Quote from: Koltar;333134This weird group exercise of making an adventure is bad practice.

How would your opinion change if instead this D&D game day thing of "making an adventure" was done as an individual exercise, and not as a group exercise?

Quote from: Imp;333109Or even more to the point, anyone should get to try running a game, right? Who could argue with that?

So I read that little pamphlet. It's linked upthread. Honestly, it reads like six pages of Fuck This, so I can understand the initial reaction Koltar had, in spirit if not in specifics, but it also reads a lot like other 4e material so I might not be the best judge of the audience. The role of the document is sort of confusing, though.

Indeed. Whether or not this thing actually does what it appears to set out to do might be an interesting discussion. But it would have to be in a new thread. You'll never get a real discussion going in this train wreck.

Quote from: The Shaman;333132I can't speak to any of this, but, just speaking on general principles, running off to Circvs Maximvs to talk smack about theRPGsite is pretty asinine.

Agreed. It's like running off to theRPGsite to talk smack about rpg.net.

Quote from: Benoist;333054Once you took the learning curve and feel comfortable with the game, you should think about running the game yourself at some point, just to try it out from the other side of the screen.

No.

Some people are not suited to GM. Many of them don't know it.

Quote from: BenoistNot everyone is cut out to play guitar and engage in solos for the band. It doesn't stop me from wishing everyone would try a bunch of instruments at some point, to see if that's their thing or not.

Quite often, it's obvious that the person should not even try. Don't you ever watch American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance? Some people are utterly bereft of talent, knowledge and skill, and have made zero effort to acquire the knowledge and skill. These people are often notable for their wide-eyed enthusiasm and obvious cluelessness.

When you watch those shows, sometimes you just know before the person sings a note or moves a limb that they'll be terrible.

Likewise, with some people who want to GM.

This is much more so with roleplaying games than dancing or singing because the rpg hobby is essentially about a bunch of rules for having a conversation. And from other conversations with a person, you can often tell what they'll be like during the roleplaying game conversation.

Not everyone should GM, and many should not even give it a go.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Not everyone should GM, and many should not even give it a go.

Why don't you start a thread, old chap ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KoltarTV show written by committee/team :
ST: DEEP SPACE NINE

TV show written 85-90% by one guy:
BABYLON 5

BABYLON 5 was a better show and made more sense.

Quote from: Halfjack;333143Counter-examples:
Government by one man (dictatorship) vs government by the people (democracy).

Government is about the public good.

TV shows and roleplaying games are about entertainment.

Those are different things, and not only in importance. If a show or campaign doesn't entertain you, you can turn it off or walk away. If a government makes you unhappy, it's a lot harder to escape them. That's the reason for greater consultation in government, for balance of powers and all that stuff.

Still, with a government we don't have everyone involved day-to-day in it. Government is not made by the consensus of millions or even hundreds. Instead, we elect and appoint officials to run things for us, and if they're no good, we get rid of them.

Likewise, with a tv show or campaign someone presents us with entertainment; if it's no good, we turn it off, leave the group, etc.

Well Kyle I dont really agree with that. As I've had the chance to encounter the opposite of that. I've had a player that I've DM'ed for and played with. Whose height of creativity is "I hit it with my hammer." But he was given a chance to run a game. Much against my will and want, sensing as you suggested impending doom. But much to my astonishment he did an OK job. It wasnt terribly creative and a little railroading. But for a first effort it was OK. Do I want him to run every week. Fuck no. But do I think he has room for improvement. You bet. Would I play in one of his games again. Sure.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Not everyone should GM, and many should not even give it a go.

Problem is there's usually no way to know. The skills of a good GM are diverse and vague. Someone you might not think'll make a good GM will turn out to be fine, and you'll only know by trying.

Ultimately I agree that not absolutely everyone can be a GM. There are always exceptions. But GMing is not a sacred institution that only the anointed should be permitted to partake of. It's not as big a deal as some GMs make it out to be.

If you are yourself a good GM, you'll know.

Like I said, roleplaying game rules are just rules for a conversation. That's all an rpg session is, a conversation. And each person has their own conversational style, with varying amounts of humour, general knowledge, listening to others, making sure to include others, dominating things, steering the conversation to their areas of interest or discovering others', and so on.

This conversational style isn't going to change drastically just because you put a GM screen in front of the person.

I mean, just look at Ronin's supposed counter-example.

Quote from: RoninI've had a player that I've DM'ed for and played with. Whose height of creativity is "I hit it with my hammer." But he was given a chance to run a game. Much against my will and want, sensing as you suggested impending doom. But much to my astonishment he did an OK job. It wasnt terribly creative and a little railroading. But for a first effort it was OK. Do I want him to run every week. Fuck no. But do I think he has room for improvement. You bet. Would I play in one of his games again. Sure.

Look at the bolded parts. The guy was an uncreative player, and an uncreative GM. Ronin began reluctant to have the guy GM, and he still is, "every week? fuck no." Ronin knew exactly what he'd be like.

You just know. Even without seeing them play, just from having a conversation or two with them.

One point Ronin's touched on is improvement in a GM. Practice makes perfect and all that. Some people may want to set aside some sessions to help a GM get better. That's perfectly valid, nothing wrong with it.

I wouldn't do it, because at 38 with marriage and kids planned, I only have so many game sessions left in my life, I'm not going to spend any time on sessions where I'm expecting anything less than great fun. "It was okay, I guess," is not what I want to hear. So I wouldn't want to be part of Gamemastering 101's Tuesday night tutorial disguised as a game session. Fuck that.

Nonetheless, what's good for me is not good for all, and if someone else wants to give their time to develop someone else's abilities, good for them, I respect that.

But I thought he would be far, far worse. With practice he could become a decent GM. But I can understand not wanting to spend the time to help him develop. Especially with the limited time available to some of us during a week.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219No.

Some people are not suited to GM. Many of them don't know it.

They can't know until they try. Which is the whole point.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;333219Quite often, it's obvious that the person should not even try. Don't you ever watch American Idol or So You Think You Can Dance? Some people are utterly bereft of talent, knowledge and skill, and have made zero effort to acquire the knowledge and skill. These people are often notable for their wide-eyed enthusiasm and obvious cluelessness.

When you watch those shows, sometimes you just know before the person sings a note or moves a limb that they'll be terrible.

Likewise, you'll find some players who absolutely don't seem to be suited for GMing who, once they sit behind the screen, will actually do a pretty decent job, and grow to like it, later becoming outstanding GMs.

I have one friend like this. You let him sit at the game table as a player, and the guy just can't help himself: he will joke with other players, make faces, puns... all the usual immersion breaking stuff (and he's really hilarious at it, by the way). He just doesn't seem to have the necessary attention span. But then, one day, he decided to try GMing Cthulhu. CALL OF CTHULHU, for God's sakes. One of the most ambiance-based tabletop RPGs out there. And you know what? When he ran the game, he was actually focused. His NPCs were sound. He used his natural silliness to his advantage when playing NPC bums and such. The game ended up very, very cool. And I didn't see it coming.

Can we get back to Koltar, the mop and the glazed doughnut?

Quote from: Aos;333242Can we get back to Koltar, the mop and the glazed doughnut?

I could really do without hearing anymore about his sex life.

Quote from: Aos;333242Can we get back to Koltar, the mop and the glazed doughnut?

You play some fucked up games of Clue, dood.

Quote from: Mistwell;333157Indeed.  But to be fair, those threads seem to have died down here.

Resistance is futile.

Quote from: Fifth Element;333215Agreed. It's like running off to theRPGsite to talk smack about rpg.net.

No, that's even worse.