every week? fuck no." Ronin knew exactly what he'd be like.

You just know. Even without seeing them play, just from having a conversation or two with them.

One point Ronin's touched on is improvement in a GM. Practice makes perfect and all that. Some people may want to set aside some sessions to help a GM get better. That's perfectly valid, nothing wrong with it.

I wouldn't do it, because at 38 with marriage and kids planned, I only have so many game sessions left in my life, I'm not going to spend any time on sessions where I'm expecting anything less than great fun. "It was okay, I guess," is not what I want to hear. So I wouldn't want to be part of Gamemastering 101's Tuesday night tutorial disguised as a game session. Fuck that.

Nonetheless, what's good for me is not good for all, and if someone else wants to give their time to develop someone else's abilities, good for them, I respect that.

But I thought he would be far, far worse. With practice he could become a decent GM. But I can understand not wanting to spend the time to help him develop. Especially with the limited time available to some of us during a week.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219No.

Some people are not suited to GM. Many of them don't know it.

They can't know until they try. Which is the whole point.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Quite often, it's obvious that the person should not even try. Don't you ever watch American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance? Some people are utterly bereft of talent, knowledge and skill, and have made zero effort to acquire the knowledge and skill. These people are often notable for their wide-eyed enthusiasm and obvious cluelessness.

When you watch those shows, sometimes you just know before the person sings a note or moves a limb that they'll be terrible.

Likewise, you'll find some players who absolutely don't seem to be suited for GMing who, once they sit behind the screen, will actually do a pretty decent job, and grow to like it, later becoming outstanding GMs.

I have one friend like this. You let him sit at the game table as a player, and the guy just can't help himself: he will joke with other players, make faces, puns... all the usual immersion breaking stuff (and he's really hilarious at it, by the way). He just doesn't seem to have the necessary attention span. But then, one day, he decided to try GMing Cthulhu. CALL OF CTHULHU, for God's sakes. One of the most ambiance-based tabletop RPGs out there. And you know what? When he ran the game, he was actually focused. His NPCs were sound. He used his natural silliness to his advantage when playing NPC bums and such. The game ended up very, very cool. And I didn't see it coming.

Can we get back to Koltar, the mop and the glazed doughnut?

Quote from: Aos;333242Can we get back to Koltar, the mop and the glazed doughnut?

I could really do without hearing anymore about his sex life.

Quote from: Aos;333242Can we get back to Koltar, the mop and the glazed doughnut?

You play some fucked up games of Clue, dood.

Quote from: Mistwell;333157Indeed.  But to be fair, those threads seem to have died down here.

Resistance is futile.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333215Agreed. It's like running off to theRPGsite to talk smack about rpg.net.

No, that's even worse.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Don't you ever watch American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance?

No, but I think it's hilarious that you do. ;)

What can I do, my woman controls the remote.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333275What can I do, my woman controls the remote.

"The remote?" That's what they call it in Oz?

Does she keep "the remote" in a box on the mantle? How often does she let you touch it? Can you take it without asking her for permission first?



Okay, I could go on with this for hours, but I should really just stop now.

in Soviet Russia, remote controls woman!

Tuesday night I stopped in at the other main game store locally.

 This past Saturday "Game Day" they ran 7 groups for D&D Game Day over the course of the day. Their planned 8th session got cancelled.

This store might be considered our main competition - but if they are we're pretty friendly as competitors go. About 50% to two-thirds the stuff we sell overlaps what they have to sell...just the quantities vary. For example: the store I work at has a bigger selection of WARHAMMER 40K products than they do, they have a large selection of used and older games includsing older editions of D&D - we do not , we just stock currently in-print stuff.

So I asked that store's manager what he thought of the Game Day Kit.
 He said that he and his staff (two of them are his sons) looked it over and knew that it was not the kind of 'Game Day' experience their regular customers normally look for - or the rookies who were signing on the siugn-up sheets.

He then called his WotC contact and asked for permission to hand out the kits a week or so early to the Dungeon Masters involved and let them make it into more of a regular dungeon adventure. His WoTc contact had no problem with that idea - and understood the issues or possible problems with the original kit (You know the stuff that I ranted about)

That store's manager said that they should have titled it as a "DM Workshop kit" and not as a Game Day adventure.

By-the-way, the guy I'm talking about runs a 1st or 2nd edition D&D game in the basement of his store every Sunday for some of the regulars there.  When I've stopped in on Sundays to browse he has had this gorgeous huge map of Greyhawk that is under a pane of glass that makes up a huge portion of this large table they use for their game sessions.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;333863His WoTc contact had no problem with that idea - and understood the issues or possible problems with the original kit (You know the stuff that I ranted about)

"Oh there is either 'story gaming' or 'forgie' influence in the writing of this and terminology."

No, I don't think we do know - we're still waiting on this.

Seanchai

Quote from: DeadUematsu;332663I don't see what the problem is. People making collaborative adventures and then playing them is a sin now?

Only in the eyes of people who lack the skills to pull it off. ;)

Quote from: ICFTI;333964Only in the eyes of people who lack the skills to pull it off. ;)

Sure, but we're also talking about a group effort here. All you need is a person or two who doesn't possess the right attributes - whether those are the ability to come up with a good scenario or just plain cooperate as a group - and things don't turn out as well.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;333974Sure, but we're also talking about a group effort here. All you need is a person or two who doesn't possess the right attributes - whether those are the ability to come up with a good scenario or just plain cooperate as a group - and things don't turn out as well.

It was supposed to be a simple intro, and the product wasn't expected to be art. Considering it was supposed to be used by some people who were total n00bs to DMing(if not D&D and/or the entire hobby in general), I think your expectations are unrealistic. You're not going to take someone from n00b to l337 in an hour, and nobody was expecting to. When a product doesn't do something it's not intended to do, I have a hard time calling that a failure.

Not to mention nobody was going to be forced to do the adventure-building part if they really didn't want to. You're totally overreacting.

Quote from: Koltar;333863His WoTc contact had no problem with that idea - and understood the issues or possible problems with the original kit (You know the stuff that I ranted about)

Was that in another thread?

Quote from: Fifth Element;334010Was that in another thread?

No this thread, post #214

Seriously, the OP is made of awfulness and fail. Now watch as Koltar tries to appoint himself as Orthodoxy Comissar of Gaming, second only to the Great Inquisitor of the One True Way.

Sad.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;334005...I think your expectations are unrealistic.

I don't have any expectations regarding it, per se, save that if you take a bunch of people - just a random assortment of people - and ask them to work together on a task like the one we're discussing, it'll take longer than expected, won't produce even results, will result in disagreements, etc..

Quote from: GeekEclectic;334005You're totally overreacting.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. For example, I said (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=332736&postcount=47), "But I thought it did a decent job of doing what it was supposed to: give people a wee taste of 4e. I attended one of these for 3e and it was pretty much the same: a flimsy reason to go adventuring, a couple of encounters, and a congratulations at the end."

Seanchai
Seanchai