Quote from: Machinegun Blue;402754Whether or not WW truly was innovative at the time isn't important. What's important is that a lot of people thought so.

Exactly.  At one point in time, a large portion of the market decided they liked it and it was what they wanted and that they were kind of bored with the old thing.  It's no different than the usual sort of cultural changes that occur over time with things like music, clothing, art, etc.

Ok, so now that we have in fact established that there was nothing really revolutionary in WW's levels of art quality (besides my own example in palladium and Shadowrun, people have pointed out WFRP1, Stormbringer, TORG, and several other examples of how art was already evolving vastly in quality before WW came along) we now have the WW-defenders stating that the REAL thing that mattered was just that people thought it was innovative, whether or not it was.

In a way, that's a good point.

The thing is, if you can't show that WW in any way really WAS innovative, from the objective sense, then that's a pretty fucking good argument for WW's villainy rather than heroism, since you're pretty much admitting that WW ended up being a painted-on facade that turned the entire gaming hobby into the direction of glossy shallowness without any real substance or adding anything really new besides pretentious attitude.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;402996Ok, so now that we have in fact established that there was nothing really revolutionary in WW's levels of art quality (besides my own example in palladium and Shadowrun, people have pointed out WFRP1, Stormbringer, TORG, and several other examples of how art was already evolving vastly in quality before WW came along) we now have the WW-defenders stating that the REAL thing that mattered was just that people thought it was innovative, whether or not it was.

In a way, that's a good point.

The thing is, if you can't show that WW in any way really WAS innovative, from the objective sense, then that's a pretty fucking good argument for WW's villainy rather than heroism, since you're pretty much admitting that WW ended up being a painted-on facade that turned the entire gaming hobby into the direction of glossy shallowness without any real substance or adding anything really new besides pretentious attitude.

RPGPundit

You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Really, did WW ever use pics of any real gamers in real people's homes or libraries or places most gamers game? I didn't see any.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Really, did WW ever use pics of any real gamers in real people's homes or libraries or places most gamers game? I didn't see any.

Pictures where? Where would these pictures be posted? I never seen any "real gamers" in libraries in any Wizard/TSR/Chaosium/Fasa material? And is this is a reason to quit a game; that the poster boys didn't look like you?!?

Quote from: RPGPundit;402996The thing is, if you can't show that WW in any way really WAS innovative, from the objective sense, then that's a pretty fucking good argument for WW's villainy rather than heroism, since you're pretty much admitting that WW ended up being a painted-on facade that turned the entire gaming hobby into the direction of glossy shallowness without any real substance or adding anything really new besides pretentious attitude.

WW just published stuff they hoped would sell. If anything, it would be the people who thought that it was innovative that would be the villians here.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Really, did WW ever use pics of any real gamers in real people's homes or libraries or places most gamers game? I didn't see any.

What the hell are you talking about?

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;403006Pictures where? Where would these pictures be posted? I never seen any "real gamers" in libraries in any Wizard/TSR/Chaosium/Fasa material? And is this is a reason to quit a game; that the poster boys didn't look like you?!?

*SIGH* Another blockhead.

In some of the later WW products I got there were a lot of B&W photos of the aformentioned 20 something goth models taking the place of art.

TSR/chaosium/fase never, that I saw, did this sort of thing, their art was actual art related to the game, not pics of wanna be actors looking to pick up a few bucks.

And any reason I decide to quit a game is a fair reason reason for ME to quit it, understand?!?!?!

Quote from: Cylonophile;403069*SIGH* Another blockhead.

In some of the later WW products I got there were a lot of B&W photos of the aformentioned 20 something goth models taking the place of art.

TSR/chaosium/fase never, that I saw, did this sort of thing, their art was actual art related to the game, not pics of wanna be actors looking to pick up a few bucks.

And any reason I decide to quit a game is a fair reason reason for ME to quit it, understand?!?!?!

But it's so fucking stupid. Photos are art, am I right? I mean, you realize that none of your gaming buddies were actually vampires, right? I'm not going to quit playing Runequest because none of my friends look like ducks.

I would have kept my little story to myself is all I'm saying.

Quote from: Cylonophile;403001You know you've got something here.

One reason I quit WW was because all their pix were a bunch of 20 something gen x goth model types who looked nothing like any gamers I know, and they were often taken in grungy bars that most gamers would have the intelligence scores to avoid.

Hilarious. In keeping with nerd speak, I think Charisma scores have more to do with this than Intelligence. I mean, Jesus, one of the reasons you quit playing White Wolf games was because they used photos of people who, because of their attractiveness, weren't required to sequester themselves in dark basements on Friday night? In a modern setting, having to do with vampires, this is a major objection? Really?

Quote from: Patrick Y.;403075Hilarious. In keeping with nerd speak, I think Charisma scores have more to do with this than Intelligence. I mean, Jesus, one of the reasons you quit playing White Wolf games was because they used photos of people who, because of their attractiveness, weren't required to sequester themselves in dark basements on Friday night? In a modern setting, having to do with vampires, this is a major objection? Really?

If you wanna see it that way, fine. I see it as a company acting like it doesn't want to acknowledge a lot of it's customers don't look like gen x fashion models and is almost pointedly ignoring them, so fuck them.

Do you have an example of the pictures you're referring to, because I was quite an avid WW consumer until... Kindred of the East, roughly, and I'm not quite sure what you're talking about?

Quote from: Benoist;403086Do you have an example of the pictures you're referring to, because I was quite an avid WW consumer until... Kindred of the East, roughly, and I'm not quite sure what you're talking about?

It's been a while, benny, but it might have been their LARP boxed set and at least one other product.

BTW, for those with their heads up their ass, the pics really were just the last straw. The whole theme of the game was getting waay to black for me. Some of the things they suggested, like having a guy with kids play himself in the game and having him kill one of his children in the game was just "MAN THIS ISN'T FUN IT'S JUST FUCKING SICK!!!!"

Quote from: Cylonophile;403080If you wanna see it that way, fine. I see it as a company acting like it doesn't want to acknowledge a lot of it's customers don't look like gen x fashion models and is almost pointedly ignoring them, so fuck them.

And here, I just quit playing Vampire because I got tired of playing vampires. It never occured to me that somebody would quit because the vampires weren't drawn from the ranks of the gothapotamus.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;403094And here, I just quit playing Vampire because I got tired of playing vampires. It never occured to me that somebody would quit because the vampires weren't drawn from the ranks of the gothapotamus.

I burnt out first because I completely disconnected from the WW products around the time of Kindred of the East, which is the first that really made me go "What the fuck is this?!" (I have to mention Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand too, which was a very cool supplement from a background standpoint, but which actually modified the whole game in undesirable ways, with hindsight), the metaplot just got so freaking bloated, and the crossovers just became ridiculous, and the supplements just started to plain suck... etc. Second, I just wanted a hiatus from my Paris by Night which had been running for eight or nine years straight, and got back into D&D after a break, straight for 3rd ed.

Quote from: Benoist;403098I burnt out first because I completely disconnected from the WW products around the time of Kindred of the East, which is the first that really made me go "What the fuck is this?!", the metaplot just got so freaking bloated, and the crossovers just became ridiculous, and the supplements just started to plain suck... etc. Second, I just wanted a hiatus from my Paris by Night which had been running for eight or nine years straight, and got back into D&D after a break, straight for 3rd ed.

I never got into all that metaplot stuff. I only ever played a couple games here and there that never really went anywhere. A lot of abortive games by first time GMs too. I did run a short Gurps Vampire campaign (strange when you think about it) and a few games of Changeling. I view Vampire the same way I view Toon. Fun for a while but nothing really to get stuck on.